Ham

Yep. I heard all of those arguments, and more. "Well, they REALLY weren't Jews to begin with" Of course that was genetically disproven. "Well, lots of other people died in the camps. Jehovah's witnesses, Homosexuals, etc., etc." That's nice. But so what? How in God's name does that justify murdering ANYBODY, no less targeting a specific group for utter destruction? I don't get it. Even in my Vey days, I had doubts about what Loy and Vic said about the holocaust. I think I said "uh huh" and just "held it in abeyance". Should have run like hell. I think people can't fathom the enormity of it. Maybe that's one reason the deniers attack the credible, first hand witnesses of the horror. It's hard to ignore somebody's personal story.

Pure Evil.. and I think the closest second to that is to deny it ever happened. Or to say that it wasn't as bad as all that. Or.. on and on. It may be a "bitter pill to swallow"- but I think people are far better off knowing what happened. I remember "good" ole loy trying to "protect the hearts of OUR young people" in these regards. Sure doing them a favor, I'm sure. If it hasn't already, some day the truth will hit them in the face. That's not protection- that's just setting them up for ridicule, embarrasment and shame. Nothing wrong with getting sick about something, if it is appropriate.

Probably no way he could reconcile THAT with his theology..

Belle, I hope you got them back again. I "dumped" about two hundred vinyl albums, half of which would probably be worth a fortune today. The CD's versions are really nice though, they don't skip. Amazing what we did with "secular" stuff. Had more going for it than the little second rate "religion" we were in..

Happy Birthday to you, happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Oakspear, happy birthday to you. Hey, what's good for Exie has gotta be good for Oak.. Happy Birthday.

My other related thought on this is: why do some people find it so EASY to believe this? The evidence that there was indeed a holocaust is staggering. You have SO much to explain away. The pictures, the tattoed numbers on the few survivors, the medical "experiments", the camps themselves. The tons of HAIR. Had to come from somewhere.. The warehouse fulls of shoes. Somebody had to once wear them. Sure, loads of other people died in the camps and in the war itself, but they were not as a class singled out for destruction. Of course, that does not make their deaths any less significant. How is it that it is so easy to disregard all this and more, on the word of a jackass that can't account why there is no cyanide in almost seventy year old, weather beaten bricks? I did research on this for one of my college papers. Even the victims often discounted the reports, until it happened to them. I think it is a far more comfortable belief, than its grizzly alternative.

Happy Birthday to you, happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Exie, happy birthday to you. Best I can do,you'll have to provide the melody.

Yep. It seems a "unique" belief characterizes a group. Something to "circle the wagons" around. Sometimes that can be a good thing, sometimes not. And you make another valid point, in my opinion, Rascal. We don't really like being foolish. I don't think anybody does. But why in the WORLD did ole doc snag in such a good one for us to park our wagons around? We would have been better off if he chose the belief that the world is flat. Good grief- the man had a degree- discounting his nice paper doctorate, he did have a valid master's degree. Makes you wonder.

I thought this kind of fit here, because this was one of the "inner secrets" ascribed by da vey. What gives this kind of belief such an appeal? Is it that people would rather not believe that their fellow human beings are incapable of such horrific acts? Or is it the charismatic presentation by certain people? How is it that people are conviced to debate about numbers- "well, there couldn't have been six million- one or two tops" as if that justifies anything? And it seems that education is not a common denominater. People with VALID college degrees succumb to it. What's the deal?

Well, since PFAL is no longer Online, what else is there to do? :)-->

Song, that's nice. My brother tells me that where he lives, they call it the "New Jersey Salute". Just another kind gesture people give to each other when driving in eight lanes of insanity..

I would only hope that this does not fall on deaf ears, Belle.

Catcup, it wasn't Jo*n's fault. The corpse refused to coorperate. Recalcitrant SOB..

What would satisfy me? Well, lets see you "walk on water", for starters. Let me see the miraculous.

Fifteen pages, holy cow.. Mike. My question STILL lies unanswered. What in the stinkin world is PFAL doing for YOU? If you think you're some kind of modern Moses or something.. I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you. Nobody's gonna lead me from behind, anymore. Let's see you get out front. Let's see it. Get out front, show the masses what it can DO. If it REALLY works, that will sell your product far better than fifteen pages of nonsense.

So this is the short version. "What in God's name is PFAL DOING for YOU?"

I don't know about thousands being "blessed"- unless you equate "blessed" with "eyes glazed over". Honestly. Where are the blessings? What ARE they? "Let's see, I am peaceful now.." Peaceful? About what? Why? I was VERY peaceful BEFORE I even heard of the Vey Misery. Despite the nature of these posts, I still am peaceful. "Well, I speak in tongues.." OK. That's nice. I did too, long BEFORE PFAL. "I really know what love is all about now." Really? I love enough to try to keep my kids and others from going through the same saw mill. Thank God, they are ten times smarter than I was. Love? HOW in God's name, are you MANIFESTING it? What concrete, tangible, effect is it really having? "Well, I have such of an abundance now". Please, let me hear the details. WHAT kind of abundance? Physical abundance? Financial abundance? I have $600.00 in the bank. No hope of retirement. I will very likely work until the day I die. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm still OK. But where is the promise to the tither? I should be ROLLING in dough, but I am STILL in a position where I could be homeless within a matter of weeks, at any one time. Spiritual abundance is wonderful, but let's hear about it. "Spiritual" does not imply "unexplainable". "I'd explain it, but you would not understand". Try me. I'm not stupid, at least any more. Maybe I'm spiritual, and have the mind of Christ, more than you think.

So lets see. I am estimating over twenty years AT MY BEST, and no cookie. I may start my own "organization". "If you will do exactly as I tell you, you will manifest the GREATNESS of the power of God". Doubters beware the wrath of Ham. No results? It is OBVIOUSLY your fault. Maybe its because of YOUR fear. Maybe you did not improve enough on the tithe- try sending me fifteen percent of your income.. That should set me up with a mansion and a radio in every room. But disobey, and may Ham have mercy on your deluded souls...

Catcup, you will never get through on a doctrinal level. The lack of results among thousands of bug eyed, devoted followers of the class, following the message down to the real heart of it, and following every micro-detail is the most convincing argument. One that I have not seen adequately addressed. Not one person has been raised from the dead- not one. And that is the personal experience of many hundreds of grads I had acquaintance with. Not a stinking one. I know Jo*n L*nn tried it once, but the corpse refused to cooperate. Not one "real deal" healing.. I mean one that really shook the community to the foudations or anything. Sure, I prayed for people and they "felt better"- that's nice, but still rather inconsequential. A few have reported something like that, in all fairness it very well could have happened, and a handful were documented- but what happened to the promise that we could be walking Christs and clean out the hospitals, so to speak? Where are the miracles? What a "cute" strategy. Promise the world, promise that "you too can do the works of Jesus Christ (i.e. the miracles, the healings, etc)". Then if anybody asks where all the activity went, they are now bad. Bad, bad, bad. Bad Thomas, "remember the lesson of Thomas", how he was such a rotten scoundrel for even thinking about questioning Jesus' credentials. "We are supposed to believe then see" is then wielded as some form of reproof.. Ptooie. I didn't make the claims. If you can claim you can jump over the moon, by all means, let's see YOU do it first. Don't tell me that I have to do it, I've TRIED. Believe me- I tried, again, and again, and again.. I estimated- AT LEAST seventy times through that stinking class, and I still can't even raise a stinking rat from the dead. And that was me at my BEST. The BEST years of my life, the highest level of "believing" and commitment. The most sincere and dedicated effort to understand and apply the materials. What more do you want out of me? I have no more to give. The only thing I have NOT given, Mike, is my physical life. "Unfortunately", that is NOT available. Its just not worth it. Sorry for such a long post, I hope somebody gets something out of it..

Yep. Hams resist change, too.. But that's how I got my introductory license- it was a no code license- in 1993. I have hundreds of cards from oodles of countries also- haven't counted them all, but probably 120 or so countries. I usually send code with a hand key, but let the computer do the work in contests. Its too much for me to send the same thing over and over for hours on end with a hand key..

A trip to the Holocaust Museum perhaps is a VERY good idea for younger folks- you have to explain away all kinds of stuff then..

As for myself, I bought the lie. I was fooled by the thin veneer of supposed "science", the arguing about numbers actually murdered, the rationalization. It was very chilling indeed, to read what the "other side" had to say.

I think the outrageous claim was made for a reason- it made the product more sellable. "Some people will never be what they really want to be because of cowardice and intimidation" May be closer to the truth, but it just doesn't have the same "ring" to it- "Fear is believing. Believing is a law.."

Typical. If you don't understand it, or agree with it, call it possessed. If you REALLY don't understand it, and it gets under your nerves, call it Seed of da Serpent. Good grief- that IS the legacy of "Atheletes of the Spirit"..

But that would have just been throwing salt in the wounds, heh heh.