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Continuing my post from above- AND, here is a DUH! logical conclusion re: vp's ability (and willingness) to guide ppl into a "true and vital relationship with God" and therefore with His Son Jesus Christ - as he 1) became progressively addicted to ppl's approval, power, sex, etc, 2) became more and more delusional about his own importance, 3) taught more and more error, and 4) engaged progressively in sinful unGodly thoughts, words, and behaviors, he removed himself more and more from actual fellowship with God and Jesus. Therefore, when he teaches/shouts things as in the above incident, or tells young ladies that being sexually involved with him gives them a giant step up into God's and his approval*, he was actually distancing himself personally in huge ways from God and Jesus, and leading us away from them as well. "I am the way, the truth, and the life" did not apply to vpw but to Jesus. I know these things are obvious, but I am grieving as I write this; it is very painful to see... Guess a part of me was still pretty attached emotionally... But since certain damaging things had been normalized for me pre-way ministry, when I began experiencing them there too, I had no real way to judge them or to detach. Plus, once one trusts someone like a spiritual leader, especially in a developmental stage of life, it will be a process to undo the trust, eh? (Of course, I am glad that God holds me personally responsible for my part - I sinned "in ignorance" as Paul wrote. I was not a total victim, and have my part in repenting and coming clean...) *It could probably be said that all of the garbage fed to young women about how being close to the mog sexually was a sacred secret trust, and their compliance, in turn fed into his delusional state of mind just as the other power abuse/lies and our affirmations/belief in him did. Never mind the state of partial concubinage that I know at least two woman experienced as a way of being in the inner circle of the rather misogynistic men... Oh yes, the delusions of power and entitlement continued... Thank you again, this is rough but necessary... Onward!

OMGosh, so clearly stated and such an exposure of the underlying delusion, Wordwolf, that I think I finally get it. THANK YOU.

True enough IMO. Wow, you remembered that hypocritical disclaimer shouted out from the ROA main stage, eh? I thought of his rather tearful disclaimer probably on a teaching tape later on about never having claimed to be an Apostle Paul-like figure... The he#% you didn't! The whole way tree was based on a structure that was a false take off of the 1st century church, with you raking in the bucks, unlike Paul, as the self-appointed MOG leader. Oh yes, you claimed to be Paul for this day and time, since you were teaching from the Epistles as they had not been taught since the first century... And since the way ministry was the first century church in the 20th... Geez. (I find that the denominational church that I attend now is doing an excellent job of encouraging doctrinal, ethnic, racial, etc diversity while actively seeking and supporting unity with other churches in town; the home fellowship life group meetings are wonderful as well. I do still have a special place in my heart for CFF 3 hours away as a place to connect with folks who did find alot of the goodness of God and His ppl thru the way, but guess that is an attachment thing since those WOW ambassadors did rescue me from some pretty devastating things in my hippie days, and the way gave me an alternative to some churches that had burned me and some friends pretty badly... And CFF has evolved in some very healthy ways IMHO...) Guess some of this should be in off shoots, but it is also talking to the genuine good that I do want to hold fast to that GOD was able to bless me with thru the way and all of the good folks therein (from '74-'88 and now beyond), in spite of vpw's and others' character flaws.

Yes, vpw's narcissistic father-figuring, power-grabbing, sexual abusing, and (I am coming to think) his dispensational boxing up of the church age distanced us/me slowly but surely from the "less relevant" person of Jesus! I.e. Jesus' presently available friendship, love, work among us, ministering to us individually... Seeing and understanding HIS sacrifices for us personally, not vp's. And all of the counter-cultural ways that Jesus functioned that are still so needed by the world today... And so much more...

Please guide me if there has already been a post on this topic, couldn't find it recently discussed- So! I have been realizing that the doctrine that A&E were totally separated from God/"died spiritually" immediately after falling in a totally black and white "picture", and the dispensational (administrations) doctrinal "boxing" taught by vpw et al has affected my life negatively. (I realize this is a huge topic, so will just throw out some thoughts, and see if anyone is interested...) There was zero Imago Dei teaching - that A&E were still functioning somewhat as God's image bearers. Or that GOD'S heart of unconditional love towards them did not change one iota; logically He would have grieved for the loss of the perfect relationship. And He had the plan for the Savior "ready to go". Eve believed she had birthed "a man from the Lord" - they still had many of the same Godly mental, emotional, etc patterns they had had, but now these would have been under attack, and the tempting, hindering, accusing, fear mongering, etc which is satan's influence in the world, would be influencing them. But they still had Truth deeply embedded and experimentally learned, correct? I also think Dispensationalism keeps us (it did me) from really connecting Jesus' character to that of Jehovah, Elohim, (et al His names and "sides") in the Old Testament. So, yes, A&E became carnal, as we were/I was before getting born again. However, God had knit me together in my Mom's womb, He was working over-time to draw me to Him, and I was drawing towards Him years before I actually invited Jesus into my heart. And He still works thru many ppl and situations, and is not at all limited to just those who have His spirit residing them and have declared a life-long commitment to Him. The "people without spirit are on the level of animals with just body and soul" teaching... That eroded humility and built up pride, and contributed to the "us/them dichotomy, like being the "special ppl", the born again ones, and then being in the "household" as well. Covenant theology, the little that I know of it, seems much more revealing of a God of continual Presence, grace, relationship, mercy, support, and love. God had a covenant w/ A&E which they broke, but He was right there with the solution in Jesus; He just continually "adjusted things" to give room for man's free will. BUT all along He had His Plan A, what with foreknowledge and all. I think there is a lot more accurate continuity with the perspective that God is always interacting w/ His ppl (and often others) as the same covenanting Father, rather than thinking of Him primarily as a "boxer upper" of administrations... And back to Adam and Eve - after they blew it, I think God got to really teach and help them, and then all mankind, right? (Well except for the nincompoops who just didn't listen.) Kind of like interacting with your teen-age adolescents - never a dull moment! Or like the younger son in the forgiving father parable, and the older bro as well... After A&E turned away and disobeyed (maybe even just for a few seconds?), He could really reveal so much more about His character and person than they could have known before the fall, especially for us in Jesus and after Pentecost... All for now. Blessings all!

Totally agree WordWolf, good true perspective. Continues to interest me how good and truth mix to a certain degree with evil and lies... And seeing ppls underlying motives and "drivers" helps to clarify what is good and what is not, eh? Again, many areas in this world are not black and white on a certain experiential level. Thank you!

Can't find a previous topic on vpw et al's ego problems, so am starting this: Just heard about Any Stanley's "Laws of Applause"- If a (Christian) leader starts buying into the deceit that it is all about him/her and should be, then three things can happen: - The exceptional (performance, revelation, etc) that is applauded becomes expected, [and pressure mounts for more membership, new revelations, etc.] - Admiration/applause can lead to the leader's sense of entitlement/ [access to ppls' money, power, bodies, etc.] - The honoring/applause can become addictive, [and he/she need more and more...] What's in brackets is my own explaining... So these apply, right??? Hell yeah, to vpw, lcm, et al. Just thought I would share...

Very helpful Twinky!! Thank you! And I modified your last paragraph a little so I could put it in my own words- hope OK! "...we ALL need grace in this life. Real grace and loving kindness, I mean. Not pretend/false grace to match the critical controlling spirit's words and actions, and the power/sexual abuse of women (and men), and the definitely pretend/false faults and failings. And personal- I failed in the way corps, SO WHAT??? I broke down under the pressures, OF COURSE!! I did my level best but it wasn't good enough - well YES, I was recovering from previous and current trauma! And now, my recovery is happening in amazing ways! Jesus was there all along! The "God who sees" never abandoned, and there are folks as here at GSC, who are caring and sharing wonderfully! Best to all!!

wish vp had given the same talk in '79 Wow re all you all are sharing/ discussing...Good Q re the timing of the worst abuse by vpw et al.... (Have to peck away on my phone right now, but may discuss further at another time.) Blessings all! And will add that I wish vp had given the above mentioned talk in '79 and that my limb leader had followed the advice, as I (when in a vulnerable mental state) risked getting pregnant due to his advances several times... Damn! When the shock, horror, and pain subside, you won't be hearing from me any more except to support others who are also taking a good while to process and heal from the abuse and cultism... Looking forward to the day!!

Wow re all you all are sharing/ discussing...Good Q re the timing of the worst abuse by vpw et al.... (Have to peck away on my phone right now, but may discuss further at another time.) Blessings all!

Thanks MUCH DWBH. Taking awhile to process these things... Anger, sadness... Really do appreciate your stand and stance. It's helping me to see the heart of God as well, since my lens had gotten pretty muddied in this area. <3

Appreciate the support much all, and thanks much DWBH for naming names, holding ppl accountable, and helping me a great deal to keep processing and rebuilding. It is invaluable beyond words to keep reading truth here at gsc about vpw's (et al's) record and modus operandi (in contrast to what healthy truly Biblical pastoring and leading are.) I pretty much simply ID myself as a Jesus-follower these days and fellowship with some local folks as well as attend CFF conferences and keep in touch with the Taurs in England, Sangat Bains et als ministering, and others who honor God and walk in love and power as best they can. If of interest- I found out that the ex-limb coordinator who really did the damage that led to further destruction (including things that deeply affected my marriage and children), was praised to the skies for helping Jo&n Sch'heit and company in '17 or '18 mediate a leadership crisis... Rather anxiety-causing to see his name in print in the STF newsletter... He appears from Facebook to be leading the Good Life in CT these days... Not sure I am ready to do anything more than write here, but DAMN! Maybe I could atleast write John w/whom I have had some contact... I saw the dude's name as a participant in John's online weekly meetings very recently... We'll see. Onward!!

Don't really know where else to put this story... Move if needed. Well, taking a deep breath, and sharing here a brief history of the sexual abuse I experienced in what I had thought was FINALLY a place I could be cared about and where I could escape the "mental hospital" and recover from the breakdown I was experiencing in Jan '74. At the time was a Baptist folk-song-loving hippie, abusively married, VISTA-volunteering-in-very-racist-very-rural-southern-VA as a college graduate from New England. Starting in the Family Camp where I took PFAL as a brand new believer in NY that summer, a series of sexual encounters gradually began; I had been raped twice, as a 12 year old and on my honey moon night, but had kind of buried the memories, so was particularly vulnerable. At the CF&S Family Camp in OH three weeks later, my boundaries were further broken by the class, altho I was healed of some of the bondage and trauma surrounding sex. However, the pendulum was set to swing into the license-to-sin culture of the way that has been brought to light here and other places. Guess my path was pretty predictable- it involved being sexually abused by two young leaders and then engaging in sex with believer bros, then two guys I was "witnessing" to, etc. There were other incidents that were not (what's a cool way to say full-on intercourse?) Was invited on the motor coach corpse week '80; vpw dropped his pants, but I was again in mental distress after my interim year, and he ended up talking about my next year's assignment as we cuddled, thank You GOD! So from the Advanced Class '79 (July?) to the summer of my final WOW year in '83, I had 10 full sexual encounters/ relationships along with other activity that the culture sanctioned. (Was too "out of it" to protect with safe sex precautions, but my female system had shut down either due to the running, all the birth control pills in traveling hippie times, or the traumas, so there you had that...) When I finally kind of realized that I was becoming an abuser, I said Enough! These are my brothers and I am their sister, and this is wrong. I mentioned in another post how I learned that sexual abuse was A-OK with vpw et al; and of course along with it came the message that women were less than, that it was fine for men to help themselves to the young women, etc. 1 CORINTHIANS 7:1 WAS TAUGHT IN CF&S, YET. . . . . What's new?? A counselor labeled the way as misogynistic... Guess so?! Could of course, talk about how the way contributed to very good things in my life like meeting my future h, having my children with him, making wonderful friends, receiving some deliverance, etc. BUT! I am in full-time trauma recovery from many things, among them the cult aspects of the way and the sexual abuse. All for now I think... Blessings to all!

Any one remember the corpse week meeting (hope OK to use a DWBH's "satirism"... feels so GOOD) in the big tent in '80 I think, in which a courageous guy stood up and expressed the idea that the sexual activity of Pa&l Virgil*o in Idaho with young female believers, should be addressed?? I sure do... (Will share in another post about the reasons I particularly remember, and perhaps what I would stand up and say now, heh heh.) There was vpw with some other leading men sitting on a raised platform up front, with an audience of all of the corpse folks who had come in for the week attending the open meeting. After the speaker basically intimated that the sexual abuse (by the handsome young musician limb co-ordinator) was wrong and should be addressed, vpw made light of the request and quickly deflected it by saying that it wasn't really a sin. NEXT? Oh yeah. Lesson Learned for/by me. And particularly by all of the young raised-in-the-way folks who had been sexually abused. Oh Yeah... Hope you can follow me... All I want to write in this post. Thanks for reading whoever does!

Really appreciate this and other posts I have been reading on this lovely Sunday a.m. Helping me to continue to detach and let go of the fantasy of the ideal safe place I naively took shelter in so long ago... Yes, God and Jesus are the only fully Safe Places.