Nottawayfer

Geez Oldies.....compassion is due when a person gets to that kind of low.

I am not disputing the fact that some people, upon leaving twi, wondered if everything would be ok. I'm opining that that worry had NO comparison to an actual beheading by a King who had the military might to pull it off as desired. It's still apples and oranges. Comparing a religion where participants have free will with a military dictatorship where free will can get one killed, will never be a fair or factual comparison. If one commits treason against twi, one gets marked and avoided. If one commits treason against the King, one gets beheaded.

Comparisons are not considered literals. I think you are being too literal in your point.

When I started this thread, I wasn't implying anything was taught. I was comparing the similarities that MOGS seemed to have in common with Henry VIII. Similarities like feeling entitled to have any woman he wanted. Similarities like take the oath and confess you follow me as the Man of God or else. Similarities like Henry VIII reminding people "I'm the King of England!!!" or the MOG reminding people "I'm the Man of God of our day and time!!!"

I'm one who wholeheartedly believes VPW used the ministry as a means to fulfill his lusts. I don't believe for one minute it was about God unless it was convenient for him. Even Rhoda Wierwille told me VPW liked being in the spot light and in a high position. Maybe he liked being "King of The Way"??

LCM became a stark raving lunatic when he demanded people make a decision to follow him or get the hell out. He ranted about them for over 10 years after the fact. He definitely liked being King, but it stressed him out too much. He couldn't really handle it.

I'm not so sure. Even so, the penalty for saying "no" to a king could be a beheading, so there's really no comparison.

No comparison at all....yeah sure.

Being kicked out of the ministry you were brainwashed in to believing was GOD ALMIGHTY'S ministry was devastating enough. At least those who had their head chopped off didn't have to deal with the mental bondages after the fact.

Oldies, I sure wish you could put yourself in the shoes of those who were hurt. You don't seem to want to give anyone credit who's been hurt at the hand of VPW.

I've been watching The Tudors, a show on Showtime about Henry the 8th. It is a drama based on the time during his life involving all of his wives and the Catholic Church.

There are so many similarities in regard to the women belonging to the King. Henry seemed to romp with any woman he pleased even though he was married. In last night's show, he runs into a man in "his" woods while he was out riding. The man had a stunning woman with him. Henry became captivated with the woman, kissed her in front of her husband, and then took her to the castle to have his way with her. What gave him the right? What gave Wierwille, Martindale, or any other leader in TWI the right? The women during Henry the 8th's time were in no position to deny him what he wanted. Even the men had to "allow" it. I'm sure it was the same in TWI.

Then Henry made every person in England swear an oath to him to recognize him as the Supreme Head of the Church, and not the Pope. Two men were beheaded because they refused to swear the oath. They were both Catholic leadership who had been in his Court.

This all sounds so eerily familiar. The personality of Henry is scarey because I saw the same similarities in LCM's rantings and how he was the Man of God, not Chris Geer. These rantings were even happing 10 years after POP. The mental illness is apparent, and it makes me shiver. The attitude of entitlement, elitism, and MOGness seems to arrive from a royal attitude.

I sent my TC, BC, and LC an email telling them I had no desire to attend fellowship anymore and that I did not want any phone calls or visits from anyone. The BC emailed me telling me it was very sad, and asked if she could talk to me. I said absolutely not, and do not email me anymore.

I still had a boyfriend who was in. He brought lots of messages from these "loving" people. It didn't move me, and neither did the boyfriend. He became an ex boyfriend.

And I started to live my life after 20 years in TWI. I haven't had any pestilance, peril or sword, and I'm still alive. I'm actually happier today than I've ever been.

I ran across this website some time ago. I started a thread called Wierwille Worshippers. I emailed them and got pat responses from them about how much they exalt Wierwille.

Here's what I emailed them:

I think your ministry would have so much more meaning if you didn't put Victor Paul Wierwille on such a pedestal.

I spent 20 years in The Way International. I don't regret it because I believe it was part of my spiritual journey, and I wouldn't be who I am today because of my experiences. However, I would NEVER encourage anyone to take Power for Abundant Living. There are so many churches out there who teach the love of Christ. Wierwille didn't focus on that. He wanted people to focus on how genius he was. He was an arrogant man who was in ministering for his own deceitful practices. He hurt a lot of women through the years.

God bless you,

Teresa

Here's their response to me:

Teresa,

Thanks for your input.

For clarification purposes, we do not put Wierwille on a pedestal at all. We are keenly aware of his shortcomings. We simply believe that he did make a contribution to the body of Christ (see article inset below) and believe in giving credit where credit is due.

Both Rick and I left The Way ministry after only a few short years because of the problems we saw. (Rick and I were involved with The Way from '74-80. At that time I was married to my late husband. You can read my story here: http://www.superheartliving.com/Marthas.html).

We take to heart Paul's admonition in Phil. 3:13,14 "...one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." We have gone on to walk with God and serve him as he has called us to do.

Guess we should throw out all Bible references to David and Paul if we're to use the same standard some people have towards V.P. Wierwille. If you read the article carefully, you'll see that we mention that he was not perfect, as are none of us.

We have articles on other Christian leaders. And we're not finished adding them. We had to start somewhere. And we chose to start with our Way influence. Even you admit it had a big influence on your spiritual journey.

Here's the inset below (from our Wierwille page) what we believe to be the key of why we included Wierwille.

Wierwille was all too human, just like the rest of us. The hero of the Way Ministry was not him, but God.

But for thirty years Wierwille researched God's Word and then with enthusiasm and conviction shared it with hungry people everywhere.

And his stand on God's Word is still touching thousands of lives all over the world. He shows us how to allow God's Word to interpret itself, in the context and the original wording of the text. He will show you how to identify the Bible's figures of speech and recognize the biblical mannerisms and customs. You will really get excited about God's Word!

Most of all, Wierwille challenges you to read and study God's Word for yourself. To look beyond your denominational upbringings and ask yourself...

"What does God's Word actually say about this?"

Today all around the world there are Christians obeying Jesus Christ's command: to live "by every Word that comes out of the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4).

If you have not read our "about us" page and our individual pages, you may want to in order to get a feel for where our hearts are: http://www.superheartliving.com/About_Us.html; http://www.superheartliving.com/Ricks.html; and my page was listed above.

I am very sorry that some women were hurt by V. P. Wierwille. I have heard such rumors but have yet to meet any of them. I hope these women have received healing and have moved on with their lives.

Thanks again for writing us, Teresa.

God bless you,

Martha

www.superheartliving.com

At that time, the one thing that keep going through my mind was V*nce F*nneg@n

standing on the main stage at the ROA during '82 WOW training saying:

And all you single people - No Sex, NO SEX.

Guess the single WOW's weren't spiritually mature enough to handle it.

And the whole lockbox thing allowed this practice to fester and become poisonous

not only in the organization, but in too many innocent people's lives.

As a wise person once said:

Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

The reason others weren't "spiritual enough" to handle it is because they wouldn't be able to hide and keep it underground. It would have been exposed, and the WOWs were out there being public representatives of the ministry to be sure it looked better than it was. HOWEVER, how many of you had problems with your WOW family members screwing each other? I had a WOW sister who couldn't keep her legs together, and she screwed 2 of our 3 WOW brothers. It caused a lot of problems for our family.

When they put single men and women together, I wonder WTF?? Did they actually think nothing would happen? No other Christian organization would even allow women and men to dwell together in an outreach program.

Most churches I've been apart of don't allow counseling between men and women in private. It's a way to keep accountability.

Ralph also mentioned those few in the YAK twig who were NOT involved in adultery. Donna Martindale's name was not among them. She may have had her own healing ministry thing goin' on.

ewwww...the thought.... Now I need some of THESE

I'm waiting for that revealing story to come out. You know it HAS to some day. People in top positions can't hide their dark actions for long. Their revealing usually comes at some time. I wonder if VPW had died later if he would have suffered persecution based on his adulterous actions.

It was calmy presented from his perspective, and I appreciate it a lot. It shows me he doesn't have an axe to grind. Obviously he moved on with his life. I'm not sure why some people want to discredit him. Maybe it's because he told the truth about their idol?

Yes, the audio was good. I listened to part of it at home on my lunch hour. I COULDN'T wait for the rest, so I hooked myself up with headphones at my desk. Other people listen to music on their mp3 players at work, so I figure it's OK to do it while I work.

Here's a point I've been pondering since listening to this interview:

Donna Martindale was there to support Craig at the Yak Twig because he was so out of it. Surely she had to have been there when Ralph confronted them all about the adultery, and she had to have been there when Ralph confronted Craig about the 15th Corps girl he kept bugging for sex.

It sure raises my eyebrows considering she is portrayed as a women wh didn't know her husband's activity outside their marriage.

Dogs must love tissue. My dog digs only in the bathroom trash. He shreds tissues, toilet paper, or tampons (ewwww!!!). His alltime favorite is Qtips. He LOVES to bring those out and chew the cotton off in the dining room. I usually leave the bathroom door shut, but he seems to always find his way there if I forget.

Godiva

Dakota,

Welcome back!! I wonder where the hell you've been. Glad to see you.

Brown sugar

I can drink some beer tonight to be sure there is plenty of p i s s for your Wheaties in the morning WTH.

WTF??

So there were people out there speaking up 21 years ago, but it was difficult to get the information out.

Remember, it was a very confusing time, TWI was in full blown protection mode,

and most information came from your TC.

You aren't kidding it was a confusing time. I didn't know who to believe or listen to. It was even more so for many years after that. I was in Texas during that time. Robert Belt was the Limb coordinator. When he left, the remaining leadership spoke badly of him. I didn't know him, but the leadership's words had an impact on me. Shame on me. I left Texas in 1988 and was going to leave TWI too. I went home to the small Oregon town I was from. But then I ended up in a metropolitan area, and I went back to Twig to do the vicious cycle all over again. By then the Trustees separated themselves from Geer, and that ROA was horrible. It was all about giving your allegiance to Craig. It's hindsite now. Boy, what a ride....And I thought I was doing it all for God. Good thing He knows hearts.

I had a chocolate lab named Hershey. He was the best dog in the whole world. I still miss him... I would love to get another, but I have 2 others dogs right now. My husband had another named Snickers.

I'm sorry to see the derailing of whether JC was mentioned or not. I hear a story of a man who wanted to do what was godly.

I listened to this today, and my head is spinning. I wish I was able to hear this 21 years ago, but I'm not sure it would have changed anything for me. Only God knows. I remember hearing about Ralph and John's letter, but I was told not to read it or I would be possessed like they are. I am baffled that I believed that. I'm sorry I thought they were possessed back then.

I remember going to the advanced class that year and hearing people whisper "Ralph D left the ministry." We knew it meant something. If only I knew the half of it. I never heard Passing of the Patriarch until I came to GSC. I didn't leave TWI until December 2002. I am convinced Craig made TWI even a bigger cult than VPW did. I known a lot of people who would benefit from hearing this. It really tied up a lot of loose ends for me.

Obviously Ralph is a man of honor, and he did what he could to make things right without putting his family in harm's way. God speed to him and his family. Thank you for sharing your story.

I know my lonliness and being divorced for 9 years helped me to be a better person. There were a lot of times it sucked, especially when I was in my 30s and craving to have children. Sure I could have had kids by myself, but I didn't want that. I had many dysfunctional relationships during that 9 years. I cried a lot trying to figure out why I didn't have a soulmate. I had to touch the hot stove many times to realize it hurt. There are many things in life which are disappointing. We can look back at the disappointment, or we can see how it made us better. It does take time to see past disapointment when the hurt is new.

I did find the love of my life, and we celebrated our 4th anniversary last month. It was worth the wait.

My husband loves his Mac for all of his studio work. He went to the NAB conference this past week in Las Vegas, and he was thrilled to find out if he installed Windows XP on it, he could run his Sound Forge stuff. Now he can do it all from his Mac!!

Reading through this thread reminded me how special that song "Shout to the Lord" is to me. It brought back memories of when we first started attending a church several years after leaving TWI. This song in particular helped me get free from the shackles and fetters of way stiffness. I was able to join in with all of my heart in lifting holy hands to praise Him who is worthy of all praise, and lifting my feet in dancing before Him and lifting my voice in a shout to the Lord.

You said it well here.

I spent a lot of time crying during praise and worship at church right after I left TWI. I felt weird and stiff, but I so wanted to surrender myself. This kind of music helped me to loosen up in my Christian life.

I'm with Ex10 on this. It is refreshing to see network television putting this kind of thing on TV. And I completely disagree that it resembled anything like Singing Ladies.

I would say that the women in your area are freer to act than the women at the Texas compound. Just as different Twigs/HFCs in TWI were run differently the same is true of FLDS groups.

If these women have outside jobs that means that at least 2-4- hours a week they are exposed to the "real world"--

SO the question is in my mind--after seeing how the other half lives-- what is so abhorrent that they would rather stay where they are.

Clearly they have brains and know how to use them if they can hold jobs or run small businesses.

Again it comes to freedom of choice. Adults should be allowed to stay FLDSS if they want it is only the children forced into sexual liaisons as children or otherwise abused who should be of concern to the government. Although I would like to see the rules on welfare tightened. But that is true across the board as far as I am concerned.

Well, that's where the brainwashing comes in. I remember truly believing that there was no other ministry than TWI, and that all other religion out there was evil and devilish. I wasn't entrenched in TWI as much as these ladies are. They've been brought up from birth.

The lady from Colorado City who was in my NEO class did not talk to anyone while she was there. She didn't even look at you when she was in the restroom at the same time.

Here's what I gather from Oprah and Eckhart Tolle's class. There's a way to experience a spiritual awakening in your life by realizing some of your thought processes which have been dictated by society for many years. I equate this class to evolvement of mankind. For instance, in our grandparents' day, it was acceptable for a man to beat his wife and children and it was acceptable. Nobody got involved in anyone else's life. The abuse was secret in society. Today, there is a different thought in society. People do get involved in others' lives when they see abuse and destruction happening.

Oprah can't be all bad. She isn't insisting her "followers" give 20% of their earnings. If people choose to buy something she is marketing, it is totally up to them. Oprah has used her money for good. She's helped people all over the world. She's opened up an all girls school in Africa where girls are not considered privileged enough to have schooling. She help a lot of Hurricane Katrina survivors get back on their feet. She's a doer. I love that about her. That doesn't mean I agree with everything she's about.