Steve Lortz

ex10 - I have never thought of you as being "pozest" (maybe "pro-zest", but NEVER "pozest") Momentus affected different people differently because of the different things they did in their heads while the training took place. I've never had the kinds of experiences Pat has had with people who took Momentus. But I do believe there were spiritual influences. If you remember, when my wife had an episode on the second morning, a number of people came over and started trying to cast out demons. I was setting there asking the Lord for discerning of spirits, and He didn't show me any. I remember Dan put the demon chasers down in such a dramatic way that the topic of spirit influence never came up again. NEVER. Yet I now believe they were there, taking advantage of whoever they could. TWI overplayed the "you're possessed" card. The things taught in the advanced class were things Wierwille gleaned for HOAXERS. But that doesn't mean there aren't evil spirits, and that they don't try to trick us from time-to-time. The kinds of emotional trauma and deliberate confusion that Momentus hurls CAN prompt a person to open himself up. Again, though I may refer to spirit influence occassionally, I don't use it with the same understanding TWI taught us, nor do I use it as a device for discrediting people I don't like for other reasons. (If I don't like you I'll TELL you why!) I like you, ex10! Love, Steve

Raf - You wrote, You're right, Raf, they ARE aware they are replicating TWI. What they are unconscious of is the truth that they are replicating a CULT. They don't even consider it. TWI was too much of their lifestyle. They couldn't have it anymore. They are replicating it, fish AND bones. Love, Steve

Sorry, I did a double post. Love, Steve

Context, oldiesman, context! Put the clause back into its context. TWI may have talked about recovering the integrity of God's Word, but in practice, Wierwille produced twisted interpretations that allowed him to teach whatever he wanted. I personally believe he did it knowingly, to gain power and money for satisfying his personal lusts. You ask, "How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume. There are other wolf-in-sheeps'-clothing organizations besides the Way and some of its off-shoots. But if you presume that most, if not all, Christian denominations in the U.S. engage in that type of activity, I suggest you widen the circle of your Christian fellowship. The fellowship the faculty members have at the interdenominational academy where I teach is just as sweet as the fellowship I experienced at any TWI event, MORE sweet than in most twigs. We aren't trying to put a phoney class together. We're trying to enable young Christians to function in the real world. You wrote, "I prefer to look on CES' doctrinal teachings as beliefs that you or I may not concur with; rather than they must have some sinister evil selfish motive behind it... I would PREFER to think that way, too, except I had a personal hand in the evolution of CES doctrine. I was a contributor to, and on the editorial staff of "Dialogue" magazine. They used to send me their book manuscripts to comment on before publication. I taught at one of CES' Chicago weekends, and on one of their bi-monthly tapes. I used to do some of their scripture indexes. I got to hear JAL's thinking evolve in the weekly teaching at his home fellowship. CES published "22 Principles of Biblical Interpretation". These principles were regurgitations of things that had been taught in PFAL. I demonstrated from Scripture that three of the principles contradict each other. They stopped their ears. They have used their ultradispensationalist interpretations to say that the revelation in Romans is inferior to the revelation in Ephesians, when Paul says the same thing in both Romans 11 and Ephesians 2. They say that prophets who make mistakes are NOT speaking presumptuously. They say that God doesn't have foreknowledge, without realizing that either makes the universe deterministic with no free will at all, or the fulfillments of the Bible's prophecies are flukes. All to shore up their contention "Don't Blame God!". They reduce God to the level of a man, a sappy man at that. One friend said they make God look like the Pillsbury Doughboy. You can poke Him in the gut all you want to, the only thing He will do is giggle. They make God IRRESPONSIBLE. They call Jesus mistaken. They say JESUS was WRONG, when the things He said don't square with THEIR theology. Do they have "some sinister selfish motive behind it"? I don't think so. They say eat the fish and throw away the bones. I just don't think they can actually tell the difference between the fish and the bones, because they STILL HAVEN'T come to grips with the truth that TWI is and was a cult. I just spent some time looking over their web site, something I haven't done in a whale. I see they are now starting up a WOW Ambassador program. Since they don't acknowledge that TWI was a cult, they are unconsciously replicating it. THEY don't think they are a cult, but they are. Love Steve

mj412 - You're right when you point out that John's appeal to the dead Wierwille's approval for what John is doing sounds insincere. John did stretch his post TWI fledgling wings by trashing Wierwille and passing a coffee can (no wicker horn of plenty for John) for donations. Love, Steve

WordWolf - You brought up the idea that the letter Jeff posted might be sooo old that it no longer accurately reflects John Lynn's thinking. Hey, Jeff. Why did you post such a stale letter? Or is it John's thinking that's stale? Love, Steve

mj412 - I can imagine the feelings of disappointment and betrayal that prompt you to vent the way you do regarding John Lynn and CES. They disappointed and betrayed me, too, as well as many others. It's true, they mistakenly think they're different from TWI because they can point to a few doctrinal differences. But their basic attitude, that they can make the Word fit their theology by manipulating interpretations, is identical to TWI's. They have set themselves above the Word of God. That's a dangerous place to be... VERY dangerous in all sorts of ways. Back in the New Testament days, the Pharisees set themselves above the Word of God by teaching that Levitical laws governing temple activities should be extended to everyone in the whole country of Judaea. We see what happened with them. Jesus said they were the blind leading the blind. The principals of CES set themselves above the Word of God by wrongly imagining they can "rightly divide" it. They, too, are the blind leading the blind. They are very INTO picking the motes out of our eyes. After all, why should we pay them if they don't provide us with that service? But they DO NOT SEE the planks in their own eyes. The problems CES (as opposed to TWI) has faced in the area of sex have been problems of legalism, rather than license. After John's divorce from Pat, he wasn't running around getting whatever he could. He was agonizing over whether it would be sinful, for him as a divorced man, to ever date again. There was a faction in the Living Word Fellowship that wanted to call the people who were shouldering responsibilities "deacons". The "leadership team" was dead set against that, though. They felt that calling them "deacons" would disqualify John because of I Timothy 3:12 and his divorce. Yes, mj412, in their heart attitude, CES is still like TWI. Yes, they still err in the catagory of sex and marriage. But they aren't practicing the adultery that ran rampant in TWI. In that respect, they flip-flopped 180 degrees, to the exact opposite direction. I'm thankful for your life, mj412. I know you've been deeply hurt. Stick around. We'll see if we can't keep that sort of thing from happening again. Love, Steve

I know your situation, Raf. I thought my comments might help you see why some people's responses to John's letter might seem to you to be a little overboard. Reading JAL write about "choosing to be a victim" is for some people what it might be like for some others to find themselves back inside the motor coach once more. Love, Steve

Raf - The language of "choosing to be a victim" has some very specific nuances for those who've been involved with the Momentus training. They are NOT healthy nuances. They are nuances of evading responsibility for the "seeming" damage Momentus and its grads have done to others. It only SEEMS that Momentus or its grads caused damage. The damage was REALLY caused by the person's choice to become a victim. CES claims to have put its associations with Momentus in the past, but at a very real, unconscious level, it has no more done that than it has put its associations with TWI in the past. John's pontifications about "choosing to be a victim" sound very innocuous on the surface, but they can be bone chilling to someone who was ravaged by Momentus and then dumped by CES. I'm not going to trust leaders who lead their people into traps, and then refuse to take responsibility for the damage caused by their crappy, arrogant leadership. They did it before, and from the sound of John's letter, they haven't learned a d--- thing. Love, Steve

oldies - I devised a test to see whether or not Mark Graeser would lie to me. I told him it was a test before I presented it. I told him how the test would work. He knew it was a test. He went ahead and lied to me. I don't think the boys at CES are evil or malicious. But they have decieved themselves, and they are deceiving others. Love, Steve P.S. - CES publishes a list of ways in which they are different from TWI. It might do them some good to consider ways in which they are unconsciously STILL LIKE TWI. Their arrogance is a big one.

Dittos to what Zixar said. My father-in-law is suffering from Alzheimer's and he has occassional TIAs. It's part of the progression of the disease. I have mini-strokes from time to time, but they usually effect my vision. Have a doctor check you out. You may have high blood pressure. Love, Steve

Thanks for posting a link to the hold-harmess agreement, Pat. Sometimes my wife DOES think of me as a curio :-) Love, Steve

I don't think Jeff is here to attack. I don't think John Lynn would come here to attack. I DO think they would come here to draw attention to their own site in an indirect attept at recruitment. I think CES' biggest problem is the fact that they trust their own hearts, and believe their own hype. The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked. Who can know it? The Word of God is... the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart. If people think they can make the Word mean that they want It to mean, simply by putting forward a "logical", plausible argument, then they don't really have a critic, and their hearts deceive them. The CES motto (the last time I looked) was "Speaking the truth in love". The attitude I saw them display was: it must be true, WE spoke it; it must be loving, WE did it. Love, Steve

Today I sent the following by e-mail to John Lynn: I guess we'll see what we see. Love, Steve

Jeff - It's cool to know that John doesn't mind you posting his old form letters here, but you still haven't answered the question, "WHY do you do it?" If he's really so hot to tell us how much he loves us, why don't you let him do it himself? Love, Steve

I haven't written much about the spiritual side of Momentus, for several reasons. First, the things we were taught about spirit activity in TWI (ESPECIALLY the Advanced Class) were SOOOO WRONG! Second, many people here no longer believe in spirit activity, and there are plenty enough reasons to reject Momentus on the basis of its physical and emotional abuses. Third, understanding of spiritual things can be highly subjective, and therefore less accessible to objective demonstration. Those things being said, I agree with Pat's assessment, When the Lord opened my eyes to what had happened to me during the sixteen months after I had taken Momentus, He directed my attention to Jeremiah 17:5. Love, Steve

I haven't seen the movie, yet, but I'm looking forward to it. I remember reading the Isaac Asimov stories (about Adam Link?) when I was a teen-ager back in the '60s. I know from the previews running on TV that it's going to be more like "Magnus, Robot Fighter" than like the Asimov stories. But that's cool! I liked Magnus, too! Love, Steve

$10,000 versus $150? How can Momentus stay in business at such crazy, give-away prices?!? volume! VOLUME!! VOLUME!!! Love, Steve

oldiesman - You asked, "Am I on track in saying that Momentus sounds like an inexpensive way to get deprogrammed?" You're spot on about the deprogramming. Momentus uses many of the same techniques. HOWEVER, you go off the track when you use the word "inexpensive". It is VERY expensive, mostly in terms of things other than money! I appreciate your contribution around Greasespot, oldies. It wouldn't be the same enjoyable place without you! Love, Steve

Momentus effected different people to different degrees. I think the key to some of the differences lays in how much commitment different people were willing to invest in the training. I know one person who went through the same training as ex10 and I did, who was nearly uneffected. Later on, she told me she had been passively resistant through the whole thing, and had barely invested enough effort to escape the trainers' personal "attention". Mark Graeser went into Momentus highly committed AGAINST the training. He fought the trainers tooth and nail, until he finally broke. Then he became one of the MOST committed people FOR Momentus. A commitment that has warped the doctrines of CES. I suspect many people had an attitude similar to mine, "As long as I'm here, I'm committed 100%, but once it's over, it's OVER." The Momentus training fostered an elitism among its grads that made the Way Corps look like the Mickey Mouse Club. I never attended any of the local grad meetings. After my experiences in The Way, I couldn't stomach the thought of being another "grad" of ANYTHING. If I HAD attended the secret grad meetings, I would have become aware sooner of the truth about certain things happening in The Living Word Fellowship. The Momentus grads hijacked the leadership team by driving non-grads out (using techniques learned in the Momentus training), and then began using parts of the meetings to promote Momentus. It looked very casual and spontaneous on the surface, but at heart, it was all carefully orchestrated, in order to maximize recruiting. In the Momentus training we were "taught" by word that the proper response to criticism is to relax, smile politely, and say "Thank you for loving me enough to share that with me." But by practise we were taught to respond to criticism with vicious fault-finding in the person who raised the criticism. That's why many of the grads promoting Momentus turn into pit-bulls when somebody raises objections, or even simply asks inconvenient questions about the training. The most insidious evil of the Momentus training is the hold-harmless agreement. Trusting people who mean what they say and say what they mean, in signing the hold-harmless agreement, unthinkingly commit themselves to NOT RECOGNIZING the true damage Momentus does. That includes the deceptive physical, emotional and spiritual manipulation involved in the exercises. Those people are primed to accept the trainer's deceptive, nonsensical explanations without asking any critical questions. The hold-harmless agreement also fosters a callous, cold-hearted indifference to the suffering of the people who succumb to Momentus' "psychologically dangerous" exercises. After all, that person who had a nervous breakdown... that person who committed suicide... that couple who got divorced... , it must have been because THEY were WEAK. It couldn't be because of Momentus. Momentus is HARMLESS. Well, all for now. Love, Steve

Evan - I apologize for hammering on YOU. The intention was to hammer on Momentus. The Momentus grads I would REALLY like to hammer on don't want to hear me anymore. ex10 - As I have said before, I have held you in very high regard, and still do. You remind me of my brother and sisters. We don't always agree on everything, but we still love the heck out of each other. I don't think you're being obtuse or "blond" about Momentus. You're just a trusting person who accepted the Momentus trainers' explanations for what they were doing. I can't object to that. I did it too, at the time. But Momentus was designed, from the ground up, to be deceptive. Deception was in EVERYTHING the trainers did. They didn't care if people were hurt by what they were doing. They didn't care if people got anything beneficial out of what they were doing, either. They only cared about our money, and about breaking and remolding us into recruiting machines so they could get even MORE people's money. I know your icon is Grace Kelly, but I still enjoy imagining it is Ginger Rogers! Love, Steve

Danny asked, Evan may not remember, but I do. Here's how the life-boat exercise went. It was the last exercise of the day, after we were all worn out. The lights were dimmed. We were told to sit with our eyes closed while Larry Pinci led us through the guided imagery of being on a cruise ship, how wonderful everything was. Then the ship started to sink. (This just seemed hokey to me. Maybe it was because Larry's delivery wasn't up to snuff. Maybe it was the four years experience I had living on a submarine.) Next, each one of us had to get up in front of the group (about 60 in our case) and tell what he/she would do, and why. Any attempt to escape by a means other than the life-boat was disallowed by the trainers. Early persons who gave up their seat out of what Danny called the "well-known, traditional Christian virtue of 'self-sacrifice'" were hooted and jeered and mocked by the trainers, so that option suffered an early demise. What the trainers wanted was for everyone to make a pitch as to why he or she personally should be on the boat. After everyone told what they would do, we were all lined up in a single line around the room walls, facing the center, and we were told to take our name tags off and to pocket them. Each of us was issued about a half-a-dozen popcycle sticks (I think it was actually five, but I'm no longer certain of the exact number). Then, one-by-one, we were personally escorted along the line by one of the trainers. When we came to each person, we had to stop, look him or her squarely in the eyes, and let that person know whether or not we thought he or she deserved to be in the life-boat. This was the form for letting him or her know: We had to look him or her squarely in the eyes, say his or her name, and say "You die" or "You live". If we couldn't remember his or her name, we had to say "I didn't care enough about you to learn your name", and then "You die" or "You live". If we said "You live" to a person, we had to give him or her one of our popcycle sticks. But we only had a few. In Evan's case, there were about forty people in that line. In the Momentus training ex10 and I attended there were about sixty. Nearly sixty times, we had to stand in front of somebody, look them in the eyes and say "You die". Nearly sixty times, we had to stand there looking somebody square in the eyes and hear them say 'You die". It was bad enough with somebody whose name you couldn't remember... "I didn't care enough about you to learn your name. You die" It was worse with the people you knew, who you wanted to save but couldn't because you didn't have enough popcycle sticks. "Ex10, you die". "Steve Lortz, you die." In all probability, that's what we said to each other. Not on a computer discussion forum, but eyeball-to-eyeball in real life. Over... and over... and over... again. Everyone was melted into tears and bawling before this step of the excercise was done. It was the climax of the emotional abuse. It was the point Margaret Thaler Singer described, That wasn't the end though. Next came the counting of the sticks. The trainer called out, "Anyone with no sticks, into the water." Those with no sticks stretched out in the middle of the floor, pretending to be dead. We were told to reflect on what our epitaph should be. "Anyone with only one stick, into the water." And so on, until the number of people still standing matched the capacity of the life-boat. But the people in the life-boat didn't get off scott free. Once they were in the boat (a row of chairs), each one of us on the floor had to choose one of the survivers, tell him or her what our epithaph should be, and who to deliver it to. The survivors were expected to remember them all, a task they COULDN'T do. The whole experience was OVERWHELMING. It was designed to be OVERWHELMING. The Momentus trainers deliberately OVERWHELMED us with guilt, grief and remorse. AND IT WORKED. By the end of the life-boat exercise, our emotional circuits were FRIED. Then Dan, NOT Larry, conducted a de-brief. The de-brief was shocking, too, because Dan wasn't acting the way he had up to that point. He was no longer the vicious ogre trainer, he was an avuncular teddy-bear, explaining to us how important we were, and how we didn't really value ourselves as much as he did. How could we NOT want to believe him, while we were still recovering from such gut-wrenching self devaluation? Evan wrote, "They very clearly TOLD us what the exercise was about. Namely, showing people when they don't properly value their own lives. IE, people who didn't vote for themselves (which was quite a few) were asked to consider why they didn't value their own life. ie, implying that it's not a good thing. I'm telling you in the words they told us." That's right, Evan. That IS what Dan told us in the debriefing. But stop and think about it. Because Dan said it, does that mean it's true? How vulnerable had he made us, just before he said those words? Did the actual experience of the exercise enhance our sense of self-worth, or destroy it? Momentus (under whatever name) pretends to be a "Christian" training. Jesus taught "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). What does the life-boat exercise teach? Love, Steve

Evan - You wrote, "Steve, what you said about finances doesn't compute. If Lynn got all those people into the thing, how much of the $150 a head went to the Momentus people. None according to you. it all went to the local sponsor." You need to read more carefully. Here's what I wrote, "The Momentus organization required the local sponsors to pay the cost of the training up front. In return, the local sponsors received the franchise for selling seats in the training." The local sponsors PAID $150 per projected head BEFORE the Momentus people would even schedule the training. After that, the local sponsors were expected to recoup whatever they could by filling the class. It was like, if I had been a twig coordinator, and I wanted to run PFAL, I would have had to pay HQ $210 before I could schedule the class. Then, I would be expected to collect $30 from each of the seven new students in order to replace the $210 I had shelled out to HQ. If I signed up nine people instead of seven, I would get to keep the extra money, and I'd be $60 ahead. But if I only signed up four new students, I would lose $90. That's how the Robbinses lost $6,000 over the course of the three Momentus trainings they sponsored. Momentus got the money, ALL OF IT, before the trainings were even scheduled. Momentus was, and is (no matter what word they've deceptively changed the title to), nothing more than a cash cow. Love, Steve

Double post. Sorry

ex10 - I don't have any problems with your position on the Momentus training. I myself believe to this day that I received both revelation and some deliverance from the Lord during our Momentus experience. But I have since come to believe that revelation and deliverance were IN SPITE of, rather than because of, Momentus. I felt much as you do for about sixteen months after the training. But I saw some horrible things going on among the people around me. I prayed for understanding, and when the Lord answered that prayer, He did it big time. For those of us who continue to believe what the Bible says, there are VERY SERIOUS consequences for the foolish, unthinking things we did during Momentus. It's Jeremiah 17:5 stuff. Love, Steve