doojable

Irisheyes:

We already dealt with that subject. I am tabling that one in my arguments so that another point can be argued. But you're right, VPW did let on that he came up with this all on his own. Somewhere around page 4 or so the concept of plagerism was dropped, just for simplicity's sake.

I'm not sure where Sharon is... Anyone know?

if you "see" her tell her to get the game moving again - please!!!!

Allan,

What I tried to say a few posts ago was that I believe that even if VPW had not compiled all the writings of Bullinger, Leonard, et al, that GOD would have led you and I to these. He handled the birth of Jesus - I think He could have handled this -if it were what He truly wanted.

No confrontation here(or earlier) - I didn't mean for it to come off as such. My Yankee sarcasm gets me in trouble sometimes - but it also serves me well.....

Suppose I were to say that God told me to tell you that PFAL was not God-breathed......

Ahhhhhh - now there's dueling revelation. (anyone have that little ditty from "deliverance" handy? LOL)

My point is and remains that God has to prove the work not the man writing or reading it.

Mike,

I must agree that "Filerbustering" just isn't the case here. In order to answer a long piece another long piece must be written.

I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways..

You can't on the one hand demand context and then complain when you are quoted and debunked. Even if you feel that the debunking is unwarranted, it's the game. If anyone of us don't want to play we take our ball and go home (ie stop posting.)

It may be tiresome, true - but just don't answer those arguments that you deem unimportant. Free will still exists.

Allan,

The WHOLE quote was:

What have you learned from PFAL that you could not learn from the Word itself? (The answer "how to work the word just isn't good enough - because that information was available long before the class.)"

The class teaches how to work the Word - not how to live life. Otherwise, there are literally HUNDREDS of books out there that tell us more than the Word. ( Please so not interpret this as my thinking the Word of God has no value. Just trying to flesh out poor logic.)

There are English majors out there that spend years of their lives piecing together the works of William Faulkner. Their theses (plural of thesis - I think) show how his books work together and carry themes and characters from one book to the next. Just because they help a reader enjoy Faulkner no one would dare to say that they have just ADDED to the works of Faulkner.

Bullinger wrote "How to Enjoy the Bible", about 100 years prior to PFAL. Then there was the afformentioned BG Leonard class. Not saying that PFAL didn't have anything to offer - just that it wasn't new and it wasn't scripture.

Mike,

Here is the most cogent point I can think of.

You really have failed to prove that PFAL is God-breathed. You have a better argument in saying that God led VPW to the various elements of PFAL.

If PFAL is to be treated as scripture there must be proof. It is not enough to simply quote the class and the words of VPW, or the collaterals. That is like defining a word by using thesame word in the definition. (Just because I tell you that I am holy doen't make me holy - neither does me telling you that God told me to tell you that I am holy.) So here is a question:

What have you learned from PFAL that you could not learn from the Word itself? (The answer "how to work the word just isn't good enough - because that information was available long before the class.)

Doctrine? Reproof? Correction? Instruction in righteousness? Praise?

I see no new doctrine for the generation. No new light. At most there might be a repetition of old light that is new to the generation. (This is a real stretch for me - I did my research paper on apostles and I am NOT submitting that PFAL was new light of any kind - Just playing devil's advocate...) But this does not consitute a working of the class where I find the first use of a word and follow it through.

Please be specific.

Keep in mind that I am well aware that the writings of Paul were not necessarily treated as scripture when they were written. God through Paul helped believers meander their way through an age where grace would abound. (Not so sure is always abounds on this thread though ;)

I think that C.S. Lewis would approach the subject in this manner:

If working the Word includes comparing scripture with scripture how can you go about doing so with PFAL and the collaterals?

Now God gives lots of revelation to lots of people so even if we will take the "Evil Kneival-sized" leap of faith that God gave VPW revelation regarding PFAL, that doesn't make it scripture. ( BTW I do not subscribe to this belief.) Nor does it require that I work it as if it were scripture. If that is so then I also had better get busy checking the words, teachings and writings of every Christian thinker and teacher. Eventually the job would be so colossal that no Christian would ever get down to the business of loving God and serving His people. We are to fear God and keep His commandments - I just dont' believe that God wants us caught up in the web of chasing down just what those commandments are.

AND... the ad hominum attack is the absolute weakest attack from a logical point of view. It gets results but that doesn't mean anything - ultimately. It justs stalls the issues at hand. (this is no matter who does the attacking)

That's it - Your turn Sharon.

"They know not if its dark outside or light..."

Raf,

I wasn't making a "charge" for you to be guilty of. I just have checked this thread every few days or so an have noticed - no Mike.

For the record - or just to satisfy my curiosity - why is it necessary to anticipate his responses?

Lots of good discussion here. A little mean spirited at times - but good just the same. Maybe there's nothing new because -well, there's nothing new to say.

The way I have always approached the subject is this:

If the things in PFAL have helped at all then use them. Don't use what has no value. I often wonder if TWI had not gotten so big so fast because of the youth that carried it in the '70's, if maybe other classes would have carried some of this info instead. Then TWI maybe wouldn't have existed but a lot of the info would still be out there.

Again, just pondering.....

"Put (him or her) out of my misery...."

Anonymous

ok ok I was gone allllllll day - Nutcracker rehearsals and all......

"For unless they see the sky,

But they can't and that is why..."

I think that it is very interesting that Mike hasn't posted in a couple of pages yet many of you are talking for him. Some of you that don't agree with him are even making his arguments for him - or so it seems -

Anyway - just an observation...

What side of town were you on? I was Near the Westheimer/ Hillcroft area.

I'm not sure I ever got to Gilley's.

We got robbed TWICE that year - by someone who we tried to get into the Word. We sure exposed ourselves to a lot considering that a lot of us were still quite young. - but I came to Love that city - until I moved away from it....heh heh heh heh heh

"Take a Walk on the Wild Side" by Lou Reed

Am I right?

Hey Word Wolf - It's your turn - we're all waiting!

I do remember Him. I wonder if he went back to Beaumont - where he was from. it always got me a little that he was so close to home - and he got to continue his art when so many had to give it up.

Bu he was a great guy.

I think I remember you - but I'm not sure since there were soooooo many families from h*ll that year!

Right! - from the "graceland" CD - the next line is one of my favorites -

"there were incidents and accidents, there were hints and allegations..." the song always reminds me about TWI...

Oh yeah - you guys're still here.....

Your turn Raf

" He ducked back down the alley

With some rolypoly little bat-faced girl"

Ok here goes....

"who'll be my roll model

Now that my roll model's

Gone, gone....?"

Good analogy!!!!!

I think the artist is "Cher" but I didn't get the clue for the song

Am I right

dooj

Sorry Jonny Lingo,

I vaguely remember the car - but I'm too old to remember faces - I didn't graduate with you guys - If you feel you can trust me, PM me maybe then we will see if we know each other or not.

Hope that wasn't too much of an invasion considering the privacy factor around here....

I promise to keep it quiet - Just ask Ex10.

Dooj

Hey BTW - does anyone know where Brenda Mooncotch is? let her know I want to say Hi if you do....

Dooj

Ken Brown and his wife. While he was in NYC, he taught a class on logic that sticks with me today. Frank Scaife - another great guy. Not only the 11th corps but many of the 10th as well. The Mooncotch sisters, a girl in the 11th named Nicole - I'm sick tht we were great friends but now I can't recall her last name.

We were united by a love of God and a desire to do good. What I am most thankful for is that without my itme in the Corps I would have had no chance or reason to spend as much time with these people as I did.

WOW! This has really gone haywire! Well I'm glad for the comic relief. I go to teach some students how to see and draw and I come back to ...well... Star Wars! Talk about really going back to the "70's!

And to think that when I joined this site I determined not to get involved in any of the "Doctrinal " forums. Little did I know... This is obviously a LOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNG standing argument. Sorry I didn't know how to figure that out before I started the thread. I'll not do that again!

No matter who's right and who's wrong this can't be good for anyone involved! It's time consuming. It's exhausting just keeping up with the posts. I feel deep within my very being that life is being sucked out of our souls by this. Please forgive me all of you. This was the wrong thread for me to start as a newbie. No matter what you all think of each other (or me for that fact) we are all better than this and God deserves better than this.. If I had the power I would shut this thing down NOW.

Ponder this please, No snappy comebacks. If you see the futility in this just get quiet and pray for your enemy... whoever that may be. Let God sort out the details - He will anyway.