JumpinJive

You're making sense, ex. I had no problem following your thoughts. To me though, I remember putting forth those same types of arguments when I couldn't explain something or other in real life that seemed so very clear in the bible. I felt like I was apologizing and making excuses all the time. It didn't get better after 20 years so I stopped trying to make it fit. I suppose that's one way to grow up! :)

Has anyone looked at CES' position on personal prophecy in more detail? I really did find that practice quite offensive. And how about Momentous? A lot of folks had a cow over that one. I don't think they are actively involved with Momentus any more but I'm not sure about the PP.

One other point on my mind: I loved the old CES forums. I learned a lot from them and the posters there really had me thinking in new directions. It was great! Then they decided to start censoring the content and eventually shut it down. They certainly have that right but that was very disappointing.

-JJ

I find this 'interpretation' discussion very enlightening. The first time I heard John Lynn teach it, it blew me away. Wow, no wonder the TWI version was so uncomfortable to me. I wasn't doing it right! I at once felt relieved and excited. Maybe there was hope for me in the Christian life.

But I had to wonder how something so 'basic' could be taught incorrectly in the first place. Okay, maybe the docta's ego got the better of him. But if God is truly inspiring us during interpretation, how the heck could we screw it up? Wouldn't somebody, somewhere have felt the inspiration and rendered it correctly? Is the voice of the Almighty so weak that even those seeking him and trying to do his will can't hear it?

In the end, how interpretation, or pretty much any other doctrine from the bible is handled, is fundamentally one's opinion. There is no way to prove or disprove it either way. As Belle and ex10 noted, there are things more important than doctrine.

Thank God!

-JJ

I was somewhat involved with CES close to the beginning. Well, with John Lynn anyways as he made the rounds in the 'aftermath'. He presented some great material and it really helped me put TWI in perspective.

I dropped out of everything for a while but tried jumping back in a few years ago as CES had a local fellowship. That might have been about the time they starting formally expanding beyond their educational roots. But they started in on that personal prophecy stuff and that was it for me.

Love both the Johns though. I think they tried to do it right. Well, as right as you can when you're trying to define doctrine from an equivocal source.

-JJ

No need to apologize T-Bone! I thought it was a great post and a relevant topic. Every group needs a marketing plan and the church certainly isn't the first to tap into our natural desires for health and prosperity. I would agree that this has caused folks to leave certain churches, although not necessarily become agnostics. As Garth noted, "the nonsensical concepts of the belief system" is what probably pushes people over the edge. That's what did it for me, anyway.

Belle: Excellent points. And "I don't have the answers" is about as succinct a description of agnosticism as I can imagine.

-JJ

Hey T-Bone-

I would guess there's an element of truth to what you're saying. TWI certainly promoted the health-and-wealth gospel: "...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." And I would have to admit I have fallen into that line of thinking on numerous occasions.

But I think the agnostic question goes well beyond that. At one point fairly early on I started feeling sleazy about asking God for personal goodies, and stopped praying for things like that altogether. No matter. I felt better about it but there was no discernable change in, well, anything.

I think it was George Aar who noted in another thread that the idea of all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing God just doesn't line up with the facts of everyday life.

I just can't argue with that. Whether or not the top is off of Daddy's cookie jar.

-JJ

Amen George! That's why I reverted too!! I just couldn't keep the concepts settled comfortably in my head any longer. I posted more on this on Chas' "Becoming Agnostic...." thread.

Thanks for posting Chas. Aren't you in MA? How do you get away with being conservative??

-JJ

Chas, for me it was a slow ride. I loved PFAL and thought it was the greatest thing on the planet. Wow, a real God and a real way of knowing Him. How cool is that? After a while though I noticed things weren't quite living up to expectations. Prayers weren't being answered, tongues with interpretation wasn't very inspiring, other manifestations were in short supply, etc., etc. Of course, I viewed this as my fault. If only my believing was bigger!

I ended up walking from the Way because of the arrogance and manipulation, but I still tried to keep in touch with the 'things of God.' This was through the offshoots mostly and a stint as an elder in the PCUSA. The beliefs differed a bit, okay, dramatically, but the same ole lack of power persisted.

So, thinking there was still hope, I signed up for a bible study class through Atlanta Bible College (Anthony Buzzard's school). While working my way through the Pentateuch, my mind started wondering about some of the things I was reading. I could accept the fact that Abraham was a liar and Jacob was a bit of a seedy character. Okay, so Moses was a murderer and an awful lot of Egyptians, mostly innocent, were tormented with plagues and later killed by the angel of death. Maybe God had reasons I can't see for all the ritualistic detail described in the other books of the law. Perhaps there's something useful is spilling buckets of blood and eviscerating animals, burning their innards on makeshift altars. Maybe I'll understand in time.

Then Joshua describes the Israelites beginning to enter the promised land and a few things begin to really stand out. Of 600,000 military-aged men coming out of Egypt, 2 actually got to see the promised land. Apparently, even directly witnessing the power and continued presence of God was not enough to convince His created beings that they should listen to and obey Him. Not even Moses, the man of God who led them there, got to go in. Upon entering the promised land, the Israelites began the systematic butchering of the inhabitants. Men, women, children and sometimes sheep, goats and any other living thing that was found. Okay, maybe I'll understand in time, but now I'm starting to get a little stressed. If Moses didn't get to see the promised land after all he did for God, I'm thinking my chances of entering the kingdom are mighty slim at best.

The book of Judges contains such characters as Gideon, Jephthah and Samson. These all committed gross sins despite being called of God. Hmmm. Very hard to understand. They lead Israel yet easily fell prey to the sickest of temptations. Then comes the most atrocious story of all, the story of the Levite and his concubine. If that story doesn't cause one's stomach to roll, I don't know what would.

By the time I reached Samuel, Kings and Chronicles, I was flabbergasted. I also began seeing contradictions, both literal and figurative. I already mentioned children being put to death for the sins of their fathers. Achan falls into this category as do some of the children of the kings. Beyond this, how many children did Jesse have, seven or eight? Did Asa tear down the high places or didn't he? Was man created before or after plants and herbs? Did Saul know David before or after his encounter with Goliath? I should note here that after further investigation it appears I am not alone in my concerns about these records. Scholars can't reconcile them either. Google bible contradictions and you'll be overwhelmed.

Does this mean I don't believe the Bible contains spiritual truth? Probably not. But it does put me in the position of having to decide what is truth and what isn't. Not good, you might say. But I'd argue you do the same thing. Many well-meaning and studious Christians have come to bad conclusions about God. In fact, outside the group(s) a 'believer' hangs around with, wouldn't the 'believer' say they ALL have? Despite assertions that the careful and diligent study of Scripture will lead anyone who is wholeheartedly seeking God to the truth, it doesn't appear to happen that way. Several thousand denominations attest to this. Is holy spirit really leading people to all truth? How does that work?

Why is there a Satan? Have you considered that? We have a God who seems to be quick to execute judgment on humanity for the smallest of infractions yet allows a lying, murderous, treacherous, rebellious and invisible spirit being of tremendous power to not only live but to wreak havoc on the lives of God's children. By the time its done, Satan will have led billions--probably TRILLIONS!--into the second death at the resurrection. Not to mention the misery he will cause during life in this present age.

Well, that's enough rambling for now. I can find no way to reconcile what I've discovered over the past 20 or so years. Given this, I find it much easier to say 'I don't know' than try to explain the activities of a transcendant God.

-JJ

I came across this statement in the March edition of "The American Spectator" (yes, I'm an unrepentant conservative). The article, by Paul Johnson, is about optimism and I found this particular part of the discussion intriguing.

...the world we live in is the best of all possible worlds, and we must make the best of it and improve it rather than bemoan and reject it...the trilemma: if this world is not the best possible, God must either not have known how to make it better, or not have been able to, or not have chosen to do so. The first contradicts his omniscience, the second his omnipotence, the third his benevolence...

I spent so many years beating this world out of my head because it was "fallen" and "corrupt" and ruled by the devil that I never thought much about potentially improving it. I seem to remember lots of teachings stating that the only thing that would help this world was to preach the rightly-divided truth of the word. And of course, TWI was the only ministry able to do that properly. So, all monies, talents, time and efforts should be dedicated to them. I felt it was a great sin to do otherwise.

On the whole, I think I might have missed out on a lot of opportunities, things like community sharing, donations to charitable organizations and other forms of giving that might have helped others and helped me to live a fuller life. Only recently am I starting to realize how selfish and hard I was and shut off to other possibilities.

Has anybody else ever felt like that? Do you give in ways not associated with religion? Do you think we're living in the best possible world? How does that concept jibe with biblical teachings? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

-JJ

Note: The article notes that the trilemma is associated with a guy named Leibnitz and was published in something called his "Theodicee." I haven't googled for this stuff yet.

I hear ya, rascal. Not that I care all that much anymore, but I sure got tired of hearing unrepentant sinners blabber on about their righteous standing before God. Ahhh, repentance--one of those pesky little concepts that got pushed to the back of the bus in twi. Actually, that one may have even started there. Not good for marketing you know.

-JJ

Here's the updated version JJ. All the links have bee updated just this evening.

PFAL REVIEW

Thanks for the updated link Jerry. Speaking of excitement, I also remember how thrilled I was when I first started reading the PFAL REVIEW thread. The excitement was at least on par with PFAL. And lasted a lot longer! Thanks for all your work on that. Everyone else too!

-JJ

Jumpin Jive

wow that is a beautiful picture.

I feel like I live in the pond ghetto now.

You're too kind, Pond! Your's isn't too shabby either. Love the color!

-JJ

Good question, George. I used to know people who kept a close count! You were hot stuff when you hit double digits! Surely you found favor with God and men at that point...

I remember being excited when I first took the class too. But alas, excitement is no guarantee of truth. You should probably check out http://ourworld.cs.com/PFALREVIEW/ when you get a chance. I'm sure there are a lot of posts here on GS too.

-JJ

I'm not all that sure about the trinity debate but I'm relatively confident that who/what God and Jesus are constitute some of the most important questions facing humanity. That this isn't unequivocally defined is somewhat scary to me. I feel like one of those guys in Acts, worshipping I know not what. Well, maybe that's why I don't worship so much any more. At least not in the conventional sense of the word.

-JJ

I stumbled across this quote from JBarrax on another thread. It was stated in regards to a post by TheInvisibleDan on Albert Schweitzer who rejected the traditional view of Christian origins and Jesus Christ and devoted his life to the welfare of African tribesmen in Lambarene. (The topic can be found here.)

So in other words, Schweitzer studied enough to realize the basic dogma's of Christian religions were flawed. So rather than continuing to try to find a perfect dogma, he tossed them aside and dedicated himself to helping his fellow man. Sounds like a plan to me. :-)

Ya know, that might just be the essence of where I'm trying to go. Try as I might, I find it highly doubtful I'll ever come to any sure conclusions regarding the many, varied and often conflicting doctrines associated with God, Christianity and religion in general. Perhaps my efforts would be better spent attempting to do some good in the world. Lord knows I've been threatening to do that for quite some time now! :)

-JJ

No. he doesn't hang out here Jumpinjive. Be gald. I'm afraid that he would get right in the fray with Mike, Allan, jkboeme, and their various caounterparts - and it wouldn't necessarily be pretty. He's a lawyer and he doesn't have a whole lot of patience for some of the stuff that goes on here.

Hah! Well, you know what they say about lawyers...

Just kidding...

-JJ

Oh yes! He was never Corps. We left together during our first year of marriage - all "thanks" to lcm's letter. I never signed up to follow a man - I could have done that with what I left behind. I instead chose to follow God and have not looked back since.

Hubby had major problems with twi's teaching on forgiveness and put it in a thesis way before anyone else was figuring out it was bunk. (At least on public record.)

He's doing well now and taking one day at a time.

Very cool, dooj! Half the battle I think is being willing to wrestle with the various possiblities. They are almost infinite and sorting through them can be a daunting task. It seems like there is concentration of those willing to do the wrestling here at GS though. I'm glad this place is around! Does your hubby ever hang out here?

-JJ

No problem, David! And thanks for the explanation. I wholeheartedly agree with your statements, including the one about being raised Catholic. I see we have some common background.

doojable: "I think he just finally came to the conclusion that there must be a God. Now he's working on how to go from there."

Now there's a topic, eh? We're just exploring that "how to go from there" part from a slightly different perspective. Was your hubby part of wayworld?

-JJ

I see the value of David's statement as a reminder to all that we still live in a pluralistic society and we shouldn't destroy each other as a result of our differences in religious dogma. Maybe that's not what he intended, but that's what I got out of it.

I don't know, Mark. He sounded ticked off to me, like he was trying to say shut up and quit talking about stuff like this, its all pointless. But I definitely agree with your point about the polarizing that goes on around this board. Lot's of different experiences. Its kind of invigorating.

-JJ

That was a wise statement from dmiller. Was there a point to it? This is a discussion forum. Folks will always have at it and then go do their own thing. It the natural order of things.

-JJ

George: LOL on chasing rainbows and being played for a fool. I've done both too, more times than I like to remember.

Mo, I don't doubt your intentions. You've never given me reason to believe you're anything less than a big-hearted and kind person. I appreciate that.

I suppose I keep trying because I really do want God to be there and I still hold a hope that He is. To reiterate, I am not an athiest. I just can't reconcile the vision of God as promulgated by contemporary religion(s) and the world I see around me. I don't want to believe that God doesn't exist, but realistically I have to believe that is one possibility. Its not the only possiblity but it certainly is one of them.

-JJ

Since the assertion of this thread is "Assume there is no GOd' I would say that that places the burden of proof squarely in the non believing camp

Mo, you really need to pay more attention to the content of the posts. Nobody here is attempting to prove God doesn't exist. I'm glad your faith works for you but some of us can't get to that place based on our current understanding of religion, spirituality and the world around us. And its not for lack of trying. Pat answers about reading scripture just don't cut it anymore. Been there, done that. It doesn't fit. What now?

-JJ

Okay now I have a question (if it sounds familiar it is because I just Plagerized Mark )

Ok my skeptical friends

What is the quality and quantity of evidence that you can provide in order to show that there IS NOT a supernatural entity that is spiritual (i.e., not consisting of matter) and non-corporeal (i.e., does not occupy a finite space) in nature? Keep in mind that this evidence would, by nature, have to be effects consequent to the non -existence of this entity,.

Mo, it is not now nor has it ever been my intention to claim, much less prove, that a supernatural entity doesn't exist. My position is that I don't know. I would love to know that I know that I know but that is just not my experience. Hence this topic.

I'm open to there being a God. If He exists, how do we know Him? Can we know Him? Is the bible reliable? If there is no God, as the topic proposes for discussion purposes, what are the other options? How does one deal with that conclusion? Is there something inside us driving us to the spiritual so that we need to fulfill that desire with something else? Is there life after confronting the inconsistencies of the bible and those who claim to speak for God?

These are the types of questions that are going through my head and that I'm hoping to spark some discussion on. Its not about God not existing.

-JJ

If God doesn't want you, you're screwed and there's nothing you can do about it?

Maybe that's the key, George. There could be something to that predestination stuff. I often wondered if that was the reason I never saw any of that manifested power as described and promised in the bible.

-JJ

and signs shall follow those that believe

who are the ones that see these signs?

Have you seen signs, CM? What would they be like? Immediate and irrefutable? I'm just curious. I remember too well the all-9-all-the-time shtick. What would the signs be?

-JJ

Mark, I'm not sure that's fair to George. List some evidence, unequivocal evidence, and I suspect George would pay attention. I don't see why this is so difficult for God to do. You quoted Paul but Paul saw Jesus, didn't he? The apostles saw the risen Jesus, didn't they? Moses saw a burning bush, didn't he? Live, unequivocal evidence is not unprecedented, biblically speaking.

-JJ