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chockfull

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chockfull last won the day on June 14

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About chockfull

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    Do I have kids or did I read it in a thread?
  1. Okay so this has come up in several discussions, so I wanted to put it in a place where cult questioners can find it better. Mainstream Christianity teaches according to I Corinthians 12 - which incorporates Jesus body as an analogy or figure representing each follower as they band together. This teaching would dovetail into his ceremonial handling of the Last Supper - and the eucharist, or "body and blood" of Christ teaching is a common one in Christianity today. It is very clear that Jesus vision as well as God's vision to Paul was of Jesus followers being united together and functioning as a human body functions today with each of its parts working together. Victor Paul Wierwille, and every ensuing Way International President after him, taught and supported the idea of a "household of God". Their logic is since there is so much division in Christianity today Jesus couldn't mean all the denominations since they will never work together. Therefore the logic is the "one body" has to describe a certain group of people, a subset of the entire body of Christ that is inspired by the present truth and moves as one and works together at a very high level exactly like the pulse of the human body with the brain sending signals to the hand and the hand responding immediately. The Way and splinters label this subset the "household of God" and seperate off from the body of Christ in mainstream Christianity practically and organizationally. The Way Presidents have used this teaching to set themselves up in the position of Jesus as the head of the body of Christ, and to have complete authority over this "household of God" including the expectation that they respond quickly like the human body does. They ignore considering and discussing other Christians in the body of Christ. They work with no other Christian organization. They consider no other Christian input. They have a little closed system they have built for themselves where they have absolute control and are accountable to nobody. This teaching and functioning is ANTICHRIST. Why? Every single implementation of it sets up a single person or small elite group of people as the intercessor between the follower and God. There is an inordinate amount of control. There is the crossing of boundaries in lives. There is the using of people for their own ease. People aren't free to make decisions for themselves and their families with God and Jesus, they have to obtain approval from overseers. The logic is "since we are all one body, why wouldn't you want to share these things?" and they use good words and fair speeches to cross boundaries and control people and their finances and futures. ANTICHRISTS So folks you heard it first here on the 'SPOT. THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. THERE IS A BODY OF CHRIST.
  2. Can salvation be lost?

    Lately my view on this has been "anything except the polar opposite which we see as common occurrences in the Way and splinter groups". Accepting Christ - I would feel no other need to embellish that phrase. People who make Christ Lord are not tricked into it. Plenty of instruction in scripture for this one. Find a place in His body - WHAT IT IS NOT: - I was a person with a high position in the Way, to preserve "my effort and years of studying scripture" I will start a new splinter group with myself as the "leader, director, originator, founder, etc". WHAT IT IS - a healthy acknowledgement that the teachings of the Way regarding a "household of God" as somehow separate and more elite than the "body of Christ" are antichrist, and actions that show appreciation for other members in particular in the body of Christ including those in denominations, in the Catholic church, in cities and communities across the world as community Christian churches. Christians acknowledge and appreciate and collaborate with other Christians, not isolating themselves off into a little small group called a "twig" or called whatever with a "twig coordinator" or a "whatever coordinator" who is or isn't calling themselves that at the moment like the RnR railroad folks. This is only answering the question "what do I mean by accepting Christ and finding a place in His body".
  3. Dispensationalism

    Sure - oikonomia and usages sound like a reasonable start. I am not 100% convinced that doing "word studies" on Greek words is going to present a great deal of enlightenment regarding "the ages" or "administrations of time" types of views. The LXX isn't as precise as the Hebrew OT. And I'm going to obviate one of my other problems. I reject a fundamentalist viewpoint of being able to do mathematical type proofs with scriptures. I see the Greek word for scribe which is "grammeteis" - or grammatician. Jesus taught much on the Pharisees and Scribes. His teachings on Pharisees are the core concept behind a favorite book around here "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". His teachings on scribes and Pharisees to me really pinpoint the heart of the Way and splinter groups. How Jesus teaches they operate, you can observe them operating in that fashion. I personally am recovering from acting in that fashion. So my views on scripture are influenced by that. The expanded ideas surrounding "oikonomia" of the pharmacy dispensing help and medication, and the stewardship angles to me strike a chord because my view of scriptures is as inspiration. I view it less as a rulebook of rules to live your life by, although if I examine my life I do see good things in living up to the list categories. The less people understand good heart and motive and inspiration, the more they are going to require rules to live life. The more I see people focused on rules the less freedom and grace I see in daily life. On the other side of this discussion, you present a valid point. If we aren't going to examine ideas and terms using the Bible and inherent definitions, then to what standard will the discussion adhere? None I suppose. I wish I had a better answer for myself to your questions than "somewhere in the middle of digging into detail, using good common sense, and having an active prayer life seeking guidance". But unfortunately that is the best I have at the moment. Where are you at on this?
  4. Dispensationalism

    The second rule of fight club is whenever someone breaks the first rule of fight club, you must instruct them that research means re-search.
  5. Can salvation be lost?

    Bullinger, Darby, Scofield - yes, pretty much the usual suspects of dispensationalism. And who VP lifted the idea from. From my perspective, all 3 had a huge propensity for "lists". For a little jingle, think of it like "if your life must be controlled by lists, you might be a dispensational - ist". LOL. As for the Way's tendencies, since VP lifted so much material, rather than doing the honest work to get there on his own, that kind of left the Way stranded in a point in time. That point in time was the one day snow on the gas pumps appeared to VP. Or at the point in time VP lifted the material. Whatever more depth and revision in a field that would have occured since then is completely bypassed by the Way, as their view is they have already received all of the modern day revelation they are going to. On this I can agree - that God isn't talking to those idiots any time soon. But anyway, this is doctrinal. I like your line you initially pursued here of dispensation = "handling the affairs of another". By the most basic least humanly embellished definition that provides good insight. We are on the planet Earth handling the affairs of another. Moses and Aaron had to do that with rules about cows. Paul did it by writing letters mostly in some form of danger, persecution, or imprisonment. I can connect with that concept without "fundamentalist rose colored glasses". Where I diverge from you is in your conclusion of the Bible as one organic whole, revealing a marvelous and profound unity. Paul's life and Moses life looked not a whole lot at all like one another. And neither do their writings. And you get into CGT - Critical Greek Textualism, and who decides the Canon of scripture? You? Me? Joe in plumbing? Next, what about all of the apocrypha in the Catholic Bible? What council decided their veracity or lack thereof? More recently, what about other scroll writings being discovered, older than the ones our modern Bible is cobbled together from? Handling the affairs of God on earth. That simplifies it. What do we do In our day? Accept Christ and find a place in the body of Christ. For cult people, don't be an antichrist.
  6. Can salvation be lost?

    What nuances of "salvation" verses "rescue" do we have going on scripturally, doctrinally, etc? Are they the same? Similar?
  7. Wierwille's Personal Prophecy To Me

    The real fathers in our lives are so much bigger than the fake "Father in da Word" crapola that the vicster was supposed to be. And sky you are a real father too. Real > Fake
  8. Dispensationalism

    Without my former "fundy" sunglasses on, my read of Ephesians 3 is Paul writing a letter to some Gentiles talking about his love for them and how he felt God wanted him to work with them specifically despite his more traditional background. Ephesians is a cool letter - full of love and positives. Power words and images.
  9. Can salvation be lost?

    Wierwille as the common denominator was the walking contradiction IMO. With this word and idea, "dispensational" I think it also merits a close definition. I don't think it is an "all or nothing" concept, like Wierwille tried to dramatize many aspects of doctrinal Christianity to create a mental separation in the minds of his little cult followers. If the common currency is livestock, then offerings in livestock are common sense. That is a "dispensational approach to scripture". However, the paper that Rico wrote at RFR's behest as a document in positional support of their debt policy, which concluded that certain truths like debt and tithing transcend dispensations, but others don't, that is not a "dispensational approach to scripture", it is a "dishonest approach to scripture".
  10. Can salvation be lost?

    In Romans chapter 10, it seems that the importance of right living, repentance, and obedience aren't stressed so much, but the recognition of a personal Lord and a belief God raised Him from the dead. The Tanakh and new covenant writings which you are more familiar with than myself seem to have a healthy balance of current action and future anticipation from your descriptions which I'm sure are true. All good. Salvation - as a definition - deliverance from present and future: 1. Judgement 2. Hostile Forces 3. Sin For #1 = deliverance from judgement - for the future - this is a common view of when God comes down in judgement and makes everything right and kicks @$$ and takes names I will be saved from all of that experience on the negative side. I guess I can watch through a glass or something? As far as deliverance from present judgement, please help me out with that one, because I'm not seeing it anywhere. God isn't judging me now? OK. He's not judging the Satanist up the street either. But you know who still does judge me? People. And about at every step of life too. Legal system. Job. Culture. Hobbies. Friendship. Dating. I can go on and on. And you know who are probably worse at judging people than other groups? Christians. #2 Hostile Forces - Future perceived ones, sure. Present day ones still come at a person. #3 Sin - now here's an interesting one with respect to salvation. Saved from sin. So you mean once I'm a Christian I'm saved from sinning in my life? No. How about sinful habits? No, on you. Saved from the consequences of sin, which are death? OK, scriptural there - that's the idea. But the consequences of what sin? Get born again today, live like the devil for 50 years, get out of jail free, millions still smoking? Be a drunken lecher causing pain, sorrow, anguish, the breakup of families and marriages, and suicide? Saved from consequences of sin being eternal death? Who goes through that? Satan only? Many many many questions that glossed over definitions IMO don't come close to addressing. Daniel 12 as a section of scripture is noted and marked on this thread w/r to salvation topic. Thanks for the conversation, spotters.
  11. Can salvation be lost?

    Interesting and I don't think you are far off with the definitions here mainstream wise. So weighing this against the salvation topic, we have God saving us from: 1. My enemies 2. Physical Sickness and/or death So for #1, what enemies do I have in a modern society? Politics? Neighbor disputes? Frenemies? Don't see too much protection evidenced there. If the idea is interlaced in scripture that a strong army and victory over military enemies is part of this, then we get even more interesting with Christians in both the US and Russia. Whose side is God on? Putin's or Trump's? How would you categorize a wolf in sheep's clothing? Enemy? Why is it I seem to experience more than my ample share of all of the things I am supposed to be "saved" from? On #2 there is no tangible evidence that Christians experience sickness and death at any less rate than the surrounding populace. Do you get sick less? So in discussing "salvation" as the common topic around with which we are arguing whether or not we need a lifetime of compliance to achieve, is there nothing more than an "avoid the fire and brimstone" motivation on that side? Well, I guess the Christians would talk about "rewards". But isn't that something usually categorized as completely separate from salvation? So come on, now. If you want to sell me salvation, can't you at least paint a pretty picture about choirs of angels and living with Jesus and not being groped in security traveling through the air? Otherwise, what motivation do I have for a lifetime of compliance with fear of losing it?
  12. Wikipedia Scrubbed?

    i'm not sure I can tell what was scrubbed. I read through the page. IMO who cares. 82 footnote references for a wikipedia page LOL. And the scrubbing seems to remove sentences. Whatever. They stink to high heaven no matter how many words you remove, and their wikipedia page is about as relevant to modern day Christianity as they are with their Westboro Baptist hate attitude, convoluted weird doctrines, and totalitarian heavy-handed rule of their followers, just like all the documentaries on TV document that cults do.
  13. yah I'm looking at it. Jalvis may possibly have some logic but you just can't get past the guy's obvious worship of himself and his own thoughts. I swear it is just so tedious to work through this BS. Self-promotion interlaced all the way through, with the beginning section dedicated to establishing his credentials and credibility. "I'm the most original OG of the fired OG's in '87 from the Way". At the end pitching his over 50 hours of Youtube teachings, along with 3 linked specific teachings. Multiple times he talks about how he doesn't have the time to dissect Dan's paper, then proceeds to quote a dozen verses and teach anyway. Incongruent, inauthentic. His sidekick for whatever ministry he is currently bilking followers out of money with his "coffee can" Jon T0uchstone came on here and tried to dialog, then bailed pretty quickly. His main point is that speaking in tongues is proof that you're born again. Jesus taught that you know people by their fruit. As a further explanation on that topic, here on GSC we had quite the long discussion and investigation into factual evidence that exists in the world today regarding speaking in tongues, and how it is commonly counterfeited. I'll search for the links if any are interested. Actually if you want a summary of this 13-page self-promotional document, I think I can give it to you in a 19 second YouTube video and spare you the agony of watching any more of Jallyroll's teaching videos.
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