TheInvisibleDan

Thank goodness. For awhile there I thought I might have been totally deaf.

Which raises another interesting question: did the Way copyright VPW's Sunday service tapes (or any other number of teaching tapes by him)?

I think it's interesting to discuss our weird beliefs.

Those which we believed in the past.

And those which we entertain in the present.

To contemplate the hidden "tWILIGHT zONEs"

of our hearts.

(lol).

Danny

DMiller,

Ditto on the Bullinger "How to Enjoy..." - though I may not always agree with his interpretations of what he thought to see, he nonetheless produced some very interesting observations along the way. His system is remarkable to me in that it "resurrects" the spirit of Marcion. In so many respects, Bullinger's view of Paul and his emphasis upon the "newness" of his revelation, is identical to Marcion's view.

Check out the works of Clarence Larkin for some more "eye openers" to Wierwille's theological diet. This guy did a knock out job with his illustrations and dispensational charts.

May all the great bells ring for Belle in national celebration.

Happy Belated Birthday, Belle.

Danny

Twinky,

I had a similar question about 3 years ago in regard to JCNG.

The old thread can be viewed here,

which was a very interesting discussion.

I recall Wordwolf began a thread on Wierwille's plagiarism behind ATDAN?

But I don't know about JCOP.

I'm not saying I don't believe in God. I just have lots of questions and really no satisfactory answers.

It seems as though Christianity is sold as some sort of panacea, a cure all for anything and everything that ails you. If you have financial problems, become a christian; you have marital problems, become a christian; you have some terrible disease, become a christian; you have no direction in life, become a christian. It seems like christianity is sold as the answer to whatever ails you, and I think it's a lie.

I think you may be right.

I think Christianity sucks as a K-Tel Swiss Pocket Fisherman.

Particularly if the pursuit remains one of "what God can do for us".

I prefer to think the sayings of Christ as practical precepts that are still able to inspire us toward exercising real concern for one another, how we might better treat one another, and even think of one another.

Of fellow human beings. In the here and now.

If that was the only thing to come out of Christianity, that would be sufficient for me.

How I relate to each person I come into contact with throughout the day.

Did I treat that person well, good, fair, and with respect? Did I devote my energy toward helping

them find what they needed? Did I do all I could to remedy a situation?

Did my presence prove beneficial today in that particular spot on this weird planet?

I work in a customer service job, can you tell?

:)

Danny

These "Tales of Woe and Legalism" are scary stories indeed!

Just in time for Halloween.

All the more glad I left in 1987.

Danny, I'd love to see a picture of what you'd like to find in your cross. :)

Hi Belle,

I'm leaning along these lines:

One offered by Alaska Jewelry has an interesting, rough texture.

While the one offered by African Gold has a certain, striking elegance to it.

I think I may go with the second one.

Greetings TempleLady: I hadn't considered a wooden anchor cross. But it would be a fantastic idea for building a large one to hang on a wall (perhaps in my refurbished garage-studio-Fortress-of-Solitude), especially with the addition of some brass or gold plating to cover the surface.

Bramble :

The pre Nazi swastika was a positive image, but now the symbolism is so clouded. I have a necklace called a Lauburu, which is like a solar cross but more rounded on the end with a celtic knot look. I have quite few necklaces with symbols that mean something to me but don't freak out the public. I find they help me keep something I want to think about in mind...images work well for me.

This appears quite true. While reviewing a Christian Symbols site, I came across a link to this article

Sir Guess, Curiosity, Precision, and Kindness are very good guides.

Danny

It is interesting that the earliest known variant for the spelling of "Christ" in circulation among

the earliest Christians (reflected in ancient inscriptions and various manuscripts) was "Krestus",

meaning the Kind One, the Benevolent One.

Jesus was known primarily through "kindness", so much so that it became the very term attached to Him,

prior to the "Christ" (messianic) stuff which took hold.

Danny

I'm shopping for a cross.

After all these 40-some-odd years, I never owned one.

Though there was that plastic, green glow-in-the-dark cross which hung

in one of the bedrooms at my parents' house.

No, I'm just taking my time, trying to find just the right one.

Or something close which appeals to my taste, that strikes the inner chord.

For awhile I contemplated the Egyptian ankhs, their cross being the symbol of life.

It's very cool looking, a striking symbol.

But the cross I really want is a variant of the Anchor cross as depicted on

the walls of the catacombs beneath Rome.

The modern versions of this symbol as featured on Ebay I personally find atrocious.

Their shape lacks the quiet dignity of the original symbol.

It's interesting shopping for symbols of faith.

The dove symbol never really did much for me.

Danny

Must......resist...brain....being - nngggh....stolen! Led away...to....to.....?!

Made it. Whew! Close call.

Here Socks, have a cup of joe....there ya go...

I was really amused by the two Mormon missionaries which visited me about 3-4 years ago.

One did the narration, while the other flipped an illustration book featuring Joseph Smith

in a flannel shirt, resembling Russ Tamblyn from "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers".

It was funny in a cool way.

It was like watching a primitive attempt at multi-media "witnessing", though I might add,

a bit more creative than many of my own attempts at such through the Way.

That sort of "show 'n tell" witnessing can be taken a step further in the 21st century.

One person can carry and open a laptop to show a mini-movie while the other

can serve popcorn and lemonade.

The movies can be of various dramatizations from the Book of Mormon featuring

Jesus' appearance to the ancient indians 'n stuff.

If it's a mini-series, more people might be inclined to invite missionaries over to their

house on a weekly basis if only to catch the next installment.

With the finale reserved for the Temple.

It's a helluva witnessing program. By God, some religion should pick up on this (lol).

Danny

Those "Osmond Brothers" sure had straight teeth.

My older sister pinned up posters from "Sixteen" magazine

back in the 70s.

There, staring back at me if perchance I wandered into her room -

- five sets of the biggest, whitest, straightest teeth one ever did see.

I knew a Mormon in school who told me one day that Mormons didn't drink coffee!

(is this true?)

:blink:

God forbid! COFFEE FORBIDDEN?

Let it not be so...let it not...be so....

Danny

It seems a weird compulsion with ex-way groups:

X-Leader-1: Hey man, too the bad the old group broke up.

X-Leader_2: Any chance we'll be getting back together someday?

X-Leader_3: No way man.

X-Leader-7: Hey, I know! Let's start a new band!

X-Leader_4: get outta here? What are we going to do without our old singer?

X-Leader_2: Earle over there can carry a tune!

X-Leader_3: And we still got the original drummer.

X-Leader_4: Yeah but, we'll get sued if we sing the old songs!!!

( momentary silence)

X-Leader_7: Hey! I know! We can write new songs that sound kind of like the old ones!

X-Leader_2: Wow. Great idea.

(Next month in the studio)

X-Leader-4: Okay, "Wierwille Died for my Sins", take six...

X-Leader-9 (the drummer): thump-thump-thump!

X-Leader-2 playing milk carton-rubber-band thing: plunkity-plunk-plunk-plunk!

X-Leader Xylophonist: klinkity-klinkity-klink!

X-Leader Tambourine Player: shakity-shakity-shake!

X-Leader guitarist: Whockity,Whockity- wha-wha- waka-waka.

X-Leader Earle: "Out in Ohio, a man, -yeah! Word of God, yeah-yeah-yeah!

(later, fans in the mosh pit at one of their concerts):

Fan1: Wow! sounds just like the old stuff!

Fan2: Feel that old magic!

Fan3: whoo-hoo!

Satan and the OT deity's intercourse at the beginning of the Book of Job is pretty strange.

God: Hey Satan, long time no see. what have u been up to?

Satan: Eh, running all over the place 'n stuff...

God: Hey! Check out Job over there. Isn't he one heck of a righteous fellow?

Satan: Ha! Gimme a break - that gimp? I'll bet you over a couple shots of Soma

that after a few days with me, he'll turn on you and bite you on the a$$!!!

God: GAW-FAW!!! (slapping thunderous thighs, wiping out remote coastal villages in the Orient in the process)

You're on!

I got to pick up a copy of Jung's Letter to Job sometime soon.

In one case they actually went into the back bed room so that Wayne and John could listen in on the phone as the teaching went on! The end result is a bunch of letters going out to the local fellowships saying that such and such is not longer with CFF.

If this particular case of eavesdropping still holds true, why didn't they simply inquire of this person directly?

What's with this "sneaking-around" baloney? So the person teaches weird stuff that doesn't agree with their weird stuff. They should have just went out for a cup of coffee together someplace, and respectly discuss their weird stuff together. You know, act like Christians.

Danny

Buck and Stephanie,

I'm very sorry to hear about Jimmy's passing. I hope is your family is receiving much comfort, strength and support during this difficult time.

Danny

Thank you. That looks like a very fascinating documentary.

Danny

Howard's probably still fumbling with his walky-talky, wondering why none of his old friends

respond from other side anymore. Rattling yesterday's lunch down his pant leg.

Howard's brain is gone. It's gotta be....

I remember Howard honoring our twig with his presence at a hotel room in Boston.

No, it wasn't that sort of thing.

Our local twig was having a small meeting at a hotel room during some weekend-long Way function.

"Special guest" Howard was coming to teach, as a favor to the twig leader "Paul", who bragged on earlier

about acquiring from Howard the enlightenment of how to properly use a shovel.

Howard taught something containing some financial nugget of course. Can't remember anything in particular now. Other than the fact that he appeared distracted the whole time. Kept fiddling with his walky-talky on his belt. Strangest thing I ever did see, yuh.

Danny

"It has also become clear that Isaiah's metaphor of the fallen "Day Star" (Isa. 14.12-15) is to be located in the Ugaritic myth of the fallen astral deities, notably Athtar, who presumed to usurp the throne of Baal; the persistence of this theme is seen in the later development of traditions about Satan (Luke 10.18)."

-p.786, entry on "Ugaritic", The Oxford Companion to the Bible.

"The myth of fallen angels, prominent in later Jewish and Christian theology, does not appear in the Old Testament, though when it arose it could attach itself to Is. 14:12, a reflection of a Canaanite myth that may have actually been the prototype of the Jewish idea." ( p.121, An Outline of Biblical Theology, M. Burrows).

"The third way in which the creation was thought of by the Hebrews and other peoples was the myth of the primeval conflict between God and the dragon of chaos. While known from Babylonian and Canaanite sources, this myth is only echoed in the Old Testament by occasional literary allusions. The Hebrew word for abyss, tehom, corresponds etymologically to the Babylonian name of the primeval monster, Tiamat, but in this case the original ideas has entirely disappeared. Not so with Rahab [Ps. 89:10; Is. 51:9] and Leviathan [Ps.74:14; Isa.27:1]. Apparently the attitude of the later Old Testament writers to this myth was like that of Christian poets to pagan mythology." (ibid, p.117).

Then the writer follows this up shortly afterward (2 Peter 2:1ff) with fearmongering against "false prophets" and anyone speaking "damnable heresies" (= other Christian movements which taught any ideas at odds with those of the writer and his church); much emphasis on judgement and destruction (vs. the emphasis of ideas by other Christian and gnostic movements). The letter appears to me more a reconfiguration, a recasting of Pauline themes - going out his way to add the statement about things in Paul's epistles "hard to be understood" (3:16), "things which the untaught and unestablished twist (= Marcionites, gnostics, other Christian movements)."as other scriptures, to their own destruction".

2nd Peter isn't categorized among "the Catholic epistles" for nought, a work seemingly contrived for touting the authority of one canon of scriptures against those of other competing movements at the time.

Danny

Ezekiel 28:12-17

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him,

'Thus says the Lord GOD,

"You had the seal of perfection,

Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13"You were in Eden, the garden of God;

Every precious stone was your covering:

The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;

The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;

The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;

And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,

Was in you.

On the day that you were created

They were prepared.

14"You were the anointed cherub who covers,

And I placed you there

You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

15"You were blameless in your ways

From the day you were created

Until unrighteousness was found in you.

16"By the abundance of your trade

You were internally filled with violence,

And you sinned;

Therefore I have cast you as profane

From the mountain of God.

And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the stones of fire.

17"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;

You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor

I cast you to the ground;

I put you before kings,

That they may see you.'"

Someone may of course say "this says it's about the king of Tyre. Any other possibility is precluded."

Well, it's not quite that simple.

This supposed "man" has some even MORE peculiar properties.

He was in EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD.

Only 2 humans were said to have been there, and they died.

Might this not be a description of someone who is not human?

He "walked in the midst of the stones of fire."

This might mean magma or lava, or might not. Either way, strange

for a human, no matter what it means.

Finally, he's called a "cherub."(Twice.) Maybe I missed something, but I thought the

only "cherubs" are either angels or stylistic depictions OF angels.

Is this all about the literal King of Tyre? You make up your own mind;

I think it's clear there's more to this account than just a message to an overproud king.

(Ok, that's not everyting, but that's a beginning.)

You've raised some very valid points, WW, for reconsidering the angelic connection to the figure of the king of Tyre.

However, what I also find interesting when rereading this section now, if supposing this figure is Lucifer or Satan, is how little this depiction actually seems to support the old "gap" chronology promoted by Wierwille,

that Satan's fall had occurred somewhere between Gen.1:1 and 1:2, if indeed, Satan's glory, beauty and perfection was obvious "in EDEN, the GARDEN OF GOD".

Danny

The "Johnny-come-lateliness" nature of these Petrine "epistles" may provide one great reason for comfort.

It's okay apocrypha.