shortfuse

TLC, no one has a problem drawing Wierwille apologists out. There is no need to resort to tricks. The only real challenge is getting them to shut up.

Ouch.

I was wondering if anyone could think of things we were taught in TWI that actually count as wisdom even now, regardless of theological agreement or disagreement.

I can think of one off the top of my head:

"Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."

I think that is one of the most profound statements I have ever encountered.

Any others?

I guess. To me this one is loaded. It says, "Don't trust the counterpoints to my teaching you are going to hear."

LCM was always trying to remix these. The Way Class said something like "The only things sincerity is a garauntee for is... sincerity!" Good one, Craiggers.

I'll have to think on your question.

I remember this a lot growing up in the way, and it amazes me how much I still hear it among family. "It's like, Dr. Wierwille used to say..." or "It's like Howard Allen, said..." or "It's like we were taught in the Way Corps..." I hear these kind of phrases all the time and I have come to view them as sinister.

Every time it is said, to me, it just reinforces the influence of these characters. It also says, "see, they weren't all bad." Of course they weren't *all* bad, but they deserve no further authority or influence in my life. I don't owe that to them. Neither do you.

Thanks. The humor makes it easier, I think. LINK.

I wonder if the writer/editor on the TWI site used *How* deliberately or not. Did they know they were doing it? . . And if they did know, is it meant for the nostalgic? Keeping people in? Because who would be drawn to that message?

So, you just sent me back to http://www.theway.org with your comment. I read through some articles. And I was abundantly blessed. Thanks!

During the 1940s and '50s, the name "Snowball Pete" would have been recognized as a nickname for a person of African American descent.

Word?

Thanks Steve and Waysider, good input. That makes sense.

Okay, according to Generally Accepted Greasespot Theory (GAG Theory), Wierwille could only give that which he is, ego. He gave the gift of PFAL, to standardize thought processes so that His Ego could speak to our ego, and we became Bourne Identity Again. Our minds are subject to PFAL are subject to VPW.

The *how* is a remnant of a VPW manipulation tactic.

Followers of TWI, as his little Waybot clones, are likely parroting VPW when emphasizing how.

Yeah, I think so. In order for me to teach you the "how", you're going to need to do whatever the foot I tell you.

There were long lists of things TWI claimed SIT could do. I don't know why they supposed them. Some of them were in writing. I've since tossed them out.

SIT more to improve your grades in school. Skip coffee, SIT, you will be more alert. Are specific examples.

Ironically I used to have a pair of coffee mugs with the "Benefits of Speaking in Tongues" listed on them.

I never used them for coffee, because, you know... Lo Shanda Malaka Seeta

I can appreciate your frustration. For those inside the group, there is scarcely a transgression that can not be over looked when it comes to their perceived value in having "the rightly divided Word" and residing in "the household." They are willing to suffer a lot for the privilege.. Whether the plagiarism (which is in my view a lesser matter) or the adultery, manipulation and abuse committed by Wierwille and his underlings (considerably bigger matters), all of these things remain strangely dismissible.

Lurking Wayfers: Ask yourself why this is?

Ultimately, I started this thread with one thing in mind. Acknowledging for my own sake, yes, plagiarism was and is a big deal. It was wrong then, and it is still wrong, and I'm sorry, TWI, I can't let you off the hook.

So if I were to be talking to wayfers, about plagiarism (the thread topic), and point out it's wrong and unethical and illegal by today's standards . . . might their minds jump back 30-40 years to a time of who-gives-a-hoot? Are we judging this plagiarism action out of context since it was done in a different time period/subculture? (Or at least the precedent established during a different era?)

edited for grammar

I think the diversion into the Hippie discussion was a response to your description of that generation as being rule followers. I think you and Waysider are actually both right - they were followers and breakers.

As for harkening to a time when plagiarism was viewed as more trivial, I've personally never heard a wayfer make this case. It has always been more a matter of minimizing - saying VPW acknowledged he learned from many sources even if he didn't cite properly, the thing that matters is that the message got out - that sort of thing.

Now... to go a bit further back in the evangelical Christian culture a young VPW developed in, there definitely was a wide acceptance of the practice of borrowing from others work. In my understanding though, this was more in the context of preaching, where sermons were treated as almost public domain and freely recirculated as desired, and this was deemed harmless. If I am being charitable, I could cite this as a possible origin of VPW's borrowing. However, I think it steps into a bigger transgression when you are talking about published work, making claim to biblical research expertise, and benefiting considerably financially.

I'm not sure if this is off topic.

Hippies were known for NOT following rules. That's a part of what drove the movement. Chuck the old rules of society and reinvent the antiquated mores and morals.

VPW offered a chance to do that, explore religion and spirituality without the old, stale constraints that ruled the day. Of course, that's not really what he offered but it was perceived that way by a generation of youth who were searching to make sense of a chaotic time in history. You could go to twig in jeans. No one condemned your long hair. Sit on the floor, play guitar. Very radically opposed to the traditional idea of church.

It's probably hard to imagine that the same TWI, known today for its rigidity and legalism was once a place were people thought they were experiencing a new freedom.

He used other peoples' works to create that false atmosphere and claimed it came to him through profound insight. He was an opportunist who used other peoples' ideas for his own personal gain. Why do people still try to justify that? I don't know the answer.

Since it is my thread, do I get to bless this diversion?

A few months ago, for a school project, I was reading up on the Jesus People Movement. One thing that struck me was how quickly many of them (and not even the folks that later got sucked into TWI) tended towards rigid rule following as they embraced Christianity.

Now, I wasn't there, but I share your perception of the hippies being a counter cultural, rule breaking subculture. That said, it seems like the move towards the Hippie Christianity of the JPM was a shift toward conservativism as the "anything goes" ethos of the era reached it's logical end. I think that's why so many hippies were ready for religion. They just wanted it on their own terms. Some of the examples I'm thinking of were around gender roles. Even in the context of communal Christian (proto-Way Home) living, there quickly emerged a rigid Patriarchal, "men are spiritual, women belong in the kitchen" kind of attitude.

All of this is to say, that the generation so embracing of freedom also seemed quick to embrace the reassurance of restriction. Wierwille cast himself as the paternal 'Father-in-the-Word" that so many craved.

Plagiarism is stealing.

Stealing is wrong.

Taking a loaf of bread without paying in order to save a starving child's life IS WRONG, because it's stealing.

Plagiarizing to (spiritually) save a life is WRONG.

I think your analogy breaks down here, and maybe that's the point of the "maybe it's not so bad" folks. I would most definitely steal bread save a child's life, especially my own child. Letting the child die is a bigger evil in this case. Yes, stealing is morally wrong, but in the context you gave, I don't care.

Sidebar: This was a fun bit in LCM's class. They were to SIT in session 10, and it was to be done in private with a couple grads. If someone did not SIT it was because they were hard hearted and we were supposed to DROP them from the class before the next session.

Ooh, book idea.

Plagiarize the way books whole sale. Just word for word. Instead of crediting VPW or whoever, credit the original authors. I wonder if twi would try to take any legal action, and if so, if it would hold up.

I know, a great big, who cares? but the irony appeals to me.

Do (or did) you know, from your history and experience, anyone who exhibited the "dark triad" of psychological traits?

"Lurking beneath the surface of people who use others to their own advantage is psychology's "Dark Triad." Defined as a set of traits that include the tendency to seek admiration and special treatment (otherwise known as narcissism), to be callous and insensitive (psychopathy) and to manipulate others (Machiavellianism), the Dark Triad is rapidly becoming a new focus of personality psychology."

Rocky, I heard the NPR interview with Konnikova and was struck by this "dark triad" observation she makes. I thought at the time how well Wierwille fit the description. I am also curious to read her thoughts about cults as she mentioned this in the interview - former cultists are among the most affected by having been conned.

One of the things people tend to do when they have been conned is minimize what was done, or hide it for shame. It seems important for recovery to call these things by their real names. Plagiarism is the only honest way to describe this. Who are we sheltering when we minimize this? If it's Wierwille, who cares? He's been dead for over twenty years. No, we minimize it to shelter ourselves from the pain of acknowledging the con. At least that is one reason. Again, he is long gone. Only the deception lingers. And that is only if we let it.

Came across this in a college class I'm taking now and it reminded me of my own past inclination to minimize Wierwille's plagiarism.

http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism

Yeah it's a real problem. It's fraud. It's lying. It's nothing to build your ministry on. Unless of course you are a fraud. In which case, carry on.

DWBH, you posted to me earlier in this thread: How many twit ordinations did you attend in your brief 5 year stint with twit from 72-77? You state you "now see it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding" I was in rez from 73-76, 3 of the 5 years of your involvement, and I never heard of ANYTHING you describe. How so?

Well DWBH, maybe you never heard of that little game cause you were in "rez" during that period and not out on the field.

Don't throw your "I be corp" or "I was in rez" stuff at me: that dog don't hunt anymore. Most of my headaches in the field came from you corp and hq folks who busted into our areas and provided their great accolades and dissed us for lack of PFAL classes and then left like a whirlwind.

I don't even remember the number of you corp folk I sponsored over the years and with only one exception did I get a thankyou.

So DWBH, you were 4th corp, that would make your interim year the summer of 1974 to summer of 1975: what did you do that interim year or did you do your "in rez" years back to back, oops, I see, you stayed at HQ,et.al. ("I was in rez from 73-76) you wrote.

So now DWBH, I understand you hung around twi for 13 years - I don't see that as any badge of honor but quite the opposite; why did it take you so long to figure out what was going on, espcially given your "in rez" view of it all.

Go for it DWBH, you wasted 8 more years of your life in twi than I did.

Actually, I am not even sure you (or TLC for that matter) were ever in the corp; so,you were 4th corp: who was Cathy G.?

Um...

What years are you talking about there? I'm pretty sure that's not how it worked in the earlier years. I could be wrong.

"Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined."

For sure. The same could be said for the way W.O.W.'s were assigned to areas. Assignments were based on mundane things like who had a car, not on "revelation".

I tend to think you are both right. I remember reading from VPW's letters to the Corps household (late 70's I think) where he basically invited people to request ordination if they felt so inspired. By the time I was in the Corps (mid-90's) it had become much more opaque. You didn't ask to be ordained, it was an invitation you received at the discretion of the Board of Directors. I agree that the ordination was seen as validating or highlighting the gift ministries of a person.

Then please note that if I don't understand your question or see how it relates to something I've said, then I'm probably not going to post a reply.

Well, I'm certainly not a mind reader, if it's something rolling around in your head.

That's not how I wrote it, but if that's the way you care to see it, so be it. What one thinks is real may or may not be real. But if it's not real, does it make a hoot of a difference whether or not it's "new"? However, if it truly is "real", it'd be rather egotistical to think that it's "new," don't ya think?

I replied to that once already.

Lordy Pete. Is that your only view of God?

You and/or your god seem pretty intolerant of questions.

I think any corporation would be suspicious of any "executive"

who consistently refused to say who he was working for

while extolling his great skills at working for them.

It's a little hard to confirm his claims that he's any good if he

redacts any way to check his credentials.

BTW, it's easy to manage twi and keep things under-budget for

day-to-day operations....

they just order the locals to cover all expenses

out-of-pocket and order them to never complain about it.

You can do that when you run a religious cult- and it works if

what you're running IS a religious cult.

So true.

I see humor. I don't know why.

Dark comedy.

Current job title on LinkedIn: "Board of Director", presumably the singular of Board of Directors.

http://johnanthonyrupp.wix.com/website

Seems to be looking for a job.

I heard a fun fact yesterday, I don't know if it's confirmable. I heard that the offshoot Christian Family Fellowship is actually bigger than TWI (at least in the USA).

Just listened to an interview with Konnikova over the weekend. She talked about people in cults being some of the con victims who suffered the most loss. VPW sure seems to fit her description of a con. That plus your post, I need to go pick up this book now.

Atheist Joe was one of the less popular PFAL characters, ex-boy friend to Maggie Muggins.

Based on what some posters who worked closely with Rivenbark have said, I would agree that her micromanaging style absolutely influenced Martindale. I got out about a year after Martindale was ousted, so I don't have much direct experience with the post-Martindale TWI, but it sounds like, at least on the local level, the extreme controlling was dialed back. Not much info from inside HQ these days, but I'd imagine there the micromanaging continues

My impression was that some of her micromanaging was directed AT Martindale and was an accountability measure in light of his cheating. It was foisted on the Corps after a few individuals had died - one in a car collision, the other in a work place fall. Craig took up this mantra that we could and should "schedule the adversary out of our lives". Depending on the zeal of the Corps to impart/impose these seem principles on their people. Sounds like Bolshevik got some of the worst of that.

dange rolls down hill.

Another example of this is the gift policy. We had a whole awkward time there where none of us could receive gifts of any kind. Supposedly all these corps were being bribed by people with seemingly innocuous gestures. There may have been abuses, not really at my level. Craig was far and away the biggest abuser of the "protocol" of gift giving. Hell, in the first draft of the Way of Abundance and Power coordinators guide, there was a whole page of suggested gifts that he as the teacher would enjoy receiving. Not long after that was all shut down, and all the field people got chewed out for accepting bribes. I'm pretty sure looking back that whole thing was about Craig himself.