oldiesman
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Posts posted by oldiesman
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15 hours ago, Raf said:
See, that's my problem. If it's history, it's not credible and the only reason to discuss it is politics.
If we're talking about doctrine, there's really nothing debatable about it. Yeah, God said this land is your land. Doctrinally. But history can't even document the existence of Abraham, never mind God. And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders.
Oh, but THEIR Great Spirit is not God. Got it.
What's your take on Ward's offering? Specifically, the completed works of Christ biblically ended the old covenant and the "land grant"?
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1 minute ago, Raf said:
This thread is inherently political. Our only reason to examine the question at hand is steeped in politics.
All I'm after is the biblical...honest... have friends on both sides of the argument and am sincerely torn between the two. Raf can you offer your biblical wisdom?
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11 hours ago, oldiesman said:
I've got mixed feelings about this topic. One the one hand, yes the old testament teaches that it's a perpetual land grant. On the other hand, numerous other Christians believe Jesus ended this prophecy with the church of the body which is comprised of Jew and Gentile, the modern-day Israel. Preterists do not believe in the [perpetual] land grant and I don't believe TWI did either.
Anyway here's the land grant view: A Royal Land Grant (jerusalemprayerteam.org)All comments welcome.
Here is an offering from a friend who shares the Preterist view on this topic:
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On 11/11/2023 at 6:04 PM, Rocky said:
Historian Kristin Du Mez responds to the question from the Holy Post podcast. Kristin has written Jesus and John Wayne.
There's no real way for me to judge without experiencing her church for 6-12 months and see for myself, but she seems to believe in predestination i.e. everything is in place, ordained by God regardless of one's faith? i.e. Jesus paid for the sins of mankind therefore everyone is saved regardless? She believes in the Nicene Creed but is that alone enough to be saved? Again, need more exposure I think.
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I've got mixed feelings about this topic. One the one hand, yes the old testament teaches that it's a perpetual land grant. On the other hand, numerous other Christians believe Jesus ended this prophecy with the church of the body which is comprised of Jew and Gentile, the modern-day Israel. Preterists do not believe in the land grant and I don't believe TWI did either.
Anyway here's the land grant view: A Royal Land Grant (jerusalemprayerteam.org)All comments welcome.
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This one was easy for me:
"The Way reportedly teaches that members will suffer harm or death if they go into debt"Here's one from me:
"The Way reportedly teaches that members will suffer harm or death if they do not tithe or abs."It can scare the living crap out of someone who takes this seriously.
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6 hours ago, Raf said:
I mean, it's a Bullinger doctrine. Surely TWI didn't originate it.
I wonder if it goes way way back to Jesus. One of the biggest is "lead us not into temptation"?
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On 11/4/2023 at 8:24 AM, Raf said:
Jokes aside, I think the simplest expression of my thought is:
The idiom of permission was not the intent of the original writers. It only became necessary when the character of Yahweh developed into someone who would never do what earlier scriptures clearly said he did.
Raf, your thoughts please. This might be idiom-related? When the scripture says "I come quickly" (Rev. 22:20) and "this generation shall not pass till all these things be done" (Matt. 24:34), what do you think is the most accurate interpretation out there? Thx.
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3 hours ago, penworks said:
Update: There are only 4 FREE copies left. Get yours today. Details in the blog.
Thank you
3 hours ago, penworks said:Update: There are only 4 FREE copies left. Get yours today. Details in the blog.
Thank you Charlene for your kind offer.
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10 hours ago, Ham said:
I wonder if anyone here has lived "in the moment". Time and space kind of irrelevant, just melting away- it happens to people with absolutely zero drugs involved at times.
the catholic mass has been described as "being there" at that very moment of the crucifixion... time travel... still trying to wrap my head around that one!
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16 hours ago, Rocky said:
Is this a STORY of a series of events told from the human perspective?
How did Wierwille rationalize it, if he recognized the passage at all?
How do we TODAY rationalize it, now that we have pulled our attention and recognition to it?
You've got me. Knowing VPW he likely would have said "figure of speech"? Catholics believe it literally was a miracle.
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6 hours ago, WordWolf said:
That does seem to be a course of action more likely to produce results. The main complaint to that would be that it actually requires WORK- and a lot of people would rather do things that require no effort. There's a reason "slacktivism" is now a word, also- that's activism that doesn't actually require someone to DO anything. I do think Christians are better-served focusing on all that they have in common, and all that matters, rather than focus on differences. That's not exactly an opposite, but efforts to do that would certainly help to make "churchianity" by any name harder to find, and I consider that a good thing.
Emo Phillips once told a joke I've ripped off here before. I will adapt it slightly and retell it.
I was walking along a bridge one night, and I saw a man standing along the edge, as if he was going to jump. I called out to him, to stop him from jumping, at least long enough to get my camera ready. He looked up and, you've heard of 'the Elephant Man'? Well, this man had a face like a horse. My heart went out to him instantly. "Why the long face?" He said that people always made fun of him, and that nobody loved him. "God loves you." "You think so?" "Do you really think that a handful of atoms millions of years ago would possibly have the sense of humor to make you look like this?" He thought, and said, "You know, I do believe in God." "Really? Are you a Christian? A Jew?" "A Christian," he said. "Me, too. Catholic or Protestant?" "Protestant," he said. "Me, too. What franchise?" "Baptist." "Baptist? Me, too. Northern or Southern Baptist?" "Northern Baptist." "Me, too. Northern Conservative or Northern Liberal Baptist?" "Northern Conservative Baptist." "Me, too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist or Northern Conservative Reformed Baptist?" "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist." "Me, too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?" "Great Lakes Region." "Me, too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1893 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I shouted "Die, heretic!" and I pushed him off the bridge.
I appreciate the joke, but it makes me sad when I see Christians who remind me of it. I'm pleased to say that happens rarely as I go about and live life. Most Christians I've met face to face have been pretty level-headed and don't have a problem helping others to one degree or another.
By way of comparison, it's interesting that someone who cares MORE about their specific denomination might indeed help others- but that's generally either because they're following direct orders, or because the context of helping someone in that instance is one that gives their denomination a lot of credit. They'll help others so long as their group gets the glory. I'm also surprised when I see a "church" building where the name is on the side- and the name of the pastor/leader/fuhrer is in even bigger letters.
Excellent joke! My "mother in catholicism" once told me she thought Luther should have stayed in the catholic church despite all the hypocrisy, imperfections and impurities. So was Luther protesting primarily out of self-interest? Still working that one out in my head! "Slacktivism" is a new word for me ... 'keyboard warrior syndrome" maybe? I'm ok with keyboard warriors as long as it's not the only thing one does but only a tool or way to do much more as the need arises.
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On 10/18/2023 at 2:53 AM, WordWolf said:
The word "churchianity" is certainly not a popular word outside of twi circles. In fact, I just discovered that the Merriam-Webster English Dictionary is the only collegiate dictionary that includes it, among those of which I'm aware. (It's not in the American Heritage, nor the Cambridge.)
In twi practice, it's used as a general insult to all forms of Christianity outside of twi, period. In ex-twi circles, it's frequently used in exactly the same way- as a general insult to all Christian groups other than twi and ex-twi, period. It's among the trite phrases thrown around like saying Trinitarians pray to an oil-can.
Should we even use the word "churchianity"? If we should use it, what, exactly, should we mean by it?
Thx for posting. I too think it's a general insult to other Christians. I've seen it happen firsthand: Catholics disparage protestants; Protestants disparage catholics. Instead of focusing on what we have in common; we bark insults. I've since learned that the only true way you really know is get involved with the group you think is wrong and experience for yourself -- and maybe even try to teach them the better way if you're so inclined.
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17 hours ago, Rocky said:
Is not the topic of cults inherently related to the characteristics of and interaction of social animals (humans), groups, and that of leaders?
Why would you not be interested in imagining, or exploring evolution of cults, social animals, groups, and leadership? Just asking.
I think this is a very valid question because there is inherent power in groups. The Catholic church talks about the mystery of the "communion of saints". Haven't quite figured out that one yet but it's a topic to explore.
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23 hours ago, penworks said:
How would you like to hear that about your mother?
Most sickening. Thx for sharing.
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36 minutes ago, Charity said:
My misunderstanding then oldiesman - I thought when you said that the phrase "father in the word" was powerful, you were referring to how vp used it, which led me to think that your being encouraged to "go back there" meant twi. I connected the dots incorrectly - thank you for the clarification.
YW, and thanks for sharing.
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11 hours ago, WordWolf said:
For the benefit of the other readers, I'm going to attempt to fairly translate what Oldiesman said. (Whether or not I agree with him.)
He said that expression and image- "Father in The Word" was a powerful image and made an impact. As such, he uses a variation of that expression- "mother in Catholicism"- for the woman who encouraged Oldiesman to return to Catholicism.
I don't think he meant to be misunderstood- I think I understood him just fine- but he might have been just a little bit clearer in his communication.
Yes. Rocky and WordWolf hit the nail on the head... my good friend is my "Mother in Catholicism" who I thank for and encouraged me to go back there after decades. I was baptized catholic... as a youngster participated but then broke with them when my parents split.. sorry for the confusion.
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38 minutes ago, penworks said:
Can you tell I'm worked up this morning? I'm feeling like this because this week I got more messages from victims of Wierwille's insanity, either in the old days or recently in an off-shoot spawned by Wierwille's twisted beliefs and practices.
Can you share what happened?
38 minutes ago, penworks said:You may know about the phrase we all used (and MANY innies and off-shoot believers still use): "Dr. Wierwille is our father in the Word." That was so ingrained in many of us (not all) that it locked us into dependence on him, trapped us in a stage of unquestioning obedience to whatever he said the Bible said to do.
Yes. It was powerful. So powerful that I use it today with my Catholic "mother in Catholicism" who encouraged me to go back there.
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11 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Who is the preacher teacher in the opening 3 minutes?
Dave Craley
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A long, long time ago... will never forget the first time I set foot on HQ... hitchhiked from Emporia (6 Corp), landed in the BRC.
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On 9/24/2023 at 9:21 PM, Rocky said:
I realize GSC doesn't condemn those who no longer believe in God.
But I figure there are still followers of Wierwille's ministry who might benefit from this (probably quite salient) reflection.
Yes. A great friend of mine, now deceased, was once a staunch catholic, an altar boy too, but because of actions of priests he experienced through the years, was chilled away. And of course we know those who've been hurt in TWI. Some leave the faith, and some stick with it. Who is right? Who knows? Jesus have mercy on our souls.
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On 9/26/2023 at 3:16 PM, So_crates said:
We were told we would manifest the power of God. How many do you know really did? How many healing and miricles are you aware that news of such didn't come from a friend of a friend (a ministry urban legend) ?
You see, the truth of the matter is that we were never meant to manifest the power of God, to become successful. Because if we ever did manifest that power we would become to Independent and, in Saint Vic's mind, might no longer need him. So it was to his benefit to keep us in a cycle of failure which would keep us dependent on the ministry.
You would think God would want you to succeed and be a shining example of his love. Yet, the ministry was based on you failing.
I believe we did manifest the power of God in TWI but of course the gifts/ manifestations were up to the individual believer's own faith and action demonstrating God's gifts; then whoever saw the fruit would see the confirmation of that truth. To confirm miracles in TWI were genuine, has to come from the individual believers' own experiences and not hearsay. I've heard of a couple of things but the most telling were my own experiences. It must always be remembered that these experiences are gifts from God the Father Almighty, at God's option. Yes we believe first, but still is God's option to bring it to pass. These experiences are evident in faith-based churches and even charismatic Catholic churches. Regarding laying on of hands, prayers and healings: the catholic church close to where Iive would put TWI to shame how aggressive they are.
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On 8/10/2023 at 2:11 AM, Rocky said:
Together, these descriptors equate to love. IMO Oh, and critical thinking skills too.
Btw, WWJD????????
Inclusion must have its limits otherwise it tends to do the opposite of what it's designed to do. Example: "Lia Thomas".
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12 hours ago, Charity said:
I listened to the radio version waysider provided. It was a great story about the unselfishness of love between two people whose love lasted a lifetime. Very heartwarming. Thanks.
Yes it was. Another high note of compassion was the gambling boss who could have cleaned him out but instead let him have his money back.
Israel -- A Royal Land Grant or Modern Day Religous Hoax?
in Matters of Faith
Posted
Thx Raf for your opinion. I'm leaning to the preterist view, i.e., Christ's completed work eventually established the 'body of Christ', the true modern-day Israel, inhabited by both Jew and Gentile believers in Christ-- that negates the old covenant of Israel under Judaism. The preterist belief also is shared by some very strict Catholics who have been described as 'partial-preterists' by the preterists themselves. Some trad Catholics still believe that Jews and Gentiles who haven't accepted Christ as Lord and Savior are destined to hell because of original sin. Am working on a short video of someone sharing that viewpoint that can be posted here in a few days.
BTW here is Ward's "letter to his Dad" concerning Darby, if anyone is interested:
A LETTER TO MY DAD CONCERNING JOHN NELSON DARBY ON ROMANS 11-Preterism, Darby, and eschatology and Preterist soteriology concerning the second coming of Christ in the clouds; Preterism and Preterist eschatology, Darby, the rapture and prophecy from a preterist perspective