doojable

How does one unring the bell of the god or gods of volcanos, the sea, rivers, the seasons, the sun, moon, and stars, and so on? How does one unring fairy, leprechaun, or forest nymph bells?

AHHHHHH but - I never believed in those beings - so no bell has rung. I have no mental gymnastics to do here. ( You might say this is sad - but I'm not sad.)

It's fine with me if you accept gods of the earth, leprachauns etc. - But I if you don't and are just putting them forth for the sake of the argument - then the point really is mute. I just would find it very difficult to go through life without at least a memory of God, Jesus.

I wonder - is it God you dont' believe in or the organizations that have been representing Him lately?

I do see the value of reevaluating - but personally I couldn't totally forget it all and go through life that way.

"Unring that bell" is a line used in courts by lawyers. Once a jury heas something it is said that even of instructed to disregard it the cannot really forget ever hearing it.

And your daughter may not believe in God or gods - but she has heard of them. (Just an aside not an argumentative point.)

In 1983 my family and I had stopped active participation in TWI due to a dispute with our Limb Coordinator. We never gave up on Way doctrine however.

In 1990 we started making inquiries about getting involved again, since we wanted our oldest child to take PFAL. We still had contact with some "innies", who set up a meeting with the Limb Coordinators. At that meeting was the first time we heard about the split between Martindale and Geer. Previously we had heard hints about problems down in Texas, where two of my former room mates had moved after getting married, but didn't realize the size or extent of it.

I was in Texas in 1989. Having received "The Letter" to the Corps, I felt that the time had come to leave. It helped that I had left the ministry about 2 years before that for about a year - so I knew that debbul spurts weren't going to decend on hy home in droves.

It also helped that our whole branch was just about ready to leave. There had been a teaching where lcm had taught about "The Rock" he sad that God was the Rock - vpw had said Jesus Christ was the Rock ( or vice versa) and the teacher had said that lcm had fonally done the unforgiveable - taught that JC was God. (Mind you, a lot of us were looking for justification to leave - just because we felt that to be truly self propogating and self governing we had to leave.

Shortly after that a fairly new corps grad was very upset and must have gone to some meeting because she just kept on repeating that we all swore that we would follow lcm. Someone was in the area doing damage control for twi - as I remember it it was a fairly low level tc that had found a quick way to move up the food chain.

I wonder Oakie - what was the "trouble in Texas" it would be interesting to hear it from twi's point of view....

You should have found a way to sneak that hair into her refreshments - you know - hide it under the cream cheese on the celery.......

EEEEWWWWWW!!!!

Oakspear,

My hubby knew this back when he first said it. he felt like TWI was acting like a "nation with a belligerent foreign policy" Ther were so many terms and "letters" that meant nothing to anyone not twi.

PFAL

Sit

retemorize (while most say "memorize")

etc etc ad nauseum........

all in all it seemed like twi was inventing its own language in a way. And it did indeed prove to be extreme, chauvinistic, and belligerent.

The language had the effect of separating people out like they wre in some kind of club.

Just in case you thought the term was used flippantly...

...The cliches were a good example of parroting.

Getting rid of "wayspeak" from my vocabulary was a big step in cult recovery. "God bless, you're the best", "renew your mind", "I'll speak in tongues for the situation", "use it or lose it", "God won't spit in your direction...", etc etc etc.

Rational thought was replaced with "waybrain". Instead of thinking logically and giving an appropriate response, people would simply put their brains on auto pilot and spew out cliches.

This parroting thing got so bad that some guys even tried to emulate the personality styles, the hair styles, the clothing styles, and the teaching styles of their favorite leader. It became pathetic.

I suppose that when substance is lacking, style takes on a greater importance.

My hubby always called "Way speak" jingoism. He said that with all our "S-I -T " and God bless your face from outer space" not to mention all the class acronyms we ended up shutting people out.

It has always been my opinion that people gave the most when they wee left to give from their heart. Force 10% and you'll get less - because you've shifted the standard and lowered it form the Law of Love. Fuuny how TWI lost that concept...

Having believed in God - How do you "unring that bell?"

Sure there are all sorts of things that don't loose their meaning "if there is no God," but somewhere in the back of your life there was a belief in God. I'm not so sure that the same would be true had you never known or been exposed to Him. ( I know you might say that I am assuming that there is a Him to have known - but this can be circular to the extreme if we're not careful.)

Giving my two cents - yet again.

Well you will be SO happy to know tht I clean my classromm tables and chairs with Clorox cleaner. Most people don't think of the backd of the chairs - but that is where little hands go - right?

i was just thinking of that statement you made:

"i wonder though if it took you over 20 years to forgive yourself for something you never did wrong"

and thought i'd take it a few steps back

because it reminded me of a few things

like how people can and do pass on specific ways of blaming and forgiving

in ways that continue for hundreds or thousands of years

Isn't this all too real today"

Thousands of years ago God gives Abraham a promise of children. But his wife gets anxious and he gives in and gets a substutute. Enter Hagar and her son Esau. God then keeps His promisd HIS way and Sarah has a child - Isaac. Exit Hagar and Esau.

Bitterness. Resentment. Fighting, fighting and more fighting. The wars still continue today. Hagar and Esau were totally screwed by Abraham. God took care of them. Imagine what would have been a major change in history if Hagar and Esau could somehow have forgiven Abe and Sarah and found true joy and thankfulness in God's provision. ( Now I know they didn't deserve to be cast out. God didnt' tell Abe to cast them out - Sarah did out of jealousy.)

I bet both sides don't even realize that this is a centuries-old family dispute. One side hates and the other responds with hate. Both sides feel totally justified in their actions. Both sides have valid points. Now it's gotten to the point that there is financial profit in continuing this family feud. ( War really is a great money maker even if it destroys lives.)

Sometimes I have to face myself and ask myself "What is the Payoff for holding on to the past?" Sometimes I have to anwer,"nothing." other times the answer is that the resentment feels so familiar that I am more at home with it than I imagine I would be with the alternative. Then I realize the rediculousness of this and I ask God for help. I get out of His way and go through the difficult process of forgiveness. Its tough and it never seems fair. It goes against all sense of justice. But it is the only thing that works.

Just speaking for myself here.....

So here's a DD war story. It was my last year in res.(11th corps) at Emporia. I believe it was the last block ( iguess that's what they used to call them.) I had FINALLY gotten into DD. I was ready to prove myself.

I was asked to make a card ( I think it was for lcm's birthday - but I don't remember) I chose to use colored pencils and draw a lighthouse scene with a bunch of men braving the rocks and waves - m*rk L*w^s had done a teaching about the song "let the lower lights keep burning and had taught that the lowerlights were those who went and fought for the lost - held up smaller lights so that the ships didn't crash on the rocks when they came to shore.) I did this all from imagination and inspiration. For some reason I thought this was appropriate. I must say that it came out amazing - J Lynn said that is was suitable for framing.

A few months later I was specificcaly asked to do another card for lcm.. This time no such inspiration was allowed. I was told it had to include the building where teachings happened ( Uncle Harry????) I found a pic to use and colored. Mind you I had only one night to do this. I had to stay up until it was time to go on bless patrol (wasn't excused!) then I wasn't given permission to stay and sleep during classes like oh so many of my corps mates had been for much less. All this and - they didn't use the card anyway!!! Some bull about it being spiritually dark. ( It was a night scene because that was the only good pic we had and there was a guy walking whose face was only about the size of a pea. I blurred it because I wanted the emphasis on the building and the lights (must have been a thank you card for some class.) Since the face was blurred I was told it seemed Dark.(????!!!!!WTF???!!!!) Hey that was not a very good looking building - and I gave them what they asked for. What replaced it - some heart thing - trite and nothing special as I remember it. - But that my have been sour grapes.

So I got no sleep and I wasn't told about the change - I found out when the card was presented. I really felt the love that day. That's when i realized that I was just another pair of hands to them - just like it would have been in the "real world."

Anyway that was years and years ago -

Next.......

Too Gray - Thanks for the cudos. I keep on thinking that these waves come then recede then come back. Mybe that's why Romans 8 had to be written - so that God could tell us to get off our own cases and let Him do the judging.

I have learned that when you judge another you do judge youself - because at the very least you set up a standard that you must now uphold. For some people those standards are so high that even they themselves cannot cut the mustard. (Sounds like some Pharisees we know - huh?)

I had a friend that kept on changing the prople he ran with because he had done just that - set up standards for "friends" then when the fell short of the mark he reproved them - then when they returned the favor, he had to leave them for other friends. ( It was wrong as long as YOU did it but if HE did it he was OK because he had some justification.) Needless to say, I became one of his castoffs.

There is a paragraph in the book that I started this with that says something to this effect - has to do with legalism and how it keeps one far from grace.

Quite frankly, if it takes swallowing my pride to live in grace - I'll do it.

Doesn't the Word say something abvout how easy it is to love the loveable (but anyone can do that) the real trick is loving the unloveable (now THAT:S hard!!!) Put simply - the most unloveable people in my book are those that I need to forgive - because they hurt ME! And sometimes I can say:

"I have seen the enemy and he is us." (Or She is me.)

Anyway - just some thoughts.

You ALL are so wonderful!

I was thinking about one of those stages that TGN spoke of.

I have found that many times the first thing I have to do is forgive myself - not that I'm necessarily WRONG but because looking back in hindsight I see the million and one things I could have done to avoid being abused - in any fashion.

I guess I'm thinking about that guy that cornered me and how I reacted. Looking back, even tho I wasn't compromised I hated that I wasn't louder, or told someone sooner. When I found out that he was boinking others i had to forgive myself for not blowing the whistle and not giving him the opportunity to do that again.

I hadn't done anything wrong. But I wanted to do more. I had to stop that cycle of reliving the moment and rethinking every frikkin' thing.

In a way I have to "forgive in waves." First I had to forgive myself, then I had to forgive others- It all comes slowly.

Perhaps this slow process helps us to better appreciate the forgiveness we receive from the Father. helps us to better realoze just what it was that Jesus Christ did for us - and Lord knows that wasn't a slow and easy process for him.

Anyway, thank all of you for being so honest and open and kind to each other.

What about the LUPINS????? Who was that guy that gave all the poor lupins (down here in Texas them thare are Bluebonnets pardnah!)

SO.... will the entry statue be a...Timmy Dove? (wasn't it a statue if Timothy at HQ?) Oh well there goes my cleverness

I'll be in charge of refreshments..

Dooj, a very apropriate annalogy. That poor wife, I feel so sorry for her being trapped with that man...you know that there must have been an enormous amount of pressure....if she wanted to leave....the ministry would have sided with her ordained husband of course.......she would have been evil and posessed.

Rascal - the funny thing is that she never did leave him. He says that he changed - but I still wonder....Others' says that he's healed - he never asked me or my hubby (who he REALLY slammed) for forgiveness - just a halfhearted, "If i've ever done anything to hurt you or your family I'm sorry..." :unsure: WTF???

I finally decided that I didn't have to forget to forgive. Now I haven't called him and told him this - and I won't. He even tried to look me up at work years later - I gave him a real cold shoulder. (And Ex I believe you know this person.) I don't want to open up that subject again - just that it took me along time to "let him off the hook" by doing the right thing - AGAIN!!! I figure - he's got his reward (aand some STD's to show for it.)

WW - My husband informs me that there was also the

"Ministry of People Who Put Things On Top of Other Things"

Wordie - I remembered that ministry and was going to post it - but I forgot. If only I could have gotten into one of THOSE ministries - would have been more fun!

There was another tho - I can't quite remember it - had to do with silly skits or interuptions - I've seen it recently - but I have half-heimers on occasion

Many have asked me to post the explanation of my handle - doojable. It all started as the word, "dooj."

A "dooj" Well - when my first little girl was born we called her a "pookie doodle" As things go. After a while all sorts of things had the term doodle attached to them. We had a friend that got really into Paulie Shore and his was of speaking (ie Grindage, Grundage, etc) we tried to get our then 2 year old to say "doodle-age" and it came out "dooj" - After that everything became "dooj - _____" So instead of being "do-able" it was "doojable."

Now my avatar...I am a Drawing teacher and artist. The avatar is one of my paintings entitled, "One Afternoon in February." It is one of my favorites because of the colors and that "don't frack with me" look on the model. (Anyone watch Battlestar Gallactica?)

I'll use other avatars but that just seemed like the right one at the time.

Oh and Dove there's always DoojDove

What's interesting about a predator is, they usually have what is considered a "personal myth" which they use to justify their own behavior.

I believe for these men, they felt God had called them to do it, that they had a God-given right to our bodies: VPW's self-proclaimed role as "The Teacher" encompassed teaching all areas of life, including your sexuality. It was part of his personal myth.

I'm not saying God called them to do it, I'm saying that's quite probably the sick and bizarre reasoning VP used to justify his actions. The personal myth is part of the psychological disorder of sexual predation, along with a constellation of other related aspects.

I would like to add something here. I keep thinking about the phrase, "Misery loves company." I think that saying could be extended to guilt, shame, avarice and any other evil. I truly believe that this predatorial behavior was systematically spread because it is very hard to call someone on the carpet if you are guilty of the same thing. Somewhere along the line someone was the first to witness vpw in his depravity. Doesn't it make sense that rather than try to convince that person that it was "just a one time thing." It was much easier to start some lie and get them involved in the same sin? Basically, I see how predators could have been raised up. Ordain them, give them houses, get them in paid positions where their liveliehoods and that of their families were dependant on their staying in the "good ole boys" club - and you have quite a system of sick and depraved error.

Like the sewer lines that run under our streets.... that is how I describe all the wrongs I have read here.

And jon - I hvae said more than once that twi didn't affect me the same as many of those who have posted here. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, or that it isn't happening still. I knew a woman whose ordained husband was cheating on her. She nearly suffered a nervous breakdown because of the doubt that man instilled on her. And while he wasn't taking care of business at home he was wrecking believer's lives throughout the city- I became one of those casualities because I could have called him on the carpet - so he silenced me by declaring me as having left God and His word when in truth I had only left this man's group that he called a ministry. He even ORDAINED a woman that he had had an affair with because she demanded it in order to keep her silence! Now this woman goes around and announces that she is a WOG when all she is is a w#ore that turned the right trick at the right time.

People look at Auschwitz and reminisce over the wrongs done. They look at Pearl Harbor. Isn't it necessary to look at the past in order to keep from repeating the same mistakes in the future? ( I know there is a more eloquent quote - but I paraphased it anyway.)

Speaking pesonally, I find that when I am strugggling with forgiveness is when I make myself a victim. I concentrate on what someone did to ME. What someone said to ME. How they ignored ME.

I am like a dog licking its wounds in the middle of a great highway - because fo everyone else life goes on and they have their own hurts they are dealing with.

Once I let go of that and stop looking at how I was wronged I am able to look around and see that others have it much worst than I.

I lost a mom young - but I wasn't an orphan. I wasn't raised in a wartorn country and my children weren't barracaded in their school by terrorists.

This doesn't mean that I forget my life but I insist on making it better for others like my kids.

Doesn't the Bible say something about God giving us beauty for ashes? We have got to be willing to trade in the ashes.

Seems to me that the only reasonable response to knowing God is to help people.

Mother Theresa was addressing a group regarding abortion. When asked what to do with all the unwanted babies (because the foster care system was already overcrowded and it seemed unfair to raise these kids w/o love.) she responded, "Give them to me." She believed that if she were presented with this problem that God would help her solve it.

Now I know that this was one man's response in REJECTING religion - but it seems like the perfect response for embracing God - without religion.

I haven't had the easiest life, but i always forget my problems when I am helping another more in need than I. The greater the resentment or sadness I feel the more needy the person. And the feeling of relif lasts much longer than anything from a bottle or a pharmacy could - because in doing so I believe that God allows healing for the soul.

So follow through on your threats - but maybe hold off on rejecting God - You just might find He meets you where you think you're least likely to find him.

Just my two cents...

I loved the way they would invent "ministries" Such as the "Ministry of Silliness,"

Oh and there was the global hide and seek - took them YEARS to find each other.

No. he doesn't hang out here Jumpinjive. Be gald. I'm afraid that he would get right in the fray with Mike, Allan, jkboeme, and their various caounterparts - and it wouldn't necessarily be pretty. He's a lawyer and he doesn't have a whole lot of patience for some of the stuff that goes on here.

Oh yes! He was never Corps. We left together during our first year of marriage - all "thanks" to lcm's letter. I never signed up to follow a man - I could have done that with what I left behind. I instead chose to follow God and have not looked back since.

Hubby had major problems with twi's teaching on forgiveness and put it in a thesis way before anyone else was figuring out it was bunk. (At least on public record.)

He's doing well now and taking one day at a time.