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While I can't say I agree on ALL points, I agree with Mark that a lot of the doctrine was adapted from Greco-Roman mythology, of shades in the underworld, tortured for eternity. I agree with him and Rob Bell that I don't buy the idea that lots of humanity will be (or are) tortured for centuries or forever. I don't see that squaring the the Bible, and I don't see that squaring with God's M.O. There was a quote, attributed to Mark Twain, where he supposedly didn't agree with it, either. It's one thing to destroy a villain, it is another to punish for a time during his sentence, but to torture forever made no sense to him. (I just don't see "eternal torture for humanity" working on paper.)

At the risk of over generalizing and not really getting into the weeds on his book (yet) I would say I agree more with the side he's on (I think) .... more than not. I'll try to come back to this Rocky - it's an invigorating topic. In brief, I don't see that the Bible teaches specifically that the outcome of God's creations, expectation of that creation and subsequent evaluation (judgment) of those creations is to exalt and reward the one's He likes forever (approves of, let's say) and to punish those he doesn't. God's view of things is often described in very human terms in the Bible, even what I'd call humanistic terms - like God being a "jealous" God and God's "vengeance"....mans' definition of many of those words doesn't fit with the God we see presented in Genesis nor in how He trends throughout the subsequent records, although that's how He's described but I never come to the same conclusion as say an angry Preacher shouting out God's Just Hell to all sinners everywhere - God clearly complex but seems to be put forward as One who is at work "creatively" - a word that gets closest to how I (in what I will confess to be very humble perspective) see the Bible's Elohim/Jehovah working. Sovereign, yes. Creative, yes. At work, yes. That's not to refute the inspirational source of the Bible itself, but rather to say it puts meat on the bones of how to understand it..........and the angst of man's struggles isn't one that's going to be at the essence of how a creator and giver of life who nourishes His relationships....feels. Or thinks. It does however give a level of emotional definition to God, and that's an important aspect of understanding God that Bell's book retains. Put another way I see God, whoy loves as strongly as many believe He hates and the result is a level of paradoxical "love" that we come to understand through qualities like grace, mercy and forgiveness...qualities that would seem to hint at a far broader Mind at work. I don't believe there's eternal punishment in store for those who don't accept Christ as savior, no but I can get into that further in this discussion (it involves what "Life" is and how the Bible teaches it). I do believe the entire message of Christ we're to live and spread is one of hope, of trust and of caring. I can't "BE" a Christian or "BE" saved and hate my brothers or even those who strike out against me - Jesus said "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing"...... we are not all made by our own hand and intent - we are born who we are, where, at the age and times and to the people we are - completely outside our own ability to plan. People like to say we're accountable and responsible and we "make our own choices"....and we are and we do but we are not a law nor a law give unto ourselves....... So our ability to be right or wrong or even understand either one and "believe" in any one thing or not, is limited outta the gate. IMO. And Bell hits on that somewhat in that Book if I remember right, I read it years ago, seems like it anyway. PEACE!!!

Continuing my post from above- AND, here is a DUH! logical conclusion re: vp's ability (and willingness) to guide ppl into a "true and vital relationship with God" and therefore with His Son Jesus Christ - as he 1) became progressively addicted to ppl's approval, power, sex, etc, 2) became more and more delusional about his own importance, 3) taught more and more error, and 4) engaged progressively in sinful unGodly thoughts, words, and behaviors, he removed himself more and more from actual fellowship with God and Jesus. Therefore, when he teaches/shouts things as in the above incident, or tells young ladies that being sexually involved with him gives them a giant step up into God's and his approval*, he was actually distancing himself personally in huge ways from God and Jesus, and leading us away from them as well. "I am the way, the truth, and the life" did not apply to vpw but to Jesus. I know these things are obvious, but I am grieving as I write this; it is very painful to see... Guess a part of me was still pretty attached emotionally... But since certain damaging things had been normalized for me pre-way ministry, when I began experiencing them there too, I had no real way to judge them or to detach. Plus, once one trusts someone like a spiritual leader, especially in a developmental stage of life, it will be a process to undo the trust, eh? (Of course, I am glad that God holds me personally responsible for my part - I sinned "in ignorance" as Paul wrote. I was not a total victim, and have my part in repenting and coming clean...) *It could probably be said that all of the garbage fed to young women about how being close to the mog sexually was a sacred secret trust, and their compliance, in turn fed into his delusional state of mind just as the other power abuse/lies and our affirmations/belief in him did. Never mind the state of partial concubinage that I know at least two woman experienced as a way of being in the inner circle of the rather misogynistic men... Oh yes, the delusions of power and entitlement continued... Thank you again, this is rough but necessary... Onward!

The sad thing is, if vpw had spoken sincerely and from the heart when he said that, it would have been a really good thing. He directed people to read Ephesians 6, starting at verse 10. He read aloud, misreading aloud so everyone reading along could catch the distinction. " 'Finally, my brethren, be strong in vp wierwille." *group 'no'* "Say it LOUDER!" *group 'NO!'* "That's right. You're not strong in vp wierwille. Many of you may have heard God's Word from me, but I didn't die for you." *shout from offside that sounded like VF* "IT WAS JESUS CHRIST!" "You said it, man!" Then vpw criticized people who say to look at this or that leader. "I look at The Word, baby!" Sadly, all of that was show. vpw wanted us to look to vpw, but when the microphones were on, he knew to say the opposite. Who would possibly believe the accounts of the victims, of the abused, when vpw said the opposite IN PUBLIC? Who would imagine vpw could be such a Grade A Hypocrite that he could do that all the time? It sounds ridiculous, and if there wasn't so much testimony from so many witnesses and so many victims, it might not be possible to accept that vpw did it. vpw SO deluded himself into thinking he was "THE Man of God" that- when he was in his final hours of life, he wracked his brain, looking for how he could somehow have "missed it" and failed God so he couldn't Super-Believe into instant health. He looked back on his life, and was unable to find anything sufficient. That was all for himself, alone. Now, THAT'S quite a level of delusion.