shortfuse

1 hour ago, waysider said:

How does leadership decide who's going to sit at the *"kids' table"?

 

*(Fellowship with lesser credentialed leader)

Honestly, I think it's geographical.  If there is no one in an area that can do a "real" fellowship, then someone will do a Bible Study.

I honestly wonder if there will be an installation.  I bet they are more likely to do it privately, and then just trot him out as the new president.  I don't expect him to be any more out front than Rosalie.  

yeah, awesome right?  I'm not sure how new this is, I think at least a year old.  It does all boil down to a BOD that is clueless and unable to admit they are wrong.  We had something similar about 10 years ago when we were pressured to make smaller fellowship sizes and more fellowships.  It was supposed to improve retention by giving people more individualized attention. With the no-debt policy ("we don't have a debt policy, we have a teaching from God's Word, and requirements to participate in certain programs..." yeah, yeah, shut up, it's a policy), we had not enough fellowship coordinator candidates to meet the new "more, smaller groups" mandate.  This led to the invention in some areas of the "Fellowship Contact", a person who was the de facto fellowship coordinator but without the title.  The branch coordinator was supposed to be the real coordinator, giving them extra attention, because they didn't have a real coordinator.  I always hated that and treated them like the rest of the hfc's.  Back then I still thought it would work itself out - they would see the problem and fix it.  I was wrong of course.

Recently, I was talking to my mom about this Bible Study/Fellowship distinction.  She told me one of them - I think the Bible Study - was supposed to be more outreach focused while the other was more in-depth in the Word.  I might be flipping it, but it seemed silly.  "Oh, so you guys aren't focused on outreach now?"  "No, no, we still do outreach."  "Well, what's the distinction?  What do they do that you don't do, and visa versa?"  Never really got anywhere on that.   They are still trying really hard to figure out how to "move the Word".  It must be discouraging and confusing to believe the Word IS over the World, and this here now is what prevailing looks like.  Nobody wants what they are peddling.  

I don't think he will be a serial sexual predator or publicly berate and humiliate people like VPW and LCM did.

But I don't think continued involvement in the Way is harmless to anyone. I guess one thing I'm thinking of is financially.  I have family who continue to rent at all costs, give more than tithes to twi and save almost nothing for retirement,  That said, it may just be too late for them.  Maybe a changed way wouldn't matter for them anyway.
 

2 hours ago, skyrider said:

All the best to you, Jean-Yves.  Just know that "the power of that office" is not of any significance in the sight of God......UNLESS you use it for good, to unburden and heal the brokenhearted and those [still] in captivity.  [Luke 4:18]

THIS!

Do it, Jean-Yves.  

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

Is Jean-Yves that bad?  

This is a nostalgia ministry.  The followers want their nostalgia.  Isn't taking the nostalgia away a source of suffering for them?  A guy like Jean-Yves is could just be giving them their comfort for their remaining days.

VPW caused followers to leave by dying.

LCM caused followers to leave by yelling.

Rosie caused followers to leave by stone-walling.

What is the worst Jean-Yves going could do?  Cause people to leave by out-living them?

I get what you are saying, but calling it a nostalgia ministry diminishes the on going harm to those still involved. Is he that bad?  Well,if he changes nothing, that would be bad.  I don't think he would have received the appointment if he gave any inclination he intended to change anything.

7 hours ago, skyrider said:

Besides the deception, coercion, and the compulsion to "keep up appearances with our peers".......we just were NOT teenagers anymore.  With spouses and kids in tow, and bills to pay, and growing responsibilities.......we outgrew the "go WOW, now" hype. 

Man, I wish the adults in my life had felt that way.  Doubled down instead.

11 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

Those Lally idiots were sociopathic Nazis. She was in the 4th corpse. From NY somewhere. He was 8th corpse, and really quite a knuckledragger imo. They stayed until 2000! Were big shots in the naked empire, and gleeful leaders of the inquisition years, Two very stupid and self-serving creatures who hurt many and were despised by many more.

Somehow I still feel some empathy towards them and others like them.  I think they were just as trapped and victimized by TWI. When they left, they vanished overnight, just took off.  That's what someone who is scared does, and I can understand it. (Sometimes I wish I had done similarly instead of giving half a year's notice with placement interviews and riding out all the crap they dished out.)  I'm not giving them a pass for bad behavior, but I also acknowledge how abusers were often first the abused.  

Except the satire pretty much does itself.  It's not even sporting.  

Nonetheless, bring on the satire.

Was visiting family and just saw the posters up close.  It's bad, guys.   Almost so bad it's good.  Maybe next year.

I am amused by the prominent copyright marks they put on them.  Who honestly would steal this stuff?

2 hours ago, Raf said:

Ok, the potential for this to get political is ... there. So let's not.

My vote is with John "The Way International? What's that?" Rupp.

You know come to think of it, it really doesn't matter does it?  Rosie has not been much of a public figure.  She might well replace herself with someone even less interesting.  The leader of the Way is meant to be uninteresting these days.  They are meant to be behind the scenes.  It might be someone we have never heard of and which most wayfers don't even know or wouldn't expect.  

If you think about it, the Way is no longer a personality cult.  It definitely was with both VPW and LCM.  It has morphed into something else.  Still a cult, but after a different manner.  

I nominate Greg Sch@ffer from Way Productions.  He has worked pretty closely with Rosie.  A nice guy too, but not someone who will develop a personality cult.  Raf could be right too.

4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

A reformer has to be someone who thinks they understand TWI better than current leadership.  . . . I would think.

If VPW was lying, (which I believe he was . . . not saying that I was there) . . . how is a reformer even possible?

Hence leaderships fear of their own children . . . acting out on the lies they fed them.

 

 

Yeah, I agree there is a misguided sentiment that the reform needed is a return to an idealized era they were not a part of.  But some of my generation too thought if we just quietly waited things out and didn't cause too many ripples we would get our chance to lead and then things would be different.  Most of us came to our senses and left.

Some of the folks I know have been waiting years for the chance to reform the way, thinking that opportunity would come if they just outlasted Rosie.  I guess time will tell, but I think she has been setting structures in place to preserve her influence.  She's not going to knowingly put a reformer at the helm of the way.

Dear Believing Household of The Way:

God bless you exceedingly abundantly above all we can ask or think, in the name of that name above all names, our living Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

On behalf of the Board of Directors of The Way International, it's my privilege to announce the theme for 2016-2017 ministry year. During the coming year, our focus, our passion, our heart, as we go to fellowship, and live the word in our personal heart life, and expand with the Word in our prevailing sphere of influence will be...are you ready?  Overcoming the World by Your Believing!  Isn't that a wonderful blessing? 

Would you like to see the new theme poster?  Let me tell you, it's a blessing.  Our Children’s Fellowships have contributed the drawings depicting our theme. Aren't our kids great artists? If you're wondering how they were able to keep our theme top secret until anniversary, you might be forgetting about wooden spoons. But these posters will be a prevailing blessing, reminding you to believe, standing faithful and steadfast in the apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread from house to house and speaking in tongues much to bring the promises of God's Word to pass in this crooked and perverse world.  Buy one for each room of your house, now in four languages - English, Spanish, French and now a fourth poster, we're not sure but it's either a tongue of men or angels. Lo Shanda, that's a good poster! There are of course also smaller versions of the poster for your car and cubicle at work, and you can get these same children's drawings on postcards and stationary perfect for sending bless notes, as well as “thank you” notes to our wonderful Board of Directors for their prevailing stand in the household overcoming the world by their *tupos* believing example.

Standing faithfully in the Household of The Way (unlike some people) and pressing towards the mark like the Athletes of the Spirit (the good ones, without the fringe) in the competition of life overcoming and prevailing in this world with you,

The Way
(Can't use real name, because The Internet)

P.S.  Just kidding, it’s me, Rico.

P.P.S. Follow us on Twitter!

Wow, interesting.  The Westboro folks were picketing at The Way in the 70's or was there some other ROA?  On what grounds were they protesting?

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

I like the article and the more I think about it the more TWI looks like a Westboro-Baptist-church-like hate group, with attributed quotes.  

 

The year that the Craiggers cancelled the W.O.W. program during the Rock of Ages he sited spiritual contamination from closeted homosexuals.  He also did a "teaching" from the main stage that year where he paraded out people (the choir if I remember right) holding signs with anti-gay slogans, and expounded on each of them.  I think it pre-dates the Westboro Baptists, but very much of the same hostility.  

3 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

Very interesting topic. Thanks Bolshevik!

i never bought vic's anecdotal yet "god breathed" evidence of any of the manifestations. Why? Because I "grew up in da Woid" under a couple of Steves who had it goin' on with Jesus Christ ! And, those Steves were Perez and Heefner, and, imho, they were both and each the "real deal" along with their spouses, Laurie P., and Sandi H.

  And, under THEIR genuine "ministries", I was won to Christ and became a dedicated and bold disciple. Piffle was merely a class....a biblical proof that the Word was right and righteous! The real movement of God, through Christ, via holy spirit was what was happening every night in fellowships around NYC and LI. There was no stoopeed, hokey dictor paul contaminating the revival by Christ that was crashing through the northeast and every other part of the 1970 USA.  That WAS God and The Boss, JC, doing their thing among the idealistic hippies of the late 60s. DPW lucked out enough to catch that wave with a BG-Bullinger board and a load of .... that was perfect for his day and time and hour....LOL! What an absolute fraud!

Even in the first AC I took, in Rye, NY in March, 1972, I never bought the John Noble  anti-Beatles BS, or the "all psychiatry was born in a seance" garbage. I knew better, both intellectually and experientially, thanks to the Perezes, and the Heefners, along with my medical and nursing training. Carrying this internal conflict and cognitive dissonance was for me, the single most personal betrayal of self I ever committed in my life. I thankfully have both made amends to those I have hurt, and repented before the Lord Jesus Christ and those whom I have harmed, asking, and receiving their forgiveness......for which I am unspeakably thankful and duly responsible. 

A very interesting part of your bio I was unfamiliar with.  Thank you for sharing it.

It is my understanding that LCM, in his righteous dance-off against the invisible, ripped the veil top to bottom. He made no distinction between jew and gentile, corps and non-corps, human beings and slime molds.

Great concluding summary statement, bro.

Familiar Spirits.

The Adversary is copying LCM, again.

First Athletes of the Spirit and now this? Hast thou no shame, Satan?

We need to build bombs. MORE bombs. BIGGER bombs. Bunch of dumb-dumb ignoramuses. It's THE WORD

Ah, LCM, he gave an inner voice to those who had none.

At least I still have Trump.

Basically an old-fashioned Facebook News-Feed.

Yeah. Pretty much. I read these and I'm just so over this guy. I miss the LCM letters to the Corps. He was WAY crazier.

Each one of these letters could be a thread of its own.

Spring 1982.

Isn't this whole letter VPW saying if you're not CORPS, you ain't worth a damn? This is an attitude that was always present, but rarely articulated, in TWI. People will deny it, but here it is?

I guess so. To me it just reads like a bunch of platitudes strung together with some guilt motivation sprinkled in.

Does all cancer have "life of it's own" or life in and of itself?

(I seem to recall it being said/taught in TWI that not all did.)

What does it even mean to have life in itself? Quite frankly, I don't know.

Maybe somebody that does know can (try to) explain it.

I don't know where the "life of it's own" test came from. I don't see it in the Bible. I don't think you can prove the "all life is spirit" claim, upon which this is based.

As I see it, there's significant differences between cancer being a devil spirit, all cancer being caused by a devil spirit, and some cancer possibly being the result of devil spirits.

When Jesus Christ healed the leapers, or the blind man in John 9:1ff (as well as others)... were devil spirits cast out? It doesn't say that.

But when he healed dumb and blind men in other instances (Matt. 9:32; 12:22), they plainly were.

So, might cancer somehow be caused by a devil spirit?

In some instances, I suppose it might.

Would that axiomatically mean that it always is?

Not necessarily.

Minus five points for using the word "axiomatically." That went out with PFAL. Sorry.

How many physical issues might this apply to? Not too many.

I'd think it not entirely impossible for nearly any or all of them, maybe even including a headache.

How could one even begin to prove such a thing? "Revelation" right? Sure, any thing is possible, that's about as far as we can go.

(far, far, FAR too much focus on and talk about devil spirits in TWI. Most of it of little or no value...)

It had tons of value to Wierwille. It gave him the appearance of being a man of great spiritual insight. It gave followers a sense that they were privy to some insider knowledge, causing them to value Wierwille and his ministry more. It lead to an unhealthy fixation that devil spirits were around every corner (perhaps even causing this headache I have right now) which in my view put people in a fearful and compliant state of mind. Don't disagree with The Way or you could be opening yourself to spirit possession.

I agree little or no value to the individual (I think this is what you meant), but plenty of value those who would exercise control.

In other words, how/where spirit can and/or does operate ought to be considered.

Can or does it operate in a lump of flesh, aside from the mind?

(Personally, I'm inclined to think not. Rather difficult to prove, though.)

Yes, some interesting distinctions are born of attributing symptoms to devil spirits. Someone is said to be "possessed of" such and such spirit. Another is "under the influence of" a devil spirit (this was some how not quite as bad, but still a problem). Later, I remember when Don Wierwille died of cancer, the Craiggers wading in on this topic. He brought up the "spirit of infirmity" is as a devil spirit cause of physical disease. There might not have even been sinfulness on the part of the afflicted. It was an attack of the adversary. (Also, smoking too, maybe.)

I think cancer as devil spirit is a logical conclusion if you have first accepted the illogical premise that all life is spirit. We were taught that spirit was either spirit of God, a spirit of the devil, or the spirit of man (aka soul life). It's pretty easy to see this has big gaps as WW pointed out. What about fungus, plants, microbes, etc? In as much as cancer has "life of it's own", which category does it belong in? God is supposed to be all good so not Him. Obviously not a man, so that just leaves devil spirits.

But then as you point out, if cancer is a devil spirit affliction, what does that even mean? Is it in your mind (that was how it was supposed to work right?) or is it in your body at some level? The more you try to explain it, the farther off the rails you have to go.

In short, no, cancer is not caused by devil spirits.

Given that you claim to have never met the man, you appear to be treading where angels might fear to go...

Ever consider or remember the meaning and/or implications of Philippians 4:8?

So TLC, what you're saying is, "Don't go chasing waterfalls."