shortfuse

I've never heard of The Way helping any individuals financially. The argument was always that if you do something for one person you have to do it for everyone. Since we are not prepared to do it for everyone, we'll do it for no one.

I have helped people out of my own pocket, and have been tempted to set up a side fund just for helping local people but never did. Any giving to help individuals was always between the individuals and not a ministry sanctioned deal.

That said, TWI has contributed to the Red Cross on occasion, namely after a few significant disasters. Also they contributed a bunch of equipment to community organizations after they stopped doing the ROA. These seemed to be with the motive of engendering good will in the community.

Honestly for several years before I left, I prayed for death. Often. It just seemed like a much easier way out of the trap of The Way. I didn't fear dying from leaving. I feared living through it. At some point, I don't recall when, it occurred to me how ridiculous that was to feel that way. I realized there was nothing they could truly do to hurt me, and that my freedom was more important to me than anything else, even family. It took a few years to sort out, but I am happily out of that mess now.

Reading that post was like looking into the face of God, and him saying, "You are my beautiful child." Well played.

Under the wayfer system:

If you leave twi/adhering to vpw beliefs, the adversary will attack your life and eventually kill you, your kids, and your goldfish. Worst of all, he will take your eternal rewards, and you won't get to ride on an eternal Cushman. You'll be scrubbing toilets and choping firewood nonstop forever, with an already renewed mind of course.

Now, the adversary can't take your eternal life, no matter how hard you try to rid yourself of it. Playing bumper golf carts for eternity can only be enjoyable for so long. And wearing crowns is sooo last millenium.

So, since wayworld is an eternal given, was anyone really scared of death? Or at least, was scared at first, but after a few years of this malarky, just didn't give a hoot?

Didn't anyone play chicken with the adversary?

I have assumed the same thing. However, apparently it's not the legal department keeping this policy in place. It's Rosalie.

LOTS of currently leadership including several region coordinators, presidents cabinet and others are not on board with this policy. And yet it persists.

It's seems to be just about control. To make the change now would be akin to admitting error, and they never do that for fear of weakening their position.

I agree some of the Corps and Advanced class grads have adopted their own "don't ask, don't tell" policy on debt. They figure it's none of their business in the first place and as such don't view it as being deceptive not to volunteer this information.

can't they be sued if they do?

Mmm, good verse. Thanks for that thought.

It's all just one huge ball of Pharisees and vipers - something to pray to God to be delivered from - like 2 Thess 3:2 speaks of - to be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men.

Way Leadership Still Douche Bags

That is all.

Good night.

That's great SF, what made you pull the plug?

There's no one issue or event. Perhaps sometime I will put it in a "my story" post.

Perhaps.. or from the sheer numbers of people they casually "confronted", defamed, declared "possessed".. they honestly just can't remember.. you're just another face in the crowd, and they can't quite recognize you..

Sadly I think this is really true.

It has taken me years to extricate myself from The Way, but I have finally done it. I am starting to realize that I am a little more fdup than I would really like to admit, and I have a long recovery ahead.

Nov 4 was also the birthday of my friend, the late J Fred Wilson... God rest his soul.

And Will Rogers

Debt Free

Trapped inside a thorny tangle of thoughts

Your conscience is a weapon turned against you

Your own moral strength used to restrain you

Struggling to break free with reason but sinking deeper,

Mistakenly you believed that this evil was reasonable

Let me be clear, YOU OWE THEM

No explanation

You have no obligation

Except to yourself

I know, "WTF", right?

Just venting - out into the universe/cyberspace.

It is the "open" forum.

Accosted with adjectives and adverbs

You Cripple me with Clichés

Oblivious to the Thesaurus Abuse

You use, so Prevailing and Abundant

No, Annoying and Redundant

And stagnating and dead inside

and smiling as if you really had life

and a light to guide, but you're empty

it’s plain to see, you're empty

out of ideas, you keep “renewing your mind”

Rehashing the line, tell yourself that s h i t one more time

And then another, don’t stop

or even breathe long enough to think

You’re never too far from the brink

You think you play it safe

But what you do abnegate yourself by denying your nature

It’s not sin that’s within,

you were meant to be free,

Not spoon fed, second hand, third hand gruel

Show the world you’re not a fool and make your own choice

The voice in your head it’s not Satan tempting you

It’s the voice of reason, and the lies you tell yourself are poison.

nevermind

Good points Oakspear and Socks, thanks.

It wouldn't be a problem at all, until one makes that comment against a poster on a public forum that discourages such activity. "please don't make it personal" means what it says and says what it means. It is very simple.

Besides, even if it were absolutely true that someone were actually worshipping Wierwille, still, it'd be against the forum rules to make it personal on the forum. I believe it is irrelevant to the discussion of the issues what the disposition and character of a poster might be.

Want to get personal? I think the appropriate way would be to use PM, email, snail mail, the telephone, or use automobiles, trains, planes, etc., to visit in person.

Suppose you were actually a literal bag of douche. Would it still be a personal attack to say, "Oldiesman is a douche bag" or just a statement of fact? Hypothetically speaking.

From the LA Times

It's about time.

-- Shaz

You could give them TWI's name and number, but nothing would happen.

This is nothing but grandstanding politicians. The targets chosen are selected based on public name recognition.

I am in favor of financial transparency to church members, but keep the government out of regulating the church. I realize this separation of church and state has made it difficult to prosecute some wrong doings in TWI and else where, but the alternative is not better. You do not want the government running your church.

Let these grandstanders clean up their own sphere and crack down on inappropriate spending by politicians.

This is kind of embarrassing.

I've looked all through my Advanced Class Syllabus and can't seem to find out what spirit it is that will possess you if you look at the internet.

Anybody know?

I imagine LCM would say a "spirit of error".

did he actually name names?

Good question. I only recall it being in a general sense.

A few things I remember on this:

He talked about the evil effects of the internet after the Columbine tragedy. Something about how it was enabling disturbed little nerds to access to information on weapons, ammunition, and so forth.

Regarding the ministry and all the criticism on the internet, he referenced Acts 28:22. "But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against." Everywhere Paul's ministry was spoken against - so we must be in good company!

He rather famously "Marked and Avoided" anti-ministry websites.

Another time I heard him remark that the stuff on the Internet was either "not true or it's none of your business".

Nametags, we all know what an important status symbol these could be.

Does anyone know when all that goodness started? I remember hearing about it being a part of Summer School at HQ in the early 70's (it was your ticket into the dining room, I've heard) and probably from the get go with the Corps. Does it have any earlier roots than that at TWI?

And on a broader note, WTF with nametags anyways? Sure I can see value at an event where people don't know each others name, but isn't it just a little cultish to be so obsessed with them in general? Mommons rock 'em, Wayfers rock 'em, (hmmm, wonder if scientologists are into 'em...). What the big dealyo with nametags?

P.S. I'm not saying they're not awesome - they are. I'm just sayin.

You know, if I were an innie and saw that, I think that would be the last straw, my heart would have sank.

Absolutely no imagination, the same old same old rehashed again for the umpteenth time.

Are you so totally uninspired? Such a lack of imagination? Such a lack of heart for any people that are left?

Its actually insulting.

I would take one look at that and realize we now have a dead ministry.

Remarkably, people seem pretty excited about it.

im lost

who is the new leader and what position do they actually have?

thanks

No new leader.

There was some speculation that a new prez might be announced at the anniversary... There was a discussion about the possiblity of B. M0ynihan being this new leader and then some discussion of how much some folks here dislike his folks.

I think there will be some changes coming, but I would project that to be about 5 years out, and it won't involve BM, imo.

makes for lively discussion though.

Peace,

sF

It would help if you named specific doctrines, and asked about their origins.

It's not really important to discover the origins of the specific doctrines right now. I was thinking more along the lines of whether there was a transition point where VPW began to embrace all these things for the sake of being different.

In the case of the non-Trinity stuff, it's been stated before that vpw BEGAN as a Trinitarian (there's old documents

somewhere, which I've seen, where vpw sent a letter somewhere and his greeting included a reference to

the Trinity. That was back when he was toying with the Ecumenical movement (possibly trolling them for

recruits, possibly for other reasons.)

If you want to look specifically for his Trinity positions, I'd recommend looking at discussions of

Leonard's specific doctrines. Leonard's made some statements that are NOT Trinitarian,

and I THINK they were in his book subtitled "the water in the bottle." Someone more familiar with

Leonard will have to chime in here. (Or you can dig up the old posts on it.)

vpw was introduced to Leonard's stuff sometime before 1953, and in 1953 he attended BG's class, which

became "vpw's class" a few months later. vpw was quite good at passing along material from others

without necessarily understanding it, so just because vpw got his specific beliefs from Leonard doesn't

guarantee they were an ACCURATE reflection of Leonard. vpw's been known to flub Bullinger as well.

As for vpw secretly saying God was ok with orgies, that was history as of when he went to Haight-Ashbury

to the House of Acts to hijack the hippies. He told J1m D00p that at the time.

Never heard that orgy bit before. Did D00p approve of that position?

As for WHY twi adopted non-traditional doctrines, it's my opinion that this was one of vpw's PRIMARY

approaches. Even Mrs W's accounts of twi (in her book, "Born Again to Serve") showed him trying to work

with young people (as does Uncle Harry's account in TW:LiL.) He specifically TARGETTED the youths from

the beginning of his career. Do you attract them by sticking to tradition? NO-

if you want to maximize NUMBERS and NUMBERS matter most to you,

you will look for something NEW and DIFFERENT, something shiny, to try to draw them.

The natural rebellious streak will make it more likely they'll give your group a second look.

If you look at ALL the sources vpw used, it's pretty obvious that the only thing he used that was

standard was Young's Concordance, and everything else was taken from sources as OBSCURE as possible,

or DIFFERENT as possible.

WW, exactly what I was getting at.

"Look, I have something you've never heard before!

I got it directly from God, who promised it's the first time for 2000 years Christians have heard it!

This is the secret "original Christian" stuff!

You can't get it anywhere else, because they don't have my special connection with God Almighty!"

Right, the scarcity principle. People still hanging around the Way because the think they won't be able to find this teaching, this "rightly divided Word" anywhere else. In some ways they are right.

VPW was introduced to anti-trinitarianism by Jock Edwin Stiles, Brian George Leonard, and George Machismo Lamsa.

Machismo, eh? He should have went with that. The Machismo Bible would have sold some units.

The Way teaches that home fellowships (known elsewhere as cell groups, Bible studies, etc) are THE way God intends for the church to meet in our day, and THE way for the "Word to move" in this administration.

For instance, Acts 2:46

"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart," [Way emphasis added]

Add to this a handful of salutations to individuals and the "church in their homes" from the epistles and you can cobble together a case.

BUT, you could also read the verse above and note that they were STILL IN THE TEMPLE EVERYDAY, and that what they did from house to house was EAT. Now, I dig home fellowships in someways, and I can appreciate what they have to offer. But, to say it is the only and best way to do it is just silly. From a cynical viewpoint, it is zero overhead revenue stream. What's not to love about that?

When did home church come to The Way? I remember hearing that a number of leaders left the ministry when VPW decided to go that route. Anybody know more about the timing and rational?