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Thank you Rocky!!

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now. Anyone else remember this? AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16... Best to ALL here!

THANK YOU Charity!!! Am now ready to check this out ASAP. Sorry so late in replying!!

OMG, THANK YOU THANK YOU T-BONE!!!!!!!!!! And preach it, teach it, EXPOSE IT!!!!!!!!!!! And been cruising around GSC and now cant remember if it was you or someone else who posted this below with a great explanation of how the way corpse was like this below for him/her... God will be the ultimate judge I say, but vp gave into the temptations to take advantage of me and numerous others in the ways so well enumerated above, and for that I personally hold him ACCOUNTABLE. (I think/hope the image will post.)

OMG, THANK YOU for this Charity... I say it with tears welling up, but that is EXACTLY what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! K, now I have to grieve all the years I disconnected from Jesus... This will take awhile to recover from, but oh well, what is new????!!!!

If I can share further FREEDOM AND HEALING HERE- I chose not to get involved w/ Jesus Movement folks in '72 b/c of my indoctrination/beliefs that I now remember came from Inter-Varsity CF's anti-Charismatic movement stance tht I was totallyl involved w/ during my college years. "You are raising your hands during singing? I am OUTTA HERE!" But a few years later I said YES to vpw's culture/doctrines/etc. Now reading/viewing lots re: the Jesus Movement, I can actually "time travel back" and "chose" that Jesus-centered path, and connect to what that would have been like in key ways. And this a.m. I had a deeply spiritual re-attaching to the God and Jesus that I lost during my 35 years w/ the way and Chris Geer folks... SOO much fear and confusion gone, since I had had bad church experiences, saw all the denom fighting, etc. And then expereinced some of the worst of the abuses in the way. AMAZING!!! Bedst to you all here!!!!!!!

Sorry took so long to reply! I very much appreciate learning about your and others' personal processings, and our Very Human Common Experiences and Ways of Dealing w/ Abuses, etc. So glad for your new freedom and fresh air!!!!!

SOOOO appreciate your insights and depth folks!!! My contribution (and support-seeking!) here is sharing about the pushback I got on Facebook for challenging a recent post by a still-faithful-twi leader. Here is his original post that got lots of support: "I know Dr Wierwille learned alot from men like Bullinger and Kenyon. I never heard him present it as if it was his work. He presented it as it is in truth and fact, as God's." I posted this- "he did not credit most of what he taught re: receiving the holy spirit in PFAL to BG Leonard when BG had NOT given him permission to do so." Said I could document privately as I remember posters here sharing about vp basically stealing BG's class. I was accused of being "worldly and nitpicky", and there were many who gave evidence of him acknowledging his sources. You all have addressed these issues very well in the past, so am not looking for discussion on that. One particularly interesting thing was someone said that BG attended vp's retirement party; they have photos of BG w/ their daughters. HUH... I responded with "Love you all". and "am glad that GOD is and will be our judge!" Just sharing this here is very helpful, and I learned afresh about who to discuss what w/... Onward!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YES! Thank you much!!! Well spoken. And I sooooo appreciate ALL of the aboves!!!

Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress. Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p: 1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power. 2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully. 3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them. 4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself. 5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time. Thank you reading!! Onward!

i.e. the Jesus Revolution movie cut...

Of interest? This is from Glenda Sue Morris' FB page posted Saturday, with 102+ comments and contributions! "The Doops and Heefners moved in together in the spring of 1967, and around that time, along with Ted and Liz Wise and Danny Sands, they started the Living Room mission in Haight-Ashbury and ended up moving in together in Novato in the House of Acts. I moved to CA in 1972, so this was before my time, but I met them all and learned from them. They soon took in Lonnie Frisbee, and he's the one that opened up the work in Southern California. It's my belief, based on the book by Pastor John A. MacDonald called "House of Acts," that the Wises, Doops, Heefners and Sands were ground zero of the Jesus Revolution." Then along came Dell and Nancy Dunca et ALL, eh? Someone thought that Donnie Fugit should make the movie cut...? It was just cool to see these possible connections, and time travel back to The Past! (I was in Idaho back-packing in the very early 70's, not so interested in hand-raising Jesus folks, but searching never-the-less! Somehow or other, I still see the hand of God in my life when I got involved w/ the way in VA a few years later...)

Agreed. Wow, the treatment of one another that Jesus SO highlighted... GREAT POINTS!!!