oldiesman

quote:

---

Do you think any normal young woman would VOLUNTARILY go off and have sex with lcm if he had been a bagger at the grocery store? Hell NO!

---

Perhaps, yes. If she wanted to have sex with him.

What you seem to be suggesting is, ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers didn't have the option to just say "no". They are ALL victims, regardless of whether they wanted it or not. They are ALL victims (of rape?).

I think this is as extreme as you can get. Adults that are not mentally ill can say "no", no matter what gender they are.

People are responsible for their actions.

quote:

---

Are adults responsible for their actions, yes. But these women were also highly coerced... physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually manipulated and preyed upon.

I'd say that relieves them of a great deal of the responsibility and places it squarely on the shoulders of the one doing the manipulating!!

---

The Highway,

I would say that whether an individual was highly coerced is a matter to be determined by the facts in that particular situation.

If you are claiming that ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers were so highly cooerced and manipulated to the point they were not responsible for their actions, then I would have to decline from that extreme viewpoint. However, I will agree that some fall in that category.

quote:

---

Even if she 'wanted' it, he being the 'spiritual one' should have said "NO Madame Not for me! I'm a minister of God." (this is hypothetical obviously!)

---

A La Prochaine,

Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But if the man doesn't do the right thing but instead gives in to his manly urges, why does it always have to be about power and control (which in the argument is like being compared to rape)?

This is the premise of this entire argument, that its ALWAYS about power and control in the male.

As I said, I don't doubt that happens; but saying it ALWAYS does is, in my opinion, rather extreme.

quote:

---

Let me pose this to you: A parent has sex with a child, who is responsible? A teacher has sex with a student...who is responsible? A 25 year old has sex with a 14 year old...are you going to tell me that is ok if the 14 year old Wants it?

---

Radar,

You are correct, children are not responsible for their actions.

But adults who are not mentally ill, are.

One of the major premises of the soul stealing article seems to be the following:

quote:

---

As with rape, a pastor's sexual or romantic involvement with a parishioner is not primarily a matter of sex or sexuality but of power and control.

---

Says who? Would it be at least a possibility that the pastor is having sexual relations because he's horny?

I don't doubt there are some cases like this, but I'd like to see the definitive proof that every sexual relation of a pastor/perishioner is about power and control.

What about the woman? what if she willingly wants it?

quote:

---

ok the bus is traveling along at a comfortably fast steady speed. it's dark outside and silent, the middle of the night

bus driver

wierwille

me

me all alone and scared

a few beers and total total zonker land

some old man talking about god and his wanker

slavery

---

I assume you told VPW not to touch you and he went ahead and did it anyway?

If that's the case, then you were his sex slave for a nite.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "always"; I'm sure there were a couple of exceptions.

I would also put children in that group; those who grew up in TWI and were forced to do certain things because of their parents, had no choice in the matter either...

quote:

---

It would be very difficult to prove that TWI actually or in fact did force anyone into their sphere of influence, especially under threating conditions. That would have to be a starting premise.

---

I agree fully.

The key element is that the possible various forms of slavery were always voluntary.

The door was always open...

quote:

---

I was never told that I needed to put that sticker on my car.

---

If you never were told this, perhaps you can get any and all monies reimbursed to you from the booting situation?

Check it out...

quote:

---

Has it occurred to you that PFAL doesn't have to be inerrant or God-breathed to be useful?

---

I was going to say that myself. PFAL doesn't have to be perfect, to still be a tremendous blessing to folks who want/need to hear great truths about God and Jesus.

Please refresh my memory but, didn't VPW teach in PFAL that if you don't know something, it's much better to say "I don't know", than say something false or something you "think" you might know, without really knowing?

I don't remember where I heard it, but I know I heard that teaching someplace from TWI-1.

quote:

---

WHY THEN.......do the twi/vpw/lcm defenders continue to stake their claims on a corporation that is "blessed by God?"

...

To me.......there's fungus among us.

---

Fresh,

Are you referring to folks who are still involved? I don't know of any, or hardly any that have posted here. What fungus? I wish there were more...I have a few questions myself..

quote:

---

Oldies, I hope we can meet in person someday or talk on the phone. It is not easy to summarize on a thread 25+ years in TWI, Way Corps, etc. There are no simple answers here. It was a gradual erosion. There were benefits and there were good people who were hurt badly and so unnecessarily

---

Hi John,

Thanks for the invitation to talk; that would be nice someday.

No doubt in my mind that at various times, folks were treated badly; to deny that would be nuts. However, I still don't accept the victim mentality propaganda that permeates Greasespot Cafe.

In my opinion, the "frog in the frying pan" analogy doesn't fit because it assumes that we (the frogs) were there to be cooked by an all-encompassing evil. Slowly, slowly we were being cooked...it was planned that way.

I still don't buy it...

There were other forces at work; not only the forces of evil in peoples lives...

Because the victim mentality approach won't allow any room for the godly, wonderful things we experienced. It can't, because it's fundamentally at cross purposes with it.

Some folks involved with TWI forgot; care to forget; prefer not to recollect; prefer not to be forthcoming about; the wonderful ministry we once were part of. You can't do that, and portray yourself as a victim, at the same time; the two are incompatible.

I guess the reason why I come to vehemently disagree with some threads, is because the premise BEGINS with TWI being an evil organization from the start (frog in the frying pan, etc..)...I guess if that's true, the rest all makes sense. But I still haven't bought into that idea.

Getting back on topic, I accept that TWI-2 became completely secluded...that's very obvious.

quote:

---

We were bullied mercilessly untill we made a decision one way or another...and God help you if you didn`t go corps...you were just a bump on a log at fellowship...unworthey of respect or friendship...just a worthless piece of crap...salt with no savor...a moron with no gratitude to God or the ministry that brought you his matchless word word...you were NOTHING!!!

---

Excuse me, but WHAT A CROCK!!

Qami,

Shame on you. You're comparing the Corps with people getting murdered?

The folks who died that day didn't know they'd be killed that day.

But the folks who signed up for the Corps, knew they were going on a program where they had to follow the direction of their coordinators/leaders. Was it possible you were subjected to fear and stress because that was part of the program, to OVERCOME fear and stress? Make you a stronger person?

It sounds to me like you're complaining that it was too tough....almost like signing up for the military, then complaining years later that they were too tough on you..

Hey, YOU SIGNED UP for it did you not?

And if you didn't like it the first few weeks, if it wasn't your thing, you could have left. Some did.

The unfortunate folks at the WTC who got killed couldn't leave, they were trapped and it was too late.

quote:

---

oldiesman, when people are subjected to conditions of fear and stress, instincts seem to overwhelm the thought process. Victims feel trapped, even if they are not. Options are not so clear. They become like a "deer in headlights." Why do you think bullies act like bullies? Because intimidation works on most people.

---

Here's what I think: when folks signed up to go in the Corps, they basically gave their lives to The Way Ministry.

YOU DECIDED TO DO THAT!

Not me, not them..YOU.

YOU DECIDED TO BE UNDER THE COMPLETE INFLUENCE OF, AND COMPLETE DIRECTION OF, OTHER HUMAN BEINGS...

Now years later, you talk about being victims, under fear and stress...

HELLO..who put you there?

YOU.

Accept it. It was YOUR decision.

quote:

---

The Corps training was set up to get you to quit thinking. Those who are left have given up thinking in exchange for the comfort of slavery.Galatians 4:9 says it all..they DESIRE to be in bondage. It is easier than thinking.

---

This is a profound statement indeed.

If this is true, and they "DESIRE" to be in bondage, should we not stop blaming the trustees for an inate DESIRE "to be in bondage"?

quote:

---

With no ACCOUNTABILITY......twi's trustees became/become self-imposing lords over innies. IMO all trustees are to be held accountable for such injustices.

---

It's my view that if/when folks were abused, they allowed themselves to be abused. The door was always open to leave. True, it was not a "democracy" by any stretch of the imagination. So what was the solution? LEAVE.

I think its more believable that most folks stayed so long (10, 15, 20, 25 years), to me anyway, because for them the benefits outweighed the "abuses".

quote:

---

-VPW once told me when I was about 15 "when it come to girls there's a famous rule called the 5 F's:

1. find em

2. finger em

3. feel em

4. f**k em

5. Forget em

---

LOL!

Georgio,

There was also another one...

"Ladies first, so you can check out her ***

Oops.

quote:

---

These people forced this PFAL class down people's throats...

---

Rottiegirl, unless someone was mentally retarded or a child, nobody forced PFAL down anyone's throats. It was a freewill decision. Folks need to accept responsibility for their actions.

quote:

---

I was doing fine going to fellowhip..for free. I was totally taken advantage of by being pressured into taking a class I didn't want or need, with money that I had worked and saved for a long time.

---

If you didn't want to take the class, you didn't have to. Lots of folks didn't.

quote:

---

SHARING the Word, should ALWAYS be free.

---

If this is true then anytime anyone buys a bible book or tape, they are fools for spending the money.

quote:

---

Would Jesus have approved of this? NO! Did God approve of this? I think it made Him madder than hell.

---

Thousands of folks were blessed from taking PFAL. Just the material on being saved by grace alone, was worth the little amount of money we spent on the class.

These are my feelings on it; it was money WELL spent.

The only point I would agree with you on, is if you were one of the unfortunate ones who had to pay $200 for the class. That was too much, IMO.

quote:

---

We've talked about VPW and his views on cancer before. He said people with cancer were possessed...

---

Um, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I never heard VPW say that.

I heard VPW say "all life is spirit, and cancer is life by itself" or something to that effect.

Where did this idea surface that everyone who gets cancer has to be possessed? Not from VPW. If so, chapter and verse please...

quote:

---

Why pay to hear about your God?????

---

Why pay to go to school? Why pay for a class of any kind? Because people are entitled to receive the fruit of their labor, no matter what they do, whether teaching a bible class or selling soap. This is a biblical principle.

It takes money to do things. Time is money. Buying equipment, paying salaries for work, employing folks to generate books and tapes, etc. etc.

I recently purchased a tape set from CES. Quite good. Were they wrong for charging me a fee to hear biblical teachings?

If you want to debate whether PFAL was too much money at certain times, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

quote:

---

One may reasonably conclude, therefore, that PFAL is God-breathed ONLY insofar as it agrees with the Bible, ALL of which is God-breathed. If and when PFAL disagrees with the Bible, the Bible is always given pre-eminence (how can it be otherwise)?

---

So true. So true.

If memory serves, didn't VPW say this in a different way, in PFAL? something like "when the Word is rightly-divided, you have the word of truth ... and when the Word is wrongly-divided, you have error?

Personally, I'm willing to believe that some of PFAL has been wrongly-divided. Hey Wierwille was human after all...

Mike,

Please don't say "Christians Believe The Preposterous" is God-Breathed.

I have serious issues with that...

quote:

---

....God is not limited by organizations, or individuals. That’s all I was saying.

...

However, when you say, "in a manner they will come to appreciate", are you speaking of TWI, as the manner used by God, that they will come to appreciate? Or are you referring to God’s very own manner of tenderness, grace and mercy? It makes a big difference on whether I agree with the second half of your statement or not.

---

Hi JesseJoe,

I'm not sure what you mean about "God isn't limited by organizations or individuals". Isn't that the way people initially learn about and believe the gospel, through others preaching?

Consider these verses:

Rom 10:14 -- How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 -- And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

You said if TWI-1 wasn't around, there'd be others? Which ones? Jehovah's witnesses? Roman Catholic? others? These other groups didn't work for me; TWI-1 did.

quote:

---

So why should he be expected to mention how great Jesus is? It's separate froim the point he is making.

---

Oakspear,

I agree. This is the SECOND thing we agree on!