penguin

Well, maybe I should clarify. twi ignored things like the 10 commandments and loving your neighbor as yourself. That to me these days is what helps us recognize sin.

I agree that certain other categories that really wont matter in the long run are what twi defined as sin and made us feel like we didnt measure up. (But those ideas and standards are the ones I am eliminating!)

(Ex. Impecably clean home---I go for the "lived in" look now. Doing every single suggestion by leadership. Not writing cheesy thank you notes for boring teachings. If something goes wrong I "missed it somewhere")

I guess you are correct--no "wretch" allowed in wayspeak.

Now we don't need to walk around feeling like worms all the time, but when we sin, we need to call it sin, ask forgiveness, try to change and move on knowing God's grace is BIG and can cover all of our mistakes. twi just tried to block out recognizing our own sins and focused on grace. BOTH need to be in the picture for us to change and grow.

Congrats to the Cafe and to Paw

Big thanks to everyone who has been posting and exposing the errors of twi. I know it has helped bunches of us really "see the light!"

I was thinking about this topic in my car today because the song, "Amazing Grace" came on the radio. I realized an example of twi's sin problem was in that song! Remember for at least 20 years the official sing along the way songbook had the word "soul" instead of "wretch" in the stanza "that saved a wretch like me"

Very interesting, yes?

I was at the library and checked out that myspace site--aaack I could not be on it for very long. Glad they think they are happy, sad that they are being deceived. Remember that I was like that not too long ago and cant believe it. Thankful I am gone!!

Not in real life--though I had a nightmare about being served for a lawsuit by twi a couple of nights ago. Of course I also keep dreaming that I am somehow stuck at a twi meeting and more miserable than ever before. :blink:

I was around--he did "allegedly" say that homos were worthy of death. IMHO I believe he was honestly disappointed we were not living in the OT law time period since the homos would then qualify to be stoned to death. I also wondered what happened to deliverance being available?

OM

Please remember to read the context when quoting me!

I said,

Just like twi minimized Jesus and his role (since twi doctrine makes him absent and we take his place,) I agree that they also minimized the role of the Holy Spirit. Even God our Father was minimized to a genie-like wish/demand granter. It was only after I realized I was missing a relationship with Jesus Christ (because of listening to Christian music on the radio,) that I started feeling those pricks of conscience again.

While in twi we were still very "me" centered.

In this case I was not referring to not reaching out and helping others--because you are right we were always busy doing what twi told us would help people.

My point was that our beliefs put most of the pressure on us to perform:

1. It was our believing that got focused on--not God's trustworthiness

2. We took the place of Jesus Christ so we didn't really have a relationship with him-we were filling in for him instead.

3. We told God what we wanted Him to do and often demanded it--like we knew what was best for us.

Those are just 3 examples of what I meant by me-centered. Of course this was more the 1990's and 2000 something emphasis so maybe you may not have experienced this.

I have been thinking the last several days about what Jesus really went through to make available our forgiveness, redemption etc. When I was involved with twi, it was taboo to have anything with a cross on it (necklace, bible cover, whatever.) The reason given was that people focused too much on Jesus' death and not his resurrection. The point was also made about wearing a electric chair around your neck if Jesus had been killed that way.

I am thinking that eliminating the presence of the cross (tree if some of you prefer) made it easier for us to not think about what he really went through. We maybe were reminded once a year. That would make it easier for us not to think about our sins and shortcomings if we conviently forgot about what our forgiveness really cost. That would make it easier for us to not be as concerned about our behavior, actions, lack of actually helping others, forgiving each other--whatever--if we didnt remember how Jesus gave himself for us. I have realized that remembering what he did helps to motivate me to change and actually follow him better.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

He is risen!!!!

TL

Just like twi minimized Jesus and his role (since twi doctrine makes him absent and we take his place,) I agree that they also minimized the role of the Holy Spirit. Even God our Father was minimized to a genie-like wish/demand granter. It was only after I realized I was missing a relationship with Jesus Christ (because of listening to Christian music on the radio,) that I started feeling those pricks of conscience again.

While in twi we were still very "me" centered. Since leaving one of my favorite statements I have heard from a fellow Christian is that, "Before I was born again, everything (including the Bible) was all about me, but now that I am born again, it is really all about HIM."

My first red flag (which there were plenty of other incidents that should have gotten my attention) was the continued emphasis by upper leadership on numbers, numbers, and more numbers of: people, subscriptions and abundant sharing. It was always us assistants (and coordinators) that were somehow failing when not as many people got way rag subscriptions or the boring sts tapes.

Also,several situations presented itself where long standing believers who were having problems had to figure it out for themselves.

I also remember getting concerned when things shifted from the integrity of the Word to the integrity of the ministry (something lcm started but rosie continued.)

Hi all! In all the years I was in twi, I never consciously "faked" speaking in tongues. Since leaving, one of the things I have realized was that my innie SIT was mechanical and something I felt obligated to do at times.

I have been attending a charismatic church for the last several months--they believe in SIT and many people do (but not in the meetings-the meetings are always decent and in order---but not rigid like twi. FYI they only have prophecy during meetings and its NOTHING like I ever heard in twi!) Anyway, since working through some of the things from twi I have noticed that my SIT has completely changed and now flows easier, has more inflection and comes from praise and thankfulness. (Just have been thinking for the last several months that it was a very interesting observation.)

Ok Here's my two cents...

I cringe to think/type this..but I too swallowed the junk--"Obey first time. If we don't train our children to obey first time then they won't hear God when He tells them to do something."

I have repeated this when disciplining children. I would think it could cause them to resent God since that is why their parents are forcing them to obey immediately.

Congrats Raf!

Johniam,

The more I consider the "grace administration" and the fact that the gospels are conveniently left out of it, the more I think vpw had to teach this in order to justify some of his behaviors. Even in the grace administration we will face the bema--a judgement seat. Even the epistles mention our works having to stand up to the fire. Sure its grace for those of us who truly ask forgiveness and repent--but I am sure we will still have to answer for ourselves. I am not saying we need to make it into heaven/paradise whatever on our own merit-I am just saying we may have some serious talking tos before we enter.

Anyway Zix--great post!! Sorry for a derail

Hang in there amazing grace.

I have been thankful that so far no one in church has freaked when I mentioned that I used to belong to twi. Normally I mention I was in a controlling abusive group before.

Skyrider,

Tell congrats to those 3 newly free families!

Amen to all of those reasons. They were all parts of why I left also.

All is well and good I guess if they just keep it(debt) quiet. The sad part is that they HAVE TO! Someone shouldn't have to feel that they have to hide things--be it starting your own business (but gettting a loan to do it) or even their own opinions! Hence the hypocrisy even of the regular innie since you have to appear to have the perfect twi sanctioned life with a perfectly renewed to twi doctrine mind.

So far we have had nothing but good things happen since we left!! The release of pressure was amazing! And yes it was scary to take the final plunge and actually say "See Ya!!" I am so glad I did it. I am almost a completely different person --and it has been less than a year since I left. Our Heavenly Father is so much bigger than twi made Him out to be and He is definitely not confined to only being concerned about twi's "faithful"

Welcome to true freedom!

When I left, I had to realize that it was okay to NOT be busy doing something. I had to slow down and take care of me and my family for a while. It was also SOO strange not having someone to tell me what to do, what to study etc. I am still adjusting! I have realized how much I had shut God's still small voice out and I am learning to listen to Him again.

What blows me away is how me and so many others just sat there while things like this were said about people who had left twi or had something tragic happen to them. I just sat there and went "uh huh" in my head. It also shows how calloused most of us were while in twi--to not have sympathy or compassion for others and their families. The focus was always, "Where did they blow it?" (Even when an active corpse I knew died unexpectedly.)

What I have heard is that even the innies are saying loyboy had one thing right. He could hold your interest while he was teaching! Seems like the 3 teaching the video class are stiff and stuck to their chair. That would go along with the other more recent class with the syrupy sweet C**lters teaching.

Oldies very funny!

Excie I will keep you in my prayers!! We have slightly similar situations and it has been interesting.

Sorry Dave and jaylawt--I have no info on Stan Tinsley. Twi never lets innies know when leader&$*# defects and I am out of the loop now anyway.

I did good at guessing the elite eight-got 7 of 8----but got totally screwed up with final four! So much for a few extra bucks! Oh well. At least most of the games have been exciting