oldiesman

What would this thread be without a piece from the master himself Mr. Mozart:  (9 minutes)

Following along with the mandate of converting "Israel" I believe these couple of scriptures point to and reveal the Upper Room and outpouring of the Holy Ghost:

Ezekiel 39:29
Zechariah 12:10

It's also crucial to understand that Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.   There is no other future plan God has made with "Israel".  

Jesus was the plan all along.

That worked, thanks!

Rocky, I went to watch the video you posted but am getting the message to sign in to confirm I'm not a BOT (below), that I have gotten repeatedly before while signed in.

Hopefully Raf can fix... thanks..

Tell it Ringo!
 

John Adams letter to Abigail -- July 3, 1776 (excerpt):

"I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more.

You will think me transported with Enthusiasm but I am not. -- I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. -- Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will triumph in that Days Transaction, even although We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not."

One of the best TV shows of all time:
 

On 6/28/2025 at 6:07 PM, Charity said:

My rhetorical question is why didn't God make himself and his true word known directly without any middlemen and then prevent it from being changed, suggesting in a fantastical way the threat of a lightning strike upon anyone who tried to do.  

 

I'd like to take a stab at answering this even though it's rhetorical.

In a word, experience.

God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (each individual persons) desire people to love them each personally from the heart.       What do you do when you love someone?    You talk to them.   Ask them things.    Spend time with them, think about what they want and try to do what pleases them, because you love them and want to make them happy.   And they in turn love you back.

All of this takes time, energy, patience, persistence, and faith.   And at times, suffering and inconvenience.      I believe this is how a relationship is formed with these great persons without any middleman.  

6 hours ago, Raf said:

My apologies to you personally.

I thought I was clear that this was as a species, not a criticism directed at you personally. I thought I was as far from singling you out as I could possibly be.

But it is inherent in our opposing views that we will occasionally step on each other's toes.

So allow me to rephrase, please, in a way that does not insult anyone directly or indirectly:

 

Again with my apologies, is that better?

Generously sufficient, thank you!    

Can you explain further what you mean by "quantitative immeasurable"?    That brings back a memory of a blood test with my "quantitative covid antibody results" i.e. numerical antibody count.  LOL   

34 minutes ago, Raf said:

But in our arrogance as a species, we imagine ourselves to be an exception.

Hold on a minute...  I don't think (or hope) any of us in this discussion on either side is being arrogant about their beliefs.

47 minutes ago, Charity said:

If you go over to the doctrinal subforum, there is the thread "Salvation Universal or Not?" where I shared John Schoenheit's Appendix 4 from his REV bible.  It's basically the written form of the doctrine he teaches in the tape.  

His point #6 is called "The 'immortal soul' is not biblical; the Bible never says the soul is immortal," if you are interested in reading it.

I appreciate and have no dispute what John is teaching, only adding an opposite opinion above.    Put in legal terms, for me; let's say I'm still in the "discovery" phase of the argument...

12 hours ago, Charity said:

I need to correct the above post.  After listening to the tape again, John Schoenheit did not use the phrase "right" translation, he said a "good" translation.  

After watching the tape, I have to say his argument is a good one.   But I need to pray about and further study his teaching but must also include St. Thomas Aquinas' opposite take that the soul is immoral.   In sum, Aquinas has argued that the soul (a spiritual entity) cannot be destroyed by fire (a physical entity).    Here's some of what Aquinas argued:

AI Overview

I was thinking more along the lines of accurately defining the Old and New Covenants using objective/subjective standards which appears to be the topic of this thread.

6 minutes ago, waysider said:

It all boils down to being a geopolitical issue.

HERE

How does one talk about this issue only biblically then?   That's what I'm trying to do.   If you can develop some rules of the game that would satisfy everyone it would be terrific.  

7 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

How does one know, if something good happens in their life, that it was the result of another offering prayers for them? 
How do you know when you offer prayers for a neighbor that the prayer was actually answered? 
I used to offer perfect prayer, (SIT) for my family and those in my fellowship everyday, our countries leadership, and TWI leadership. They all got sick like anyone else in the world, two died in a car accident, and VPW somehow managed to get possessed my a devil spirit and died of cancer.
My prayer didn’t seem to make much difference at all.

It may not, if it's not God's will.   Jesus prayed in the garden "my Father, if this chalice may not pass away but I must drink it; Thy will be done". 

7 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

There are over 45,000 different Christian religions in the world, so if you accept that Christianity is the correct religion, how do you know you have picked the right version? How have you eliminated the other 44,999 as not being God’s accurate version of hell?

https://www.christianwebsite.com/how-many-denominations-of-christianity-2024/

 

How do I know?   I don't.    I picked a Catholic version (notice I say "a" because there's a schism in catholicism as well) because a friend thought I'd be wanting to return after decades of absence.    I took the RCIA course of her church, enjoyed it, and was confirmed.

Then I strayed from that and joined a staunch traditional, Latin version.    Both guns blazing.    It's what I'm doing right now but I'm not opposed to checking out other versions.   I've been to other versions and it's all interesting.    I'm even open to attending a Muslim meeting if a friend invited me to one.

This is not political... please follow...

With the U.S. bombing of Iran, I've gotten into a couple of debates with Jews who believe God gave them that land for eternity and American Christians are supposed to understand that and acquiesce.  (Old Covenant)

However some Christians (myself) believe that Jesus' crucifixion, burial, resurrection, ascension and glory began a New Covenant wherein Jews who believe in Christ are no more Jews but now members of the body of Christ along with the Gentiles who also believe.  

The Old has been supplanted by the New (according to my belief).   Here are the questions:

Would it be accurate to say that both of these beliefs are subjective?

Or, is the Jewish religion really the objective one, and the Christian religion the subjective (being an adaptation of the first)?

5 hours ago, waysider said:

Why would God need a witness?

Maybe it has to do with God giving specific officials in the church the power to forgive sins, but it's only an observation that maybe has some connection with that.  

Had to post this one... too funny...
 

26 minutes ago, Charity said:

Danger, sin, egregious sin, ungodly lifestyle, commands of God, hardened hearts, salvation maintenance, suffering, hell, ... Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to believe.  (tangled web = a complex, difficult, and confusing situation or thing)  

Yeah, decided not to go down this rabbit hole again (rabbit hole = a bizarre, confusing, or nonsensical situation or environment, typically one from which it is difficult to extricate oneself)  

"What has been seen cannot be unseen, what has been learned cannot be unknown."  Cynthia Woolf.  

Entangle me once, shame on you...entangle me no more, shame be gone.  

I'll stop now.  

The antidote is quite simple: go to the confessional... make a thorough and honest confession, then the priest will absolve sins and you're back in the state of grace with God (in TWI terms... back "in fellowship with God").   As we know this differs from the TWI version.   But in Catholic and some other Christian traditions, a priest acts as a representative of Christ and is able to forgive sins.   This is not the priest's own power but a conferral of God's forgiveness through Christ.  The priest through the power given to the church acts as an instrument of God's mercy.      The practice stems from Jesus's giving authority to forgive sins to the Apostles, who passed this authority down through apostolic succession to priests.   In this manner, Catholics believe that when a priest absolves sins, it is ultimately God who forgives.   NOTE:  IMO, I consider this method more substantial and ultimately valid than simply asking God for forgiveness without a witness.