djs

Wow, T-bone you are really deep. Yes, I question a lot of things. What I was taught from a little girl all the way up through my involvement with twi. I guess the main reason I'm gathering info. is due to my all consuming belief that twi was absolutely right on and they did everything in a Godly way. Although, the last several years that ideal mind set has been coming off in layers. It started with the whole debt issue, I didn't understand it and I started questioning why they didn't have a "book" about it. I really wanted to understand it and the more leaders ( and non leaders) I talked to the more I got confused. Everyone had a different opinion that contradicted the other. I looked at it on my own and came to my own conculsions for the first time without help. I guess I'm mad at myself for being so naive without question. I'm not here to point figures at the leadership because really they have no power over me ( or anyone else) if I don't let them. I have to deal with ME because I chose to put on the blinders, I chose not to listen to the spirit of God in so many cases. God gave me a brain and common sense and because that was not enough, he sent his only son to save me and give me all the power that his Holy Spirit has to offer. I guess I'm on a discovery to balance out my outlook on the past and from there I will decide if my future will be with twi.

I started this topic in response to what Tonto asked in the thread Corrupted Top Leadership????? He asked me if I had apologized for any wrong that I had caused. Back in what I call the anal days, I was very different. We were hhf co-or and our fellowship was thriving. Then we started getting beat up by our leadership for not doing things exactly perfect. We were called everything under the sun and yelled at so many times for the stupidist things. So, thinking that was the Godly thing to do we followed suit. We became jerks and thought everyone was f*cked up. That lasted for about a year - we didn't want that anymore. So, we decided to move to another state - it had to be better there because it was closer to hq. Surely, the people there would have their &$*# better together there. No one yelled at us there. Oh no, the leadership had assumed that because we came from "that area" we must be just as evil as what was going on there. He told people and they told people. At our first limb mtg, only two people talked to us out of 150. We felt very lonely at first and defeated. It turned out to be the best thing for us. We weren't allowed to be on crews, we weren't invited to anything. We were able to focus on ourselves and observe what was really going on. We found out there was nothing wrong with us. Only made to believe there was, it turned out we really liked who were and that God loves us regardless. We went back and apologized to so many people that were in our old fellowship ( and others) We had made it a strengh not to let people walk on us. If they spoke rudely, we would say, please don't speak to me that way. I'm your sister in christ and God loves me just as much as you. No matter what I've done (or you think I've done) I deserve respect and you have no right to treat me this way. Just by doing that, we have helped a quite a few people realze they were as*holes. Later, several of them had apologized to us for believing other people and treating us so crappy. So, my question to all of you is....... in what way did you get caught up in the hype of legalism, anal, I'm better than you thing that happened in the 90's??? The other questions are ....... have you changed, too? Do you still have way brain in this area?? Maybe when dealing with people on this site? ******or innies***** I'd really like to hear from you.

Hey Skyrider, Finally......twi has dethroned their MOG status mentality in daily practice. But in ritual.....VPW will always be their Founding Mog......and LCM will be their Honorary Mog. With wierwille, they still hold to his "colateral books" as the Text to measure truth and the snowstorm/gas pump revelation is noteworthy of "true household elitism" .......and martindale's policies of mark/avoid, present truth, sanctifying yourself, devil spirit discernment, no-debt policy, hard-nosed corps training, etc. are still very much in use today. I'll give the first part of this statement where they are holding fast to VPW. However, I would like to know how the m&a, present truth, sanctifying yourself, d s discernment, hard nose corps training etc. is still in practice today? I would like for you to give me facts - not mentitioning any names ( as not to hurt people who may have recently gone through it) I intentionally left out the debt policy in that statement because that is still true today. However, as far as I can see no one is ever asked about their personal business. My bc stated openly that he will not EVER ask that question since it is not his business. He also said that he has been very open with hq about his stance with debt and will not teach it. He still my bc and has been for sometime. I appreciate your questions and comments. Thanks for giving them. Dear Tonto, I've read your post and the questions you asked were really good. I think it deserves it's own post. It will be called "What were you like?" DJS

RFR V. McFadden R. Mitler J. Rupp J. Delisle Region guys I can remember are T Horrocks, Mullins, Naviello, Matt Stiles, Platiq, B. Greene, Oeding, Prewett's..... Other leadership include, Stephen Daniel, Bolchalk, Coulter (they recently did the new class Living God's Word as a Family, it has gotten the name of recover our foot class - it talks a lot about marrige and sex being sacred and that it all stays in that marrige - nothing outside of it) Magnelli, Horney, Bill Coyle, John Reynolds...... I know for a fact that Reynolds stepped down for health reasons. I got an e-mail from a friend about artificial sweetners and the health risk that is involved. It had all the symptons and how doc's miss diagnosed the problem. It was fwd all around and ended up getting to him. I got a note from some one who had passed it on, that eventually got passed to me. It seems that his health improved drasticlly from just taking that out of his diet. I gather a really long time had passed and the doc' couldn't find out what was wrong. He is doing much better from what I hear.

Okay this is what I've heard about rfr that is good. This will come to a shocker to most who knew her before. These are not my words but of a friend who works closely with her at hq. ( No, this person isn't romatically involved in any kind of way. I've known this person for years and am very close to their family. I just wanted to rule out the possibilty!!!!) She is very pleasant, very helpful, and encourages everyone to do their best. She speaks the word with kindness and her doors are always open. She likes for people to write her letters and wants to know their opinions, good things, bad things etc. Hq is an amazing place to live and work at because of the love that flows down from the top. Leadership wants everyone to prosper and grow in everyway. A different friend told me that a letter was written complaing about how long a sns was and that it needed to be simplified and more to the point. RFR wrote back saying that she could see their point and the next big sns had changed and all the ones after that (atleast the ones I actually listened to) Someone else told me that shortly after the lcm thing settled down, that hq immediately became softer, more loving, and really tried to make it a place where families would love to be. It became family friendly, letting stay home mommies stay home. They also made it available for people to go to college, loads of spare time, and recently people can have jobs outside of hq. It was encouraged for people to get out and get a life, join a gym, enroll in an art class, go to community events, etc. This person attributed, atleast in part to rfr leadership. (the weekends can be like a zombie village because people are out visiting friends and involved with living, I've been there a few times and witnessed this) These are comments of people who are currently serving at hq. They aren't leaving for speaking out anytime soon.

Yes, I would like to know about all of them. I've heard that rfr is lesbo, anal, and plenty more. But I've also heard a lot of really positive stuff to contradict it. I like to gather info., filter, then decide. I count on people who post here and friends who are currently work at hq. I look for HONESTY in their outlook and their emotions (- extreme emtional HATE or extreme nicey, nicey EYES GLAZED OVER, the ministry is wonderful no matter what ) Either one of those I don't trust because it can blind and cripple the truth about the matter. In all honesty, I have trouble believing SOME of what is said here. Not all - since I personally experienced some of the same exact things that seemed to spread through the ministry. Let's say someone starts a thread..... it's a supposed question negative against twi.........it starts out fun......people make jokes.......then somewhere in the thread it becomes fact...... when infact the conclusion is DEAD WRONG. Then, I see it discussed later, in other comments in other threads, as if the question that was purposed to be fun, is now absolutely what's going on. Since I'm still involved I still know some of what's going on and know that some of the things - just are not true. I like the sugestion to read that book but honestly, I've decided not to since, for now, I'm not sure I'll be able to tell fact from emotional embelishment. I have a feeling that I will be able to read it in the near future - this is so overwhelming at first. Do I get it from Barnes & Noble?????

I've made no secret that I'm still in twi. I read the posts and am going through a decision process, rather or not I'm staying in. I've heard a lot about lcm and lived through the 90's crap. It was very clear by 2002 that there was a lot of things people didn't know that had went on to destroy lives. It was directed all toward lcm. So, I guess my question is what about the new top leaders. Does anyone know about the current one's???? I would like facts please - not assumptions or indirect hear say. If it could be more current, that would be great but doesn't have to be. With lcm he was always out front, mog etc. Now, there's no mog, no one person is out in front. They've worked really hard at not having a "mog" or icon (idol) but that makes it hard to see other things.

From the sns tape a while back ........... IT is free to grads, it is NOT mandatory. The only thing to pay for is the syllabus ( I never could spell that word) $20, IF you CHOSE too. I think there is three teachers, I don't remember who (sorry, I don't keep the tapes after I listen to them) They perfer if you attend 10 out of 12 sessions as a grad. It is suppose to be a combo of pfal and wap. Toned down and aimed more toward building you up a son of God. I'm not planning on taking it anytime soon but if I do take it I'll let you know. There is no family plan, it is $100 adults and I think $50 for full time students. You get all the basic books and one year way mag. There's more, I just don't remember.

This is what I've heard from many friends who are still on staff at hq and on the field. They get paid normal salaries, so if you were, let's say an accountant in your regular job, you got paid close to your normal pay. Something like this ........ if you made $22.00 hr you might make $18-20 hr. Also, you got medical insurance, some type of retirement funding options ( I saw my friends investment and was very jealous of how good it was) no more than 46hrs a week for everyone - mandatory!!!!!!!! Yes, they have to pay rent, but it's a very small amount and I think that only came about because of new non profit law stuff ( and problaly because of the law suits from Craig) So, let's say you made $2,000. per TWO WEEK period for a married couple you would pay out maybe $100. per month depending on your room. That includes cleaning supplies, utilites, tiolet paper, basically everything but your personal items. That leaves how much left over per month??? My friends are saving so much money right now it's not even funny. My friends have told me that they have never been asked about their private life - ever!!!!! Let alone $$$$$$ You all may want to hate twi and for good reasons, I just thought you'd want to know FACTS, based on the present, from someone who is still in.

In the late ninties it was required to go once a month. Still living in the radius, we go maybe twice a year. It's not in effect anymore.

Hi Belle, I didn't mean to imply that WC should live like paulpers, no one should live like that when they are doing the work of Jesus Christ. I think TWI should give them some type of incentive like other churches give their ministers. One of the churches I grew up in gave their minister a house to live in, a newer model car was bought for them etc. If they are giving their lives for service - they should be taken care of by the abs - that's what it's for - right. Distibute to the necessaties of the saints, no lack etc. DJS

On the other hand, the word does tell us to be wise, modest, and warns us of traps. So, what kind of traps are wrapped up in debt????? It's not a mortgage - unless it's above what you can afford. Because you could find yourself in the same boat with rent. <RENT IS DEBT - YOU OWE IT EVERY MONTH> I asked this question to friends of mine, who are very anal that debt is wrong, why is it considered debt to owe on a mortgage and not rent. They gave me advise from every senses angle and a few verses taked out of context. Then I asked - I owe my landlord every month, if I don't pay, it ruins my life same as a mortgage. Where in the word does it say that mortgage is bad but OWING rent is not debt???????? The response I got ............ no one will be surprised........... YOU WILL NOT FIND WERE IT SAYS THAT IN THE WORD _ NOT CLEARLY DEFINED LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!! Of course I asked, then why does TWI punish people and hold the word against and from people who don't agree? The answer......... Leadership gets inspiration from God on how to protect the body of christ. Then a lot of excuses came, and a lot of I don't knows and I'll ask my cabinet overseer when we get back to hq. Because we don't know this topic as well as we thought. ( I asked them if paying interest is so devilish why was the nation of Israel allowed to charge interest to outsiders ) ( They didn't know that the word said that) This happened a few years ago and they have chilled out some. We were very loving with them and just asked thought provoking, gentle, yet piercing questions. I THINK IT WOULD BE FUNNY IF EVERYONE BOUGHT A HOUSE AT THE SAME TIME----- DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD RETHINK THEIR POLICY THEN???????

The debt issue.......for most innies is still a very hot topic no matter which side you stand. Although, I have to say that it is starting to tilt more toward that the personal finances of a believer is no one's business. I personaly believe that if you commit yourself to be a minister then you should have no debt. Even in the old testament the Priests weren't allowed to own land. God will bless you back for your service, if God is really your main resource. As far as everyone else in leadership positions (or not) nothing is addressed to the church. It's kind of funny how in the old testament it was very clear what was exceptable. Then poof - there's nothing addressed to the church. I'll start another one - this one is long.

dmiller, That video is amazing, you've got a lot of talent. What group are you in now? I'm not at the point of leaving twi just yet, but I've deceided to atleast look into other things. djs

Hi Belle, Here's a start. I love a challenge in the word. I'm sure there's more we can come up with. Joshua 1:9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest. I John:3 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. There's also a website called crosswalk.com that you can access many translations in seconds on the computer - it's free. Enjoy this with a cup of coffee and pretty cookies. (I haven't figured out how to do the pretty pictures yet)

Hi Belle, Ps. 103 has always been a comfort to my heart. Just a few key phrases from that chapter. He is merciful and gracious Will not always chide.....has not dealt with us after our sins As high as the heavens are above the earth so great is his mercy..... As far as the east is to the west..... he removed our transgressions He remember our frame .....we are just dust. I'll work on the everywhere present part. This a fun topic - thanks

Sorry everyone, I just found a topic by the same name. It's late I'm going to bed zzzzzzzzzzzzz

I can't find out what happened in this case. Does anyone know where it was left??? It just seems to be hanging there -

My commenta are to Socks. WoW, I couldn't have said it better. I've had some of the same thoughts that you wrote about regarding the Trustees making things right - you just made it more complete for me. My husband and I have tossed around that there's a good possiblity that it will take the "old leadership" to die away before we see any real drastic change. A new generation!!!!! Kind of like the children of Israel and the Promised Land. They weren't allowed to go in because of their unbelief and unthankfulness toward God. It would be really nice to have the wrongs righted. I pray and SIT often that there will be changes like that and so does people in my fellowship - in the actual meeting. Other innies I speak to about this to do the same. Not everyone hates the people who went M&A or think they are still evil and all that crap. We (I) would like to see it righted from the top. Maybe it could happen - who knows. Bigger things have happened through out history. My comments are to Socks. WoW, I couldn't have said it better. I've had some of the same thoughts that you wrote about regarding the Trustees making things right - you just made it more complete for me. My husband and I have tossed around that there's a good possiblity that it will take the "old leadership" to die away before we see any real drastic change. A new generation!!!!! Kind of like the children of Israel and the Promised Land. They weren't allowed to go in because of their unbelief and unthankfulness toward God. It would be really nice to have the wrongs righted. I pray and SIT often that there will be changes like that and so does people in my fellowship - in the actual meeting. Other innies I speak to about this to do the same. Not everyone hates the people who went M&A or think they are still evil and all that crap. We (I) would like to see it righted from the top. Maybe it could happen - who knows. Bigger things have happened through out history.

I don't have a lot time right now, I'll have a lot more to say later. I have many deadlines to meet this week. I just wanted to address a few points. I haven't figured out how to do the quote thing yet. Most of my comments are to Belle but not all. In reference to "legal stuff" I was referring to LEGALISM. I'm sorry if I missed communicated. No they don't say anything about the law suits. I find my info. out on sites like this and a network of innes who do the same. Frankly, I don't know many businesses who publize any legal problems willingly. I'm not saying that in total defence of twi but just take look around at the companies you know have lawsuits. Usually, the only reason you know about them is that fact that the press got wind. Even Oprah's legal matters have been made confidential. In all honesty, I would like to find out about lawsuits from them, but from a business stand point after working in major corporations in finance, I understand why they don't. I'm not saying that is their reasoning - I don't know. In my first letter I don't recall saying that everything was perfect. Let me ask you a question - How have you changed in the last 20 yrs - 10 yrs - 5yrs. You've changed, everyone of us on this site has changed, can no one involved in twi change for the good ????? It takes time we are all doing major healing right now. I know people's lives were ruined I watched it first hand. I've heard of the rapes and pimp daddies - it's now common knowledge for the innes. Why didn't people do something before - it's about timing and knowing when to do something. You can learn this lesson from David. He knew when to hide and when to take it on. Why, because he listened to his heavenly father. It's about timing, wisdom, and common sense. Have you ever wondered what would more could have happened if things went differently. We don't know - it could have been much, much worse. We all want an apology too. Like most of you I'm not holding my breath either. As far as top leasdership I have seen major changes in the way things have been handled. It has been with love and great respect towards people. I think the reason there are no apologies coming forth is fear of lawsuits. (my opinion) I haven't seen the great domineering attitude of control. I haven't been asked in years if I'm in debt, to see my budget, schedule, or any personal business. We went to adv. sp. we were not asked if we had debt. (It is unclear right now if that is a guideline) I know it is for fel. co-or, wd and wc. I got in twi in the midwest and really didn't know top leadership. Then I moved into the 250 miles area. ( no, it is not mandatory to make a once a month visit anymore) Only in the last few years have I seen a big difference going there. The teaching are boring but it is very sweet and welcoming there. I have not always felt that way. We used to get the "stare right through you look" - like you weren't there. By staying long weekends there I have gotten to know some of the top leadership and others ( a little) it's a very different tune. They go out of their way to make people feel welcomed. Of course, if you go there to stir up Sxxt you will have security called - any company would protect themselves. I haven't seen the" really tight" security in a long time. But there has been local teenage vandilism as of late. There still needs to be a lot of change but as the saying goes "Rome was not built in a day". I may not stick around, but for now I see positve change - that gives me hope. Also, I'm not stupid I'll know when it's time to leave. At times, I have not went to fellowships for months because it sucked or gave ABS. For a while we didn't get the tapes or mag because for a long time they sucked. I just threw my money away. I can say they are both getting better not in huge amounts but getting better. (By the way, I never once was confronted about any of it. Nothing was said - like back a few years ago) I just came and went as I pleased. We still have people come and go as they please - it is not demanded to be a faithful, every fellowship believer, or don't come anymore. We have not been told to contact people. I think most of us are doing it on our own. We know the part we played in all the wrong that was done and seek forgiveness in many cases. Yes, a lot of us still have contact with people who have left. We don't keep it a secret, it's not a big issue anymore, atleast in my experience. In my personal area only, we have been encouraged, if we can to talk to friends of ours who have left and find out why. The point in doing that is to present it to HQ. Not to bring them back, although we are having a quite a few come back ( even M&A falsely accused of being homo). My fellowship is growing so fast and need to split soon. In other areas, they don't grow at all. You can see a marked difference in leadership, my observance is that these areas still have some legalism somewhere. The seeds you sow will bear fruit - it will be good or bad. Right. After talking to friends in these areas - things are starting to change, slowly but they are. The leadership is losing up. There are areas that are growing so fast they can't keep with it all. As far as the numbers go, wc wd etc. They have been really low for a while. They are slowly building positive things back in place and the bad name that these programs got are being replaced with good. By the way, My display name is my name. DJ then S for my last name - I did this so that it would be easy to remember. We say Christmas, Val Day etc. That was a stupid thing that got started. I even say create - look it up in the dictionary it has many different uses than "God Created" Do you want to know if the M&A are welcomed and the status removed - Let me ask this ....... What would be the point of you wanting to come back??????? Is it to cause trouble and be antagonistic?????? Then the answer will prob. be a resounding no. If you genuinely want to see what's going on and have a curious but cautioned attitude - I think I can honestly say "YES" you will be welcomed. How can I dare say that???? I've seen it happen. Some of you will scuff at this - but the one thing you can't dispute are my experiences. Much love to all - DJS ps I'd like to know exactly all the polices that lcm put in place that are still today, in cement. Thanks for the Valentine Cookies they look really pretty.

Yes, I think most of us have done the research/internet thing and we talk about what we find from time to time. I also discuss it with friends from other parts of the country openly. Some of their leadership are not so open but don't tell them what to do.

(Form an innie) Should you go back? That's a good question!!! My question to you is - how much healing have you done on your own???? Things are changing, not as fast as some would like, but it is. The truth is we, as a body as a whole - most of are going through our own healing processes. Somethings in a lot of ways are pretty anemic. Sunday Services and Way Mag's are pretty boring. Most of the really good teachers, people who knew how to do things well, left - with good reason. It left a lot of people holding the ball who had to learn how to catch real fast. Depending on where you live, it could be a good thing for you to return - or not. Some areas are little slower than others. There no longer is a systematic, regimented way of doing things. A lot is left up to the local areas to work in the way they need to, to meet the needs of their people. Just to let you know how some things have changed. HQ pays people salary for what they are worth and can live off grounds in a house they chose. They get paid - up to them when to take - vacations. They got retro retirement (and a current plan in place) They get med. insurance, can go to college while on staff, no one works over 46 hrs per week, inculding lunches. They can even have a side business. They don't have to stay in the dining hall for lunch time - they get to go anywhere they want to as long as they are back when luch is over. I openly discussed my concerns with my branch co-or a couple of weeks ago, in my fellowship, and I had a lot of them. We sat with everyone around and had a great time. It turned out my fellowship had some of the same concerns I did. EEWWW EEWWW my limb co-or has a pet - actually a large dog to be exact. On paid staff salary no less. I invite anyone to ask me questions as long as it is done in genuine love and concern. You wouldn't want to burned at the stake either. I've already done that to myself a few times. Before you or anyone goes back - please seek God to work out your own wholeness. You'll be welcomed but not pressured - we have people come and go as they please - we just love them and bless them when we can.

( From an innie ) This is how I see it now. I lived through all the anal stuff. I'm not blinded to what all happened. A lot happened to a lot of good people. For the people that stuck it out - well it was hard. BUT it is getting better. Almost all of the legal stuff is gone. The only beef I have is with the debt issue. IF...... owing a mortgage is wrong, it certainly doesn't say for the church to get in people's private biz. Depending on where you live things have gotten really good. My fellowship (twig) is awesome - we through the box out the door. There are still some areas where the legalism is there a little. It didn't get there over night - it's best to allow healing time for all involved. It does take time. It's almost like you have to go through the healing process just like the people who left. The hurt does hit eventually and at different degrees. BUT the healing IS taking place. I've made many apologizes in the last several years. In a lot of cases, it has taken for someone to hurt you like you've hurt someone, to really know how you've affected others. There's been a big softening. I haven't heard yelling, there are no more calls saying "we need to meet" for a long time now. If things come up we do it over dinner with mutal respect and great concern. At the end of the day it's left at "it's up to you" I'll help you just let me know how and when. I know it's hard to believe that this is true - espec. those of us who had to deal with mogfot for so long. As for the letter - those of you who got "m&A" remember this little scenario. You saw a "believer" somewhere out and about. They completely ignored you - right . You were "evil" not to be talked to, etc. Why now would someone who thought you were evil suddenly come around? Having gone through some of the same things the person in the letter wrote - I loved the people that undershep. me, I miss them and still love them, s.i.t .for them as I do ALL my family. Maybe, she didn't express it correctly, but she knows the way things were handled in the past were very wrong. Remember, we are healing at different degrees and slowly but surely - changing our thoughts back to the love of God and his word- not some MOGFART (I'm sorry mogfot). From a different prospective, djs