TheInvisibleDan

I would prefer that you break it down for me. My "blinders" may still be on. :)

As Jeaniam broke it down in her original post-

1).And every man that hath this hope in him (in his heart) purifieth himself, ...

2). And every man that hath this hope in Him (in Christ) purifieth himself, ...

It's a question of how a translator interprets "in him".

Run that by me again. How are the two translations saying two different things?

Look again at the pronouns, and the way different versions have rendered this.

I was a W.O.W. Ambassador in Charlotte, NC '82-83.

On the trip down to NC, God blessed me with a hernia, to add to my wooden leg.

Each day I would wake up at 3:30 AM, to hobble two miles to my janitorial job at "Bojangles"

through rain, sleet or snow.

Oh yeah, along the way I "spoke-in-tongues" alright, and perhaps a little higher

than usual with my family valuables being crushed by my own intestinal fortitude.

Thank God there was a clubhouse at the apartment complex where I lived with plenty of cheap

beer to take the edge off.

I got to borrow Doc Watson's 12 string Guild for a few months. That was kind of miraculous, I guess.

That was a sweet instrument.

Wish I had the 200 bucks to buy it from him at the end of the year. Damn.

That's an interesting point, another spot. It seems there are two ways to read verse 3, and neither one is necessarily inaccurate.

1). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in his heart) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'.

2). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in Christ) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'.

Does anyone have an opinion (or am I just being nitpicky)?

You are absolutely right -

And everyone who has this expectation purifies himself, as he is pure. (Schonfield)

And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure (Concordant Literal NT)

That's interesting.

Can I look this up anywhere you have handy? (I like to corroborate this stuff.)

It looks like there's suspicion on BOTH of the only 2 mentions of "prayer and fasting"

in the Bible.

(The other may simply say "prayer".)

Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece et Latine , 27th edition, 1984, 1997, Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft;

p.48 (Greek text), p.49 (Latin text).

In the case of Matt.17:21, it's left out in both the Greek and Latin critical texts, and consequently popular

English translations omit it (RSV, NIV) as well as the not-so-popular ( New World Translation, Concordant, Schonfield

'Original NT').

Danny

Many mss. omit altogether this line of Matt.17:21, "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

1 John 3: 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

How often do you think about The Hope? And what do you think it means in verse three when it says we are purified even as he is pure?

Interesting. Looking at this passage now, it seems like it may be an exhortation toward becoming something along the lines of an ascetic

(be it literally or figuratively, internally)

Those having this hope - (he) "purifies himself" - in contrast to those in the following passages "doing lawlessness"

and "sinning". All is dependant upon "remaining" in him - "doing" righteousness and loving their brother, "Keeping His precepts

and doing what is pleasing in His sight".

Similarly

"The Sons of this Eon marry. But those whom the God of the other Age has deemed worthy to take part in the resurrection

from the dead neither marry or are given in marriage. For they shall no longer die. For they are equal to the angels and are the sons of God,

being sons of the resurrection." (Luke/Marcion 20:34-36).

The thought of the Primal Man hatching from an egg kind of amuses me at the moment.

I'm aware of some myths to that effect.

This thread is about four months cold, but I hope you don't mind if I open it up again. I enjoyed reading it, especially the interaction of Danny and T-Bone.

1Cr 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

I think these passages from the Pauline Epistles "alludes" to "this rather significant mind-blowing conversion experience."

The question in my mind though is - which conversion-version?

Danny

Bingo, AnotherDan

"I am a hundred and twenty-two years old, and I am not aware of having committed a sin unto death. I have not had intercourse with any woman other

than my wife, nor was I promiscuous by lustful look. I did not drink wine to the point of losing self-control. I was not passionately eager for any

desirable possession of my neighbor. There was no deceit in my heart, no lie passed though my lips. I joined in lamentation with every oppressed human being, and shared my bread with the poor..."

-Testament of Issachar 7:1-5, from Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs (circ. 2nd Century B.C.).

"And there is no sin greater on earth than fornication, which they commit on earth, for Israel is a nation holy unto God..."

-Jubilees 33:18

"Guard thyself, do not go on their paths to step into their footprints and do not commit the error of death before the most high God, lest He hide His face from thee,

and return thee unto the hands of thy transgression and root thee out of the land, and thy seed from under heaven, and they name be destroyed and thy seed from

all the earth"

-Jubilees 21:19

Some comments:

The "sin unto death" and "not unto death" is another issue, but I'd surely like comments on that, too.

My take on that, for what it's worth.

I don't think there's any particular mystical or mysterious meaning behind the phrase. I encountered it elsewhere

a few years ago in one the so-called "pseudepigraphical" writings ( Testament of the 12 Patriarchs, if I recall

correctly).

I think it may simply refer to any deed or practice or habit that can lead one to an early grave.

Danny

Of course now the question becomes, "What brand would Jesus smoke?"

Camels.

Oh yeah - but the movie that scared me most was "The Fly". Especially the end, with the fly with the guy's head, caught

in the web, screamin in a high pitch voice, "Help me....help me...."

Creeped me out!

Other favorites were "Attack of the Killer Shrews", "The Tingler", "Terror from the Year 5000!" and "The Giant Claw".

While Creature Features on the other channel played the old 40s Universal monster flicks and all their sequels

(Frankenstein, Dracula, Wolfman, the Mummy).

I have no clue as to what sign is for what month, but docvic was born Dec. 31, 1916.

If you want to do a chart -- there's your starting point. :)

Well he shares the same birthday (though different years) with Simon Wiesenthal (oh the irony), Anthony Hopkins ("Hannibal!"),

Ben Kingsley (the "Ghandi" he wanted to be) and Tim Matheson (the "writer" he never was).

But we'll still need his time of birth and place of birth for that star chart.

This information is so new, exciting and informative...there has to be some answers to these questions somewhere?

Like his astrology charts, when did his aquarius moon arise during the month of Ramadan? You know, lets do his “chart”!

You know, that would be a funny experiment.

PM me his date of birth, time of birth, and place of birth, and I'll feed all that into one of my wife's astrological programs.

Very interesting, Sunesis.

A few times I've wished that Vp really had been even half the man he claimed to be.

"...if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet...."

Ezekiel 14:9

Actually, the original fairy tales before Disney's handling are far more Grimm.

Growing up in my family, I didn't see any "color" TV till somewhere in the mid 70s.

We were able to receive quite a few NY stations through means of an antenna mounted

off the roof and hanging outside my window (my brother and I had a small B&W in our room).

All those late night movies (esp. the ones shown on "Creature Feature" and "Chiller Theatre" on

Friday and Saturday nights) took their toll on my fragile little mind.

.....but he's still required to CITE SOURCES on those, Dan-

both for Bullinger AND for vpw, where each is supposedly the source.

Agreed - it would have been most honest and proper to have done so.

But then again, I suppose a wannabee mog wouldn't want to come off as being too

"scholarly" or "intellectual".

Gotta remain as vague with sources as to preserve the MOG mystique.

Interesting post, I've also been interested in the subject of the Nephilim.

I've listened to some teachings by Chuck Missler on the Nephilim.

I ran across this quote in Appendix 25 (on Nephilim) of Bullinger's Bible:

"Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks."

I need to pick up a copy of Graves "Greek Mythology" at some point. When I read it a few years I was fascinated with how Graves matched up certain biblical characters and stories to the characters and stories of Greek Myths, e.g., equating Prometheus' fatty offering to Zeus to Abraham's offering of the stag in place of his son Isaac. The Titans which revolted against Zeus becoming imprisoned in chains in the underworld, = the imprisoned spirits in chains of the Catholic epistles.

Danny

What do you think? Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?

If Geer was ever pressed with the charge of piracy, I imagine all he would need do is counter with the claim that the majority of material in his class was actually derived from Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" which is safely in the public domain.

Any supposed, unique contributions by Wierwille may be extremely minor by comparison. So few as to arguably fall within the perimeters of "fair use".

Here's a survey you can copy and paste into your reply with your own answers. Elaborate on your answers if you like. You can also come back and write a full explanation of your position for any particular item. (Heck, you can do whatever you like!)

T = true F = false U = unsure

Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. U

Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. F

The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. U

The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. U

The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. Most certainly F

Paul wrote Hebrews. Most certainly F

Moses wrote Genesis. F

David wrote the 23rd Psalm. U

Paul's doctrine of "by faith alone" contradicts James' doctrine, as recorded in the Book of James. U though at one time I thought T.

Four were crucified with Jesus. U

I speak in tongues in my private prayer life. F

God loves homosexuals. F if the interpolations in Romans are to be believed.

Homosexuality is not a sin. U

God does not hate. T if "God is love".

1 Cor. 12 says that all nine "manifestations" of the spirit are the privilege of everyone who has been "born again" by confessing Jesus as their lord, and believing God raised him from the dead. (When combined with Romans 10:9 and other scriptures.) U

The prayer of a believer can move God to do something He would not otherwise have done. U

Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW’s are perversions of Christianity. U

Some of Jesus’ teaching is impossible to carry out. U.

"Sin consciousness" is not in the believer’s self-interest. F

The canon is closed. Another authentic letter of Paul will never surface. U

There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. U

Requiring narrative answers (short or long):

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean?

I think everything suggested in the context concerning "Spirit", salvation and entering into the Kingdom.

Possibly with water baptism entailed as part of the process or initiation.

What are your thoughts on the Fourth commandment (not to work on the sabbath)?

Haven't really given this much consideration, though I do enjoy having the weekends off from work to spend with my family.

Elena is still around but not doing seminars. She id not involved with TWI . She is doing well. I won't give any specifics on anyone on the internet.

Sorry...is

Understandable. Glad to know she's doing well. I met her briefly at my first ROA back in '78.

Thanks Ariel.

Danny