"But ultimately, what good will it do when possession of child porn is treated so lightly in this country?
The exemplary work done by Toronto Police led to 27 arrests, including that of Carl Treleaven, a 49-year-old Edmonton father who was on his computer when police raided his home in January. They discovered more than 90 chat participants were waiting to download images and video from Treleaven's vast 20 gigabyte collection of child porn.
After pleading guilty, Treleaven apologized in court last week for being an administrator for the global chat room. Yes, he knew perfectly well that he was helping to run an international porn ring. Yes, he knew that he was sharing photos and videos of people raping young children, including their own.
Yet, for all that, even the prosecutor on the case is asking that Treleaven serve only 31/2 years in jail."
Chas, I don't quite understand what you think you're reading. It isn't what I'm writing. It's clear to me that you're so certain of what you think I'm saying that you've only skimmed my posts.
For instance, where you say something like "but the crime has already been committed..." referring to the safe harbor idea. That is exactly opposite of what I said.
No Chas. You didn't read it correctly. If I'm talking down to you, it's not intentional. But you haven't understood me, and I don't think it's so complicated.
I am willing to discuss or defend what I've said, but it gets a little nutty when I have to defend myself against things I plainly haven't said, and it's right there in black and white.
There are a lot of people here who have been hurt by pedophiles. You can't come in here and say I'm defending the pedophiles in front of them. You'd be wrong anyway, but on this thread it's damned irresponsible.
What do you think my agenda is, anyway? To make the world safer for pedophiles? If you think so, then you ARE an idiot. No, I don't think you are. I do think you're being a little rash because it's an emotional topic and it got the better of you. (No, that's not condescending, that's the truth. When I consider what you're saying above I'd be within my rights to say a lot more about it. Your comments are far more offensive than they are just wrong.)
I have a little girl and I am constantly watching for evidence of some predator. I look for evidence. I look for hints of evidence. I look for nuances that might suggest hints of evidence. I do that because she's too young to understand, and I don't want to frighten her. But I know one thing for sure. I've met pedophiles, and I didn't recognize them. Maybe they're relatives, neighbors, co-workers, day care workers or God knows who else. I cannot read their minds.
But I am sure that at least some of them don't want to be, and some of them have not yet acted out. I wish there was some place for them to get help because I know that if they don't get help they will eventually get to work on that statistical list of victims. But those people aren't going to get help because there is none out there. There is nothing but contempt and rage waiting for them. So they stay quiet, and it builds, and it builds, until opportunity knocks.
Maybe it will be my little girl knocking on that door. That scares the hell out of me, so don't you dare lecture me, do you understand? Do you GET IT? Frankly, I don't give a damn whether you do. Few do, few will. Righteous rage will rule the day. But it is the wrong approach. But never mind. Wave your pitchforks, light your torches, lynch the bastards, if you can find one - and you can't.
As for Kathy's question, I've given that some thought.
Family members are no different than anyone else. Some of them will just be predators, others will have bouts with their conscience before they give in. I think a family member with a dark secret will keep that secret, so what's wrong with keeping the help he gets secret too, if it will encouage him to GET help?
This is too dangerous a threat to meet it with some kind of witch hunt. That's what Martindale did with his purges, remember? Get rid of the homos! he demanded. Did it work? Two words: Donna, Rosalie. You tell me. I don't think so.
If you need help understanding what I've been saying, Linda Z seems to have understood what you have not. Maybe you could ask her nicely to explain it to you. I've used up what little patience I have with people who exercise their right to miss the point entirely.
First off, the problem with a forum or chat or email, as you know, is that you can't see or hear the speaker communicate their ideas. There is a lessened connection in an electronic dialogue, such as this. In short, I think that if we were discussing this over coffee or a beer, it wouldn't be as charged as you are making it out to be. You have inferred that I am "emotional" about this - I'm not in the way that you think I am. I am sickened by it - who wouldn't be - but there's been some healing on this thread, as well. Perhaps I'm not communicating this well... but... here it goes...
Believe it or not...
I've read, re-read, re-re-read, etc., you post. Ditto for Linda Z.'s post. I get it. Get it? It's clear. Really.
I get your point. I understand your idea about a program. I really do. You've hashed out the details - it's a pre-crime, crime prevention, stop-gap - whatever you want to call it - type idea. Fine and well. I get it.
No where do I accuse you of "defending" pedophiles. I basically said this in my last post. Did you read it? (See the part in brackets, bold type.) Did I say that was your agenda? No, I did not. No where. You're taking my disagreement with your point of view - your idea - your "pipe dream" (your words) - to an extreme.
However, it's my opinion that those programs wouldn't/don't work. Just due to the nature of this type of crime, I don't think people would avail themselves to it. I believe more severe punishment is the best deterrent - not a program. Get it? That's it. Call it offensive. Call it a witch hunt. I'd prefer to see a more severe - much more severe - punishment. Already the ring leader of this group is trying to get just three and a half years - people go to prison for tax evasion for longer than that in some cases, I'm sure!
Honestly -- I don't want a *%^#*ing contest with you. I'll gladly buy you a beer or a cuppa jo' and talk about the upcoming baseball season with you or the latest movie or even your political points of view. Really. (As long as you buy the next round.)
I understand what some of you are saying about not wanting to speak up and pushing it down so far that it seems like it wasn't real...like it was just a bad dream.
I had one incedent that happened to me when I was young (less that 7, don't remember exactly, maybe 5). It happened at a daycare at a lady's house down the road and was done by her older boy. If you've read my story here you know that I never told anyone until it was nearly forced out of me by my LC and BC during a "homo purge" sort of situation. I still didn't tell anyone after that until I met my wife and then on my first post here in my story.
I don't feel it affected me much as an adult, but perhaps as a kid. It was only one time, but it was still something that stuck with me over the years even though I had repressed it into a faint unreal memory.
What really is upsetting to me (I started a thread about this before) is that as an adult I think I have met more women that have been abused than not. I hoped for boys for this reason when having kids. I feel I can do more good by raising good boys into good men. Being a guy I have seen the objectifying of women by peers and what seems to be most men on a large scale. It is disconcerting to say the least. Even today in 2006 woman are viewed as meat and as a prize so often it is sickening.
This is a big problem and a complicated one to deal with and I don't think there is any one answer. There needs to be more open conversation about it in families, in schools if they teach sex ed and other places that might help. I see Satori's point and think that perhaps it might help some people before they commit a crime. If it helps one person it helps 117 victims according to the stats. To me that seems worth it.
On the other hand, once the crime is commited there needs to be severe punishment. I think once these people ravage a child they are no longer of use to this world and should be removed from it as quickly as possible. This needs to happen first for justice and second so that they never hurt another child again. That being said it is unrealistic to think that capital punishment alone will rid us of all of them. That would assume that we apprehend all of them which we all know doesn't and probably never will happen. More harsh punishment like, life in prison or death, would help though, IMO.
(((((all of you)))))
I think most of it comes down to parenting, both in protecting our children and in raising loved, well adjusted, future grown ups. Unfortuanately, that is someting we can't and wouldn't want to regulate.
HOWELL, Mich. (AP) -- A 13-year-old Livingston County boy who sexually molested a seven-year-old girl in a library restroom will remain in state custody for two years. A juvenile court referee also ordered the Brighton teen to undergo sex offender therapy. Testimony revealed the boy posed as a library volunteer to gain the trust of the girl and her mother. He then lured her into the bathroom and assaulted her until another someone entered the room. He pleaded guilty last month. The teenager apologized to the girl in court during yesterday's sentencing. The girl sat quietly between her parents. (Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
Apparently, this practice is somewhat accepted elsewhere in the world:
Child Bride
Posted by Kevin Sites
on Mon, Mar 20 2006, 4:55 PM ET
Married at the age of four, an Afghan girl was subjected to years of beatings and torture, finally escaping to discover that within all the world's cruelty, there is also some kindness.
KABUL,
Afghanistan - Eleven-year old Gulsoma lay in a heap on the ground in front of her father-in-law. He told her that if she didn't find a missing watch by the next morning he would kill her. He almost had already.
Enraged about the missing watch, Gulsoma's father-in-law had beaten her repeatedly with a stick. She was bleeding from wounds all over her body and her right arm and right foot had been broken.
She knew at that moment that if she didn't get away, he would make good on his promise to kill her.
* * *
When I meet her at the Ministry of Women's Affairs I'm surprised that the little girl, now 12, is the same one that had endured such horrible suffering. She is wearing a red baseball cap and an orange scarf. She has beautiful brown eyes and a full and animated smile. She takes one of my hands in both of hers and greets me warmly, without any hint of shyness.
"She looks healthy," says Haroon, my friend and translator. I nod. But she looks older than her years, we both agree. In orphanages — first in Kandahar, then in Kabul — she has had a year to recover from a lifetime's worth of unimaginable imprisonment, deprivation and torture.
In one of the ministry's offices she sits in a straight-backed wooden chair and tells us the story of her life so far. She is stoic for the most part, pausing only a few times to wipe her eyes and nose with her scarf.
Her story begins in the village of Mullah Allam Akhound, near Kandahar.
"When I was three years old my father died, and after a year my mother married again, but her second husband didn't want me," says Gulsoma. "So my mother gave me away in a promise of marriage to our neighbor's oldest son, who was thirty."
"They had a ceremony in which I was placed on a horse [which is traditional in Afghanistan] and given to the man."
Because she was still a child, the marriage was not expected to be sexually consummated. But within a year, Gulsoma learned that so much else would be required of her that she would become a virtual slave in the household.
At the age of five, she was forced to take care of not only her "husband" but also his parents and all 12 of their other children as well.
Though nearly the entire family participated in the abuse, her father-in-law, she says, was the cruelest.
"My father-in-law asked me to do everything — laundry, the household chores — and the only time I was able to sleep in the house was when they had guests over," she says. "Other than that I would have to sleep outside on a piece of carpet without even any blankets. In the summer it was okay. But in the winter a neighbor would come over and give me a blanket, and sometimes some food."
When she couldn't keep up with the workload, Gulsoma says, she was beaten constantly.
Gulsoma's scars
"They beat me with electric wires," she says, "mostly on the legs. My father-in-law told his other children to do it that way so the injuries would be hidden. He said to them, 'break her bones, but don't hit her on the face.'"
There were even times when the family's abuse of Gulsoma transcended the bounds of the most wanton, sadistic cruelty, as on the occasions when they used her as a human tabletop, forcing her to lie on her stomach then cutting their food on her bare back.
(snip)
But it wasn't for lack of trying. Gulsoma said when her father-in-law finally let her out of the shed, he bound her hands behind her back and beat her unconscious. She says he revived her by pouring a tea thermos filling with scalding water over her head and her back.
"It was so painful," she says, dabbing her eyes with her scarf and sniffling for a moment. "I was crying and screaming the entire time."
Five days later, she says, her father in law gave her a vicious beating when his daughter's wristwatch went missing.
"He thought I stole it," she says, "and he beat me all over my body with his stick. He broke my arm and my foot. He said if I didn't find it by the next day, he would kill me."
(snip)
The toll of torture
Gulsoma was then brought to a Kabul orphanage, where she lives today. She takes off her baseball cap and shows us a bald spot, almost like a medieval monk's tonsure, on the crown of her head where she was scalded.
She then turns her back and raises her shirt to reveal a sad map of scar tissue and keloids from cuts, bruises and the boiling water.
Haroon and I look at each other with disbelief. Her life's tragic story is etched upon her back.
Yet she continues to smile. She doesn't ask for pity. She seems more concerned about us as she reads the shock on our faces.
"I feel better now," she says. "I have friends at the orphanage. But every night I'm still afraid the family will come here and pick me up."
Gulsoma also says that when the sun goes down, she sometimes begins to shiver involuntarily — a reaction to the seven years of sleeping outdoors, sometimes in the bitter cold of the desert night.
She says she believes there are other girls like her in Kandahar, maybe elsewhere in Afghanistan, and that she wants to study human rights and one day go back to help them.
As we walk outside to take some pictures, I ask her if, after all she's been through, she thinks it will be harder to trust, to believe that there are actually good people in the world.
"No," she says, quickly.
"I didn't expect anyone would help me but God. I was really surprised that there were also nice people: the neighbor, the rickshaw driver, the police," she says. "I pray for those who helped release me."
All too common, unfortunately..."married" at Age 4...then the abuse begins...
I'm looking into what, if any, other information/studies are around and whatever else I can find out about this. It's just too important not to see about it...and see if there's anything I can do to help things move along if it's all that it's cracked up to be.
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ChasUFarley
WARNING:
This link is very graphic but isn't what you'd see run in an American paper about this:
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...16/1490471.html
The worst part about that article:
"But ultimately, what good will it do when possession of child porn is treated so lightly in this country?
The exemplary work done by Toronto Police led to 27 arrests, including that of Carl Treleaven, a 49-year-old Edmonton father who was on his computer when police raided his home in January. They discovered more than 90 chat participants were waiting to download images and video from Treleaven's vast 20 gigabyte collection of child porn.
After pleading guilty, Treleaven apologized in court last week for being an administrator for the global chat room. Yes, he knew perfectly well that he was helping to run an international porn ring. Yes, he knew that he was sharing photos and videos of people raping young children, including their own.
Yet, for all that, even the prosecutor on the case is asking that Treleaven serve only 31/2 years in jail."
WHAT AN OUTRAGE!
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ChattyKathy
I don't even know what to say.
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excathedra
rape of a baby child is a lot like death maybe even worse
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satori001
Chas, I don't quite understand what you think you're reading. It isn't what I'm writing. It's clear to me that you're so certain of what you think I'm saying that you've only skimmed my posts.
For instance, where you say something like "but the crime has already been committed..." referring to the safe harbor idea. That is exactly opposite of what I said.
No Chas. You didn't read it correctly. If I'm talking down to you, it's not intentional. But you haven't understood me, and I don't think it's so complicated.
I am willing to discuss or defend what I've said, but it gets a little nutty when I have to defend myself against things I plainly haven't said, and it's right there in black and white.
There are a lot of people here who have been hurt by pedophiles. You can't come in here and say I'm defending the pedophiles in front of them. You'd be wrong anyway, but on this thread it's damned irresponsible.
What do you think my agenda is, anyway? To make the world safer for pedophiles? If you think so, then you ARE an idiot. No, I don't think you are. I do think you're being a little rash because it's an emotional topic and it got the better of you. (No, that's not condescending, that's the truth. When I consider what you're saying above I'd be within my rights to say a lot more about it. Your comments are far more offensive than they are just wrong.)
I have a little girl and I am constantly watching for evidence of some predator. I look for evidence. I look for hints of evidence. I look for nuances that might suggest hints of evidence. I do that because she's too young to understand, and I don't want to frighten her. But I know one thing for sure. I've met pedophiles, and I didn't recognize them. Maybe they're relatives, neighbors, co-workers, day care workers or God knows who else. I cannot read their minds.
But I am sure that at least some of them don't want to be, and some of them have not yet acted out. I wish there was some place for them to get help because I know that if they don't get help they will eventually get to work on that statistical list of victims. But those people aren't going to get help because there is none out there. There is nothing but contempt and rage waiting for them. So they stay quiet, and it builds, and it builds, until opportunity knocks.
Maybe it will be my little girl knocking on that door. That scares the hell out of me, so don't you dare lecture me, do you understand? Do you GET IT? Frankly, I don't give a damn whether you do. Few do, few will. Righteous rage will rule the day. But it is the wrong approach. But never mind. Wave your pitchforks, light your torches, lynch the bastards, if you can find one - and you can't.
As for Kathy's question, I've given that some thought.
Family members are no different than anyone else. Some of them will just be predators, others will have bouts with their conscience before they give in. I think a family member with a dark secret will keep that secret, so what's wrong with keeping the help he gets secret too, if it will encouage him to GET help?
This is too dangerous a threat to meet it with some kind of witch hunt. That's what Martindale did with his purges, remember? Get rid of the homos! he demanded. Did it work? Two words: Donna, Rosalie. You tell me. I don't think so.
If you need help understanding what I've been saying, Linda Z seems to have understood what you have not. Maybe you could ask her nicely to explain it to you. I've used up what little patience I have with people who exercise their right to miss the point entirely.
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ChasUFarley
Satori,
First off, the problem with a forum or chat or email, as you know, is that you can't see or hear the speaker communicate their ideas. There is a lessened connection in an electronic dialogue, such as this. In short, I think that if we were discussing this over coffee or a beer, it wouldn't be as charged as you are making it out to be. You have inferred that I am "emotional" about this - I'm not in the way that you think I am. I am sickened by it - who wouldn't be - but there's been some healing on this thread, as well. Perhaps I'm not communicating this well... but... here it goes...
Believe it or not...
I've read, re-read, re-re-read, etc., you post. Ditto for Linda Z.'s post. I get it. Get it? It's clear. Really.
I get your point. I understand your idea about a program. I really do. You've hashed out the details - it's a pre-crime, crime prevention, stop-gap - whatever you want to call it - type idea. Fine and well. I get it.
No where do I accuse you of "defending" pedophiles. I basically said this in my last post. Did you read it? (See the part in brackets, bold type.) Did I say that was your agenda? No, I did not. No where. You're taking my disagreement with your point of view - your idea - your "pipe dream" (your words) - to an extreme.
However, it's my opinion that those programs wouldn't/don't work. Just due to the nature of this type of crime, I don't think people would avail themselves to it. I believe more severe punishment is the best deterrent - not a program. Get it? That's it. Call it offensive. Call it a witch hunt. I'd prefer to see a more severe - much more severe - punishment. Already the ring leader of this group is trying to get just three and a half years - people go to prison for tax evasion for longer than that in some cases, I'm sure!
Honestly -- I don't want a *%^#*ing contest with you. I'll gladly buy you a beer or a cuppa jo' and talk about the upcoming baseball season with you or the latest movie or even your political points of view. Really. (As long as you buy the next round.)
Again, I say...
Peace.
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lindyhopper
I understand what some of you are saying about not wanting to speak up and pushing it down so far that it seems like it wasn't real...like it was just a bad dream.
I had one incedent that happened to me when I was young (less that 7, don't remember exactly, maybe 5). It happened at a daycare at a lady's house down the road and was done by her older boy. If you've read my story here you know that I never told anyone until it was nearly forced out of me by my LC and BC during a "homo purge" sort of situation. I still didn't tell anyone after that until I met my wife and then on my first post here in my story.
I don't feel it affected me much as an adult, but perhaps as a kid. It was only one time, but it was still something that stuck with me over the years even though I had repressed it into a faint unreal memory.
What really is upsetting to me (I started a thread about this before) is that as an adult I think I have met more women that have been abused than not. I hoped for boys for this reason when having kids. I feel I can do more good by raising good boys into good men. Being a guy I have seen the objectifying of women by peers and what seems to be most men on a large scale. It is disconcerting to say the least. Even today in 2006 woman are viewed as meat and as a prize so often it is sickening.
This is a big problem and a complicated one to deal with and I don't think there is any one answer. There needs to be more open conversation about it in families, in schools if they teach sex ed and other places that might help. I see Satori's point and think that perhaps it might help some people before they commit a crime. If it helps one person it helps 117 victims according to the stats. To me that seems worth it.
On the other hand, once the crime is commited there needs to be severe punishment. I think once these people ravage a child they are no longer of use to this world and should be removed from it as quickly as possible. This needs to happen first for justice and second so that they never hurt another child again. That being said it is unrealistic to think that capital punishment alone will rid us of all of them. That would assume that we apprehend all of them which we all know doesn't and probably never will happen. More harsh punishment like, life in prison or death, would help though, IMO.
(((((all of you)))))
I think most of it comes down to parenting, both in protecting our children and in raising loved, well adjusted, future grown ups. Unfortuanately, that is someting we can't and wouldn't want to regulate.
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ChattyKathy
My heart goes out to you as well. I see your one time abuse as horrible as mine. There is no little incident in the world of sex with children.
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Shellon
3/21/2006 - Library Assault
HOWELL, Mich. (AP) -- A 13-year-old Livingston County boy who sexually molested a seven-year-old girl in a library restroom will remain in state custody for two years. A juvenile court referee also ordered the Brighton teen to undergo sex offender therapy. Testimony revealed the boy posed as a library volunteer to gain the trust of the girl and her mother. He then lured her into the bathroom and assaulted her until another someone entered the room. He pleaded guilty last month. The teenager apologized to the girl in court during yesterday's sentencing. The girl sat quietly between her parents. (Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
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ChattyKathy
For clarification I didn't think you had said yours was a little incident.
That was to say Lindyhopper as the quoter, I forgot it doesn't retain parts of the post.
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markomalley
Apparently, this practice is somewhat accepted elsewhere in the world:
All too common, unfortunately..."married" at Age 4...then the abuse begins...
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CoolWaters
This may be too technical for folks to get through, but it's very, very interesting to this discussion, imo:
http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whath...AO/Dutch%20Guys
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bowtwi
Very interesting, indeed! I wonder if this study has been proven - sure looks like it could lead to the common denominator. I'd like to hear more.
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CoolWaters
I'm looking into what, if any, other information/studies are around and whatever else I can find out about this. It's just too important not to see about it...and see if there's anything I can do to help things move along if it's all that it's cracked up to be.
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