annio

Well, since I started this with a kind of dual-subject post, will just say how much I appreciate the responses, and how cool it is to view ppls interactions and thoughts as a way of yes, gaining critical thinking confidence when one gets to think about different positions, different perspectives, and what one does or doees not agree with. Thank you GSCers!!

Hi Ghosted, I just saw your post and want to respond even if kinda late... (I post here irregularly but read posts more often to keep me balanced in my own PTSD recovery from the way, among other things.) Wow, you have been through a lot, but I am very glad that you have some good support, and are able to put these unimaginable things into words so well. Yes, I too trigger when I hear certain songs, and just reading about your story sent me to the kitchen for some comforting hot tea and a break... The motherly side of me comes out when I hear of these very difficult things that we parents have unintentionally exposed our children to. I send heartfelt thoughts, wishes, prayers (take your pick) for your recovery. My own daughter had attendance problems due to stomach issues in 7th grade (my h and I had left the way in Indiana in '88, but I had "trained my children in the way they should go" very stridently so that they would not have to go thru all of the childhood trauma or hippie years I went thru; when things started to fall apart in those early years, my h and I ended up divorcing; was extremely hard on my daughter and all of us) After being dismissed from public school, my daughter had a really tough time in several not-good schools. She still has some struggles these 7 years later, but has some good counseling (EMDR is helping her alot with PTSD if you want to explore something like that) and is doing much better. Anyway, thank you for sharing your story here, and for offering your perspective on what has happened recently at HQ! The very best to you! (Sending a virtual emoticon with a raised glass to celebrate YOU!)

Appreciate that Galen!!

(Hope OK to do this; don't want the discussion to be buried in the old way tapes!) A few quotes from the Old Way Tapes thread that are on this excellent needed topic IMO, and my thankful reply: He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance. (Sorry, the belows didn't copy well) [Waysider posted: He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance.] [T-Bone posted: I agree. Wierwille’s modus operandi was in developing an undercurrent that grew stronger as one became more involved with the organization (like joining programs and staff). Undercurrent: an underlying feeling or influence, especially one that is contrary to the prevailing atmosphere and is not expressed openly; a current of water below the surface and moving in a different direction from any surface current…teachings available to the general public were seemingly benign promoting study of the Bible, offering keys to overcoming adversity and finding fulfilment in life. All that supposedly wholesome sounding Bible stuff on the surface hides the undertow. You'll find it's all about wierwille's skewed interpretation of the Bible commingled with lies... Your hopes and dreams become entangled with the busy work of the ministry. Any false sense of happiness and fulfillment really depends on how much you commit to an organization. Christian, beware these are treacherous waters! The deeper you go the more you find wierwille’s influence leading you further and further away from the simple and honest life of a Christian. Wierwille was like Captain Nemo and my experience in TWI was like twenty thousand (or more) lies under the sea.] Me, Annio now: Well expressed and Ah YES, THANK YOU!!! These posts are extremely helpful to me for several reasons- 1) Am still recovering from various way ministry abuses and they give needed big picture context 2) Have had discussions with an old friend recently who still connects to/with Chris Geer folks; now I can see more clearly the reasons for her continued adulation of vpw and inability/ unwillingness to accept the trauma that I went through. 3) I can see parallels betw the modus operandi of vpw and Harvey Weinsten, Jeffrey Epstein, Catholic priests, et al. Weinstein was a bully in general, several ppl testified, so naturally this can extend to a man's sexual relationships with women who need his support/connection to advance their careers. A male assistant said working for him was like "being in a cult". Vpw was a bully with power in general, and used sex as a way to bring "privileged" young women into his inner circle using his false mog persona. There are numerous parallels between all of these predators, the normalizing cultures around them, the addictions they had, the sense that they were untouchable re: the law/consequences, etc. 4) All of this is building up my desire to DO something. Since I left the way in '88 and transitioned with others into Chris Geer's fold for a good while, and since CG led me to the motor coach in '80, I did research and found his home address: 13 Casselton Rd, Raymond, ME, 4071-6727. Maybe I will write him a letter... Maybe I will write Kris Skedgell about how much her wonderful book Losing the Way meant to me; she was at the family camp where I took PFAL in '74 (and where a young man just about seduced me)... Maybe I will contact the young leader who helped himself to me during my way corps interim year (so ironic that vpw taught [oh so benignly as has been said] that 1 Cor 7:1 could read "a man should not help himself to a woman"... Talk about reverse undercurrents...). We shall see... Maybe CFF folks would give a listening ear? That would be helpful. They have alot of my trust in other areas; DWBH's sharing about his conversation with Kevin Gigou and I think Sarah, confirmed my positive regard for them. 5) And all of this is building up my desire to find some closure, as much as is possible here on this earth. We shall see! Yep, I have been able to process alot by posting here; apologies if I share too much info... So good to know you all are here!! And maybe I can support others on their journeys from time to time. Cheers, and best to you all!!

So, after re-reading the last posts, and hearing a sermon yesterday on John 8 in which Jesus did battle with the Pharisees, and then taking my Jesus Christ Our Passover off the shelf for a look see this a.m., a few more thoughts are percolating. The biggest thought is how little regard vp actually had for Jesus as the One we are to have a personal intimate relationship with if we are Christians - no secrets, no hypocrisy, just total nakedness before as our truest Friend, with a heart of obedience and surrender towards as our Lord. (Think I will share how some of the wording Jesus directed towards the Pharisees in John 8 seem to fit vp at the end of this post.) There in the JCOP Preface is the claiming of vp's "four decades of research and teaching of Biblical and systematic theology" (40's-'70's- HAH). Then in Acknowledgements he says that Walter Cummins was given the job of "checking my research thoroughly..." and is "most thankful and grateful" for "all who contributed to (the book) out of their love for God and for the accuracy of His Word... Of course the final contents are my responsibility." How humble of you... How deceitful of you... How... How damn naive and trusting I was... Tears of anger, hurt, and grief are coming... I remember in the past being greatly moved by the words in the Conclusion about Jesus' suffering for us, and his quoting of I John 3:1 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us..." And the final paragraph is quite exhortative re: walking with God each day, and "manifesting the power from on high with ever-increasing confidence and boldness". Yet 1980 when the book was published, was the year he dismissed the sexual abuse that I referred to when starting this thread. And if it is true that he was delusional, and among the chiefest of sinners (I believe) without a shred of true repentance, and a damn good actor which there is some good evidence for... Well, hell YES, I can picture Jesus feeling it necessary to confront him. [In my recovery from pretty darn crippling childhood trauma and various episodes of sexual trauma including those experienced in the way, I am coming into a very close relationship with Jesus. He is healing the brokenness and bringing freedom from the captivity; a pretty big surprise in light of how I was taught to view Jesus largely as "the absent Christ" replaced now by the written Word... HAH.] So I say to vp as one of Jesus' followers, "It seems to me that you wrote all about Jesus, but you did not really know or honor Him. When people testified about the grave sexual sin you were complicit with and significantly responsible for, you told them 'Your testimony is not true, and really does not matter anyway'; thus you recklessly dismissed the report of a hireling wolf violating young female sheep, for which God will surely hold you accountable. And when DWBH confronted you directly about your own sexual sin, you fired him (or was DWBH just sent to MA for a cooling off time? I forget...) thus definitely dismissing one of God's most faithful servants. AND you wrongly accused ppl of being "tripped out" or influenced by devil spirits so that you could personally benefit from the power vacuum or so that you could get rid of their honest truth-seeking or speaking. If you were following the Father, you would have honored and invited Truth, but instead you were motivated by your own self glorification, and perhaps influenced by the accuser, whom you accused others of being guided by." (Yes, I was able to learn and grow, even heal significantly during my time in the way community. But now the next round of putting off the old dysfunctional unrighteous ways and putting on the new righteous truly valuable ways is happening; my oh my, what a journey!)

Wow, and interesting that you can name that particular "conviction-filled" declaration as being so influential for you, dang!! Yes, it does take time for the more traumatic times to come up for us, and to put them in the correct context of what was actually going on, eh? To finally realize that what feels so counter-culture is actually true and valid... Best to you Lifted Up! Have appreciated your honest personal sharings much.

So, my friend's rather vulnerable son and I will be meeting soon since he's being pressured to pay for/ take their class, get off disability and get a job, etc. Any news about the success of reforms from HQ? The area leaders here near Indianapolis I connected with a few years ago seemed same ol' same ol'... This is pretty weird I must say, as I left Geer-land in '06, and my occasional more recent connections with CFF have been good since they are evolving away from so much of the twi mindset. Just thought I would toss this out, in case anyone has any thoughts... Will probably ask the fellow some Q's, see what his responses are, and honestly share my experiences... Thanks!

Continuing my post from above- AND, here is a DUH! logical conclusion re: vp's ability (and willingness) to guide ppl into a "true and vital relationship with God" and therefore with His Son Jesus Christ - as he 1) became progressively addicted to ppl's approval, power, sex, etc, 2) became more and more delusional about his own importance, 3) taught more and more error, and 4) engaged progressively in sinful unGodly thoughts, words, and behaviors, he removed himself more and more from actual fellowship with God and Jesus. Therefore, when he teaches/shouts things as in the above incident, or tells young ladies that being sexually involved with him gives them a giant step up into God's and his approval*, he was actually distancing himself personally in huge ways from God and Jesus, and leading us away from them as well. "I am the way, the truth, and the life" did not apply to vpw but to Jesus. I know these things are obvious, but I am grieving as I write this; it is very painful to see... Guess a part of me was still pretty attached emotionally... But since certain damaging things had been normalized for me pre-way ministry, when I began experiencing them there too, I had no real way to judge them or to detach. Plus, once one trusts someone like a spiritual leader, especially in a developmental stage of life, it will be a process to undo the trust, eh? (Of course, I am glad that God holds me personally responsible for my part - I sinned "in ignorance" as Paul wrote. I was not a total victim, and have my part in repenting and coming clean...) *It could probably be said that all of the garbage fed to young women about how being close to the mog sexually was a sacred secret trust, and their compliance, in turn fed into his delusional state of mind just as the other power abuse/lies and our affirmations/belief in him did. Never mind the state of partial concubinage that I know at least two woman experienced as a way of being in the inner circle of the rather misogynistic men... Oh yes, the delusions of power and entitlement continued... Thank you again, this is rough but necessary... Onward!

OMGosh, so clearly stated and such an exposure of the underlying delusion, Wordwolf, that I think I finally get it. THANK YOU.

True enough IMO. Wow, you remembered that hypocritical disclaimer shouted out from the ROA main stage, eh? I thought of his rather tearful disclaimer probably on a teaching tape later on about never having claimed to be an Apostle Paul-like figure... The he#% you didn't! The whole way tree was based on a structure that was a false take off of the 1st century church, with you raking in the bucks, unlike Paul, as the self-appointed MOG leader. Oh yes, you claimed to be Paul for this day and time, since you were teaching from the Epistles as they had not been taught since the first century... And since the way ministry was the first century church in the 20th... Geez. (I find that the denominational church that I attend now is doing an excellent job of encouraging doctrinal, ethnic, racial, etc diversity while actively seeking and supporting unity with other churches in town; the home fellowship life group meetings are wonderful as well. I do still have a special place in my heart for CFF 3 hours away as a place to connect with folks who did find alot of the goodness of God and His ppl thru the way, but guess that is an attachment thing since those WOW ambassadors did rescue me from some pretty devastating things in my hippie days, and the way gave me an alternative to some churches that had burned me and some friends pretty badly... And CFF has evolved in some very healthy ways IMHO...) Guess some of this should be in off shoots, but it is also talking to the genuine good that I do want to hold fast to that GOD was able to bless me with thru the way and all of the good folks therein (from '74-'88 and now beyond), in spite of vpw's and others' character flaws.

Yes, vpw's narcissistic father-figuring, power-grabbing, sexual abusing, and (I am coming to think) his dispensational boxing up of the church age distanced us/me slowly but surely from the "less relevant" person of Jesus! I.e. Jesus' presently available friendship, love, work among us, ministering to us individually... Seeing and understanding HIS sacrifices for us personally, not vp's. And all of the counter-cultural ways that Jesus functioned that are still so needed by the world today... And so much more...

Please guide me if there has already been a post on this topic, couldn't find it recently discussed- So! I have been realizing that the doctrine that A&E were totally separated from God/"died spiritually" immediately after falling in a totally black and white "picture", and the dispensational (administrations) doctrinal "boxing" taught by vpw et al has affected my life negatively. (I realize this is a huge topic, so will just throw out some thoughts, and see if anyone is interested...) There was zero Imago Dei teaching - that A&E were still functioning somewhat as God's image bearers. Or that GOD'S heart of unconditional love towards them did not change one iota; logically He would have grieved for the loss of the perfect relationship. And He had the plan for the Savior "ready to go". Eve believed she had birthed "a man from the Lord" - they still had many of the same Godly mental, emotional, etc patterns they had had, but now these would have been under attack, and the tempting, hindering, accusing, fear mongering, etc which is satan's influence in the world, would be influencing them. But they still had Truth deeply embedded and experimentally learned, correct? I also think Dispensationalism keeps us (it did me) from really connecting Jesus' character to that of Jehovah, Elohim, (et al His names and "sides") in the Old Testament. So, yes, A&E became carnal, as we were/I was before getting born again. However, God had knit me together in my Mom's womb, He was working over-time to draw me to Him, and I was drawing towards Him years before I actually invited Jesus into my heart. And He still works thru many ppl and situations, and is not at all limited to just those who have His spirit residing them and have declared a life-long commitment to Him. The "people without spirit are on the level of animals with just body and soul" teaching... That eroded humility and built up pride, and contributed to the "us/them dichotomy, like being the "special ppl", the born again ones, and then being in the "household" as well. Covenant theology, the little that I know of it, seems much more revealing of a God of continual Presence, grace, relationship, mercy, support, and love. God had a covenant w/ A&E which they broke, but He was right there with the solution in Jesus; He just continually "adjusted things" to give room for man's free will. BUT all along He had His Plan A, what with foreknowledge and all. I think there is a lot more accurate continuity with the perspective that God is always interacting w/ His ppl (and often others) as the same covenanting Father, rather than thinking of Him primarily as a "boxer upper" of administrations... And back to Adam and Eve - after they blew it, I think God got to really teach and help them, and then all mankind, right? (Well except for the nincompoops who just didn't listen.) Kind of like interacting with your teen-age adolescents - never a dull moment! Or like the younger son in the forgiving father parable, and the older bro as well... After A&E turned away and disobeyed (maybe even just for a few seconds?), He could really reveal so much more about His character and person than they could have known before the fall, especially for us in Jesus and after Pentecost... All for now. Blessings all!

Totally agree WordWolf, good true perspective. Continues to interest me how good and truth mix to a certain degree with evil and lies... And seeing ppls underlying motives and "drivers" helps to clarify what is good and what is not, eh? Again, many areas in this world are not black and white on a certain experiential level. Thank you!

Can't find a previous topic on vpw et al's ego problems, so am starting this: Just heard about Any Stanley's "Laws of Applause"- If a (Christian) leader starts buying into the deceit that it is all about him/her and should be, then three things can happen: - The exceptional (performance, revelation, etc) that is applauded becomes expected, [and pressure mounts for more membership, new revelations, etc.] - Admiration/applause can lead to the leader's sense of entitlement/ [access to ppls' money, power, bodies, etc.] - The honoring/applause can become addictive, [and he/she need more and more...] What's in brackets is my own explaining... So these apply, right??? Hell yeah, to vpw, lcm, et al. Just thought I would share...

Very helpful Twinky!! Thank you! And I modified your last paragraph a little so I could put it in my own words- hope OK! "...we ALL need grace in this life. Real grace and loving kindness, I mean. Not pretend/false grace to match the critical controlling spirit's words and actions, and the power/sexual abuse of women (and men), and the definitely pretend/false faults and failings. And personal- I failed in the way corps, SO WHAT??? I broke down under the pressures, OF COURSE!! I did my level best but it wasn't good enough - well YES, I was recovering from previous and current trauma! And now, my recovery is happening in amazing ways! Jesus was there all along! The "God who sees" never abandoned, and there are folks as here at GSC, who are caring and sharing wonderfully! Best to all!!