JumpinJive

Anybody else ever wonder why God would allow a lying, malicious, invisible and incredibly powerful being to wreak havoc on his creation? You could get stoned to death in the OT for gathering sticks on the wrong day but this creature is allowed to live and continue his murderous ways without repercussion.

-JJ

Not sure what you're getting at, cman. Do those three lines refer to something in the bible?

Sushi: Good point. It was definitely a journey for me too. I've heard the 'truth' so many times on so many subjects that I figure by now I must know everything about everything. Or maybe everything about something. Or maybe something about nothing.

Ahhhh, never mind.

-JJ

Would that be 1st John, cman? Have you researched the history of that verse? I wouldn't make it your cornerstone if I were you.

-JJ

What saddens me most is that some people have given up searching for an answer. Perhaps they have become agnostic. This is truly sad.

What, exactly, is sad about becoming agnostic? I ultimately don't believe the bible supports the concept of a trinity, probably because you can't find that word or anything like it in there. But I'm not the ultimate arbiter of christian faith and practice. I could be right, I could be wrong. Unfortunately, I have no definitive way of knowing which is the case. I think being an agnostic is an honest position and ultimately the only position that CAN be taken on a whole host of subjects, not just the trinity.

-JJ

Now, let me also say... I believe that I was saved while a member of TWI. Contrary to most trinitarians that you might meet, I do not believe that a person has to be a trinitarian to be saved. On the other hand, I believe that non-trinitarian Christians are seriously handicapped spiritually because of their wrong thinking.

And on it goes. I'm quite sure you'll find numerous non-trinitarians who would say the same of trinitarians. Sadly, neither position is unequivocally provable, hence my agnostic mindset. But Jerry might be on to something. That's one of the better explanations I've heard in quite a while.

You might want to look into some church history during your study. The story of how the trinity came to be a prominent doctrine is quite intriguing.

-JJ

I would say that God created the heavens and the earth, and the laws that control how it

is put together and how things work. In the human realm, there are overarching spiritual

laws that govern many aspects of our lives. Still though, we have free will to decide to do

and think good or evil. And in our time, God has given Satan a certain amount of free will

to roam the earth like a roaring lion and wreak havoc. So is God in control ? Not really.

It seems that God is a benevolent and merciful creator, not a tyrant or dictator. He's looking

for us to come to an understanding of him and by our own free wills love and obey him.

Anybody else see a contradiction in that paragraph?

-JJ

I left for good in late '86 but was already in the hot seat for challenging some of LCM's more caustic remarks. In my heart I was probably gone a year or two earlier.

-JJ

...but what would change in our life if one stopped believing and promoting that Jesus is personally coming from some otherwordly faraway place?

Not much, I don't suspect. Both are speculative in nature and since we don't have any real detail about either, its basically 'the hope' packaged with different dogma. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Its just hard to see how substituting one set of vague and uncertain tenets for another set of the same would have a specific impact on one's daily actions.

That sounded a little harsher than I actually meant it. Hope plays an integral part in our lives and its the hope that's important, not necessarily what that hope is. My thinking on the return has changed more than once through the years, but I just can't remember those changes affecting my life beyond some sense of personal satisfaction that maybe I'm growing and seeing more. Of course, my wife may disagree with that perception...

-JJ

...then, as the Lord continued to teach me patiently, I prayed for God to met out His justice in any way He saw fit.

I can't imagine 500-lb bombs leaving a person with a lot of time for contemplating repentance. I also have a hard time buying into the freeze-dried grace that would allow a brutal murderer instant access to God's Kingdom, whatever that might be and if, indeed, it could possibly be instant. Maybe this is just how God saw fit to answer your prayer. Of course, we won't know anytime soon, if ever.

-JJ

Thanks 2for! Much appreciated! Diane did (does) have a big heart!

-JJ

Yeah. Maybe Craig would be on his way to jail.

-JJ

Anybody actually think that was a hit and not an E2? Gawd, he must be embarrassed watching the highlight reel. I hope 3000 looks a little better!

-JJ

A rather vacuous presentation for such a heady subject, no?

-JJ

this is what we would try to be avoided jj

there is no believe or else anything.......

religions teach this-we have had it with that,

don't'cha think????

Absolutely, Clay! And I agree with Garth too. I just don't see how its done without giving up on literal bible interpretation. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.

-JJ

JJ

care to clarify?????

Care to clarify that also??????

Not really Clay. I think both statements stand on their own. Believe God or suffer the consequences is quite a prevalent theme throughout the bible. That we have a piece of ourselves invested in what we believe is, I think, also quite apparent.

-JJ

I have always wondered if this kind of dialogue is possible. There are spiritual consequences noted in the bible, some dire, for not believing/acting correctly. Then, filter in the ego and self-esteem of the believers themselves, and you have a potentially volatile situation. Passions will always run high, assuming of course, there is some level of commitment to the beliefs.

And how big of a problem on GS is it really? Is it horrible to the point that GreaseSpot Radio lately needs to spend all of its time discussing it? Do we need threads and lists of rules to follow? Is there something going on the moderator(s) can't take care of? Am I missing something?

-JJ

Well, I generally ask about every other year or so, so here we go. I'm still looking for some folks who lived and fellowshipped in Oswego in the early 80s.

I know where some are:

Bonnie Karcher (Nyman)

Brad Dunlap

Joan Theobald (Lyons)

Steve Liguori

Michael Bonanza

But I still can't find some:

Diane Mandeville - Corps

David Taylor - Corps

Debbi Stempel (Willse)

Steve Emert

4 WOWs - One was Beth Something - she was Corps

And anyone else whose name I can't remember. (It sucks getting old!)

Many thanks!

-JJ

Wow. All this and it wasn't even a good book...

-JJ

Yeah, I have talked to my mom, my grandma, and my step-dad. Do I hear them answer? Well I guess that depends how how you define "hear". In the literal, audible sense, never. But I do hear them in my heart. Whether that be some sort of "spritutal connection" or simply my mind telling he what I already know they'd say - - well I lean towards the latter, but leave open the idea that either possibility is valid.

Hmmm. Sounds suspiciously like what happens when I try talking to God!

-JJ

Well, you're certainly welcome, T-Bone! And thank *you* for the response.

...And this top priority is about relationships - with God and other people.

And there is the rub. What exactly does that mean? I've never known what a relationship with God meant beyond a vague good feeling I sometimes got when I prayed. It didn't seem to be any different than the same vague good feelings I sometimes get when talking to a friend, reading an inspiring story or having a beer. But sometimes I was able to convince myself it came directly from God and that maybe some of this stuff was real.

Come to think of it, does God really have to be that subtle? Subtle to the point where his creation can viably conclude His non-existence? If that's the case, why record things like the parting of the Red Sea or the miracles of Jesus? There is plenty of in-your-face, visible heavenly activity in the bible. Why can't God even carry on simple conversation with His children? Try that with one of your own kids and see where it gets you. "Honey, you should have listened for my still small voice that was telling you not to take the car. Now you're grounded!"

As you can tell, I've come to no real conclusions since I started this thread beyond I just don't know. I suspect its a lifetime pursuit and even that might not be enough.

I do, however, agree with sudossuda: markomalley's posts are pretty good.

-JJ

I think the problem is systemic. When you have a supreme court that says with a straight face that pornography constitutes free speech; a free-market economy which uses sex to sell everything from deodorant and razor blades to beer, web hosting and cars; and a visual broadcast medium that uses little else *but* sex to draw viewers to programming even as mundane as newscasts, you are in deeper trouble than you might suspect.

I think the overemphasis on sex in our society distorts reality for many people. I believe this is especially true for teenagers and young adults, especially those who might not quite fit with the 'in' crowd. Life isn't primarily about getting your rocks off. And while not every viewer of porn turns into a child molester, I'm not sure its wise to make it widely and easily accessible. Don't we already have enough problems in this area, things like STDs, broken marriages, teen pregnancy and disorders like bulimia.

And speaking of perverts, did anybody think VPW's Christian Family & Sex class was just plain pornographic? Had he been around for the internet, he might have had his own site.

-JJ

Hi d! Given my agnostic position, I don't think any of it is valid. Or if it is, we have no real way of knowing that. Strangely enough though, I'd be interested in your scriptural references for personal prophecy. I can think of some isolated incidents but nothing that would justify a regular practice of it.

The 'poo' example is excellent allan. A rather vain foretelling, but I'd bet they're still talking about how great it was. It reminds me of the bible code. Funny how you can 'see' things when you look back over events that already happened.

Good points, pond. I forgot about the practice sessions. Now *there's* something I've never seen in the bible. I remember being told to practice tongues with interpretation too. But I can't remember if that was TWI, CES or both.

-JJ

I agree. There was never anything about it (the incident or pp in general) that made sense to me. It seemed pride- and ego-based and I just had enough of that at the time.

-JJ

Interesting point on the 12-step programs, MadeItThrough. I've found those involved to be honest, loving and open to spiritual exploration and growth. All the things TWI should have been but wasn't.

-JJ

It felt and sounded like a horoscope. General enough to be vaguely applicable and complimentary enough to be enticing and make you want to come back for more. It never had any real meaning, at least as far as I could tell. Yet people were making life-changing decisions based on it. People were reading things into it like who to date, who to marry and whether to take a job or not.

I raised my voice loudly one night after the 'group leader' (for lack of a better term) played a tape of his pp made at a leaderhip meeting for him. He might as well have drawn tarot cards or got his palm read. But he was willing to make life decisions based on it. Faith or foolishness? I never went back.

-JJ