oldiesman

6 hours ago, GeorgeStGeorge said:

Oldies,

You want the "Name That Flick" thread.  It would also be OK in "Movie Mash-up," but probably not best in this thread.

George

Thx George, posted one just now...

"Jamie, these Indians are dying... won't be long before there are that many left."

4 minutes ago, waysider said:

Only if it's in agreement with Way doctrine.

and other churches... hence.. all the thousands of denominations...

9 minutes ago, waysider said:

I would suggest you refer to the laws that detail the specific parameters of what constitutes sexual abuse.

All I asked was if there were any more details.  Is that ok with you?

8 minutes ago, waysider said:

In PFAL, VPW proclaims the Bible to be the revealed word and will of God. To emphasize the importance of this, he stresses that the world is unaware of this fact. (the greatest secret) He then goes on to say that the Bible, as we know it, is not accurate.  So, which is it? Is it the revealed word and will of God or is it a book that's inaccurate? This is all (if I remember correctly) in the very first session of the class. Oh, but wait, "I know how to interpret it to make it accurate."  "But, don't you interpret it yourself because it can't be interpreted."  I wonder what life would have been like if I had just given some serious thought to the obvious contradictions in what he was saying.

I feel exactly the same.   In fact if memory serves didn't he say that "we (TWI) does the same thing as everyone else."  i.e. interpret it as well.    So that means its ok to have a private interpretation?    

27 minutes ago, waysider said:

only?

Right.   Any specific details of what occurred, what happened.   Is that not ok with you that I ask?

8 hours ago, chockfull said:

From my recollection the vast majority of offshoots were literally kicked out from TWI for various unjust reasons usually to do with little peoples ego and need for control.  So it actually would be in the Ways ball court with making reparations and apologies or re in statements known and communicated.

To date I have yet to hear Way leaders publicly be accountable for anything they say or do.  They are simply never wrong in their own eyes.  This seared conscience prevents the good hearted from considering returning.  Whether or not it is due to over reliance on advice from attorneys is really irrelevant.

Yes, true.   Regarding doctrine, dogma etc... being 'never wrong' or not wrong was/is common but not exclusive to twi, as it's common among churches, and the result are all the denominations.   But if the offshoots are of the same primary mindset and beliefs i.e. belief of the basic doctrines yet schisms remain doesn't it make more sense to come together and leave the lesser disputes to the trash can?    Remember from PFAL, VPW said something like there were over 4000 Christian denominations?   Last time I googled there were many more today, and that can't be God's desire to get more divisions can it?    Products of man's egos?     

I remember many years ago there was a thread that allowed someone to write a phrase from a film and someone guessed what the film's name was.   Can that be done here?

12 minutes ago, penworks said:

it's all in the attached PDF.

Yes saw that thx..  but was there any information other than "sexual abuse" only?    

15 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Regarding what I see as scripturally errant that the devil has the ability to have people born of the seed of the devil, like the heavenly Father God has the ability to have followers of Jesus Christ to be born of the Holy Spirit with what can be called a new birth. Yes, the devil with demons can possess people when they are deceived enough. However, when they see God’s love and Jesus Christ in a favorable way instead of being deceived with steal, kill and destroy or turn crazy. They could change. People can change like the Apostle Paul changed from being a hateful Pharisee to being the best teacher of the New Testament. The demons were not created through Satan or the devil. Instead they were created by God as angels with them changing while wanting authority even above God, the creator. This is obviously a bad attitude.

Using my very good biblical study software program there is no verse in the book of Genesis at least in the New King James Version that has the word serpent in the same verse as the word seed. There is no phrase in any version of the bible at least that I have the time to research that has the phrase “seed of the serpent”. Perhaps the only way TWI could see this is if they did their own biblical version. Regarding the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Mathew chapter 12, Jesus was speaking to hateful Pharisees that opposed Jesus Christ. The Pharisees instead of being service oriented like Jesus Christ was and is, instead they wanted authority and rulership in their religion. When Jesus Christ was helpful while healing people and even casting out a demon from a man that was blind and mute without the ability to see and speak. The Pharisees accused Jesus Christ of casting out a demon with Beelzebub who the Pharisees religiously saw as the chief ruler of the demons. Jesus Christ corrected their stupid belief while explaining to the Pharisees that the demons would only be divided or against the devil or demons if they did this, while being in opposition to themselves. Then Jesus Christ forgave them for opposing himself, Jesus Christ. However, opposing the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven because to have eternal life in the future, humanity needs a new spiritual body instead of only a physical body with its decay while our physical bodies are not eternal.

Agree with 99% what you wrote -- there appears to be no direct reference so it's a TWI assumption based on scripture building.  One observation using PFAL:  God was speaking to the serpent when He said "thy seed" and there were no chapters or verses in the original. 

On 8/3/2022 at 1:40 PM, Pete said:

Anyone know anything about the Yvette Vozzo versus Michael Minnetta child sexual abuse lawsuit?

First time hearing... what was the allegation?

5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

False dilemma.

If the ONLY two positions POSSIBLE are-  the Bible can only be understood exactly as stated in twi

or

the Bible is completely unreliable and useless

and no other positions are even possible,

then it's no wonder ex-twi people often jump to the second position after leaving twi.  If they think those are the only 2 possibilities, and they saw the first one failed, then they'd think the answer could only be the second one. 

 

I was raised Roman Catholic.  I came to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism lacked the answers I needed.  (I still think that based on the answers I needed then.)   Having been brought up to think the Roman Catholic Church was the be-all and end-all of Christianity, I concluded that, if the RCC didn't have my answers, no other Christians would, either. 

It's the same sort of thinking that moves some ex-twi to abandon Christianity.  If they think ONLY twi had answers, and saw how deficient twi was, then that conclusion is to be expected.

 

I suspect clinging too dogmatically to ANY denomination, group, etc would produce the same result eventually, but groups like twi set one up for an epic head-on crash with reality.

Agree...   putting "God in a Box" is what I refer to it today.   But it's not exclusive to TWI, or RC; I think it's what many churches do but the reality is God is everywhere present and can be found elsewhere than one's box if one allows themself to look for it.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Memory degradation is what I fight.

"Forget not all His benefits" is a command we should learn from and implement in our lives systematically. If we don't obey it, then all the memory of His benefits will erode.

Circumstances and false evidence, discouraging evidence pile up all the time, and at the same time the memory of all the benefits of God erodes unless refreshed.  All the original reasons to believe can be slowly forgotten if the natural memory degradation is not fought.

I think it's even simpler than that... I think it's natural knowledge vs. spiritual knowledge.   Carnal vs. spiritual.  And there's reason in both of them.

On 2/17/2023 at 12:30 PM, skyrider said:

Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING.

When the mind is free from twi-censorship.... questions flow freely.  In my opinion, one begins to realize how many more questions he/she has pent up inside the crevices of this "renewed mind."  LOL.  A healthy mind is a questioning mind.

Did wierwille and company really think that we would "stay on the pfal-farm" a lifetime.... repeating its mantra as an invocation to this mythical, pfal-god?  How insane is THAT?  Only a narcissist could ever imagine concluding such a scenario for his followers.  Same goes for all of their "advanced" study classes.  Most all of these classes have been redone or tweaked over the years and "The Way Tree" class was completely discarded.  Thank you Johnnie Townsend for that class... NOT.  As so many posters have said.... such drumbeating of repetition is insanity.

Some question wierwille/twi only to a certain point.... and then stop.  That's NOT empowering, that's not freedom.  They are STILL tethered to certain aspects of twi's conditioning.  It doesn't matter if they exit twi or not.... they are still way-brained by indoctrination.

Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING.  

Try it.  You'll like it.

 

 

Agree... GSC IS free from censorship and thereby empowering.   I wonder if today's TWI leaders actually read what's written here and try to use that knowledge to make TWI a better place?

Regarding the offshoots... my feeling is they would do better to all go back to TWI and try to make it a better place.   If it's all the same doctrine and has value... then continue to believe and act the principles taught from PFAL and WALK IN LOVE with a group that can use it.      

On 9/21/2009 at 9:55 AM, penworks said:

I disagree. Here's why.

I understand how some people may think The Way was good “in the old days” and somehow “got off track” in later years. But I take issue with this line of thinking. I call it deluded nostalgia: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition. What exactly is that condition people are craving? I was involved from 1971-1987 and I don’t crave any of it. But I figure I’d pitch in my two cents here.

Frankly, I think it appears to be nostalgia for small fellowships with rock music or old hymns “corrected to be accurate” with Way doctrine, simple teachings (I guess), and camaraderie with others who thought like we did, and learning “what the Bible says.” On the surface, these things seem fairly harmless. But when I really think about the “old TWI days,” and these activities, I come up with some concerns:

1. The simplistic idealism that we could save the world with cut and dry Bible answers

2. The lack of mature dealings in the world. I was addressed as a child and kept from growing up while in the Corps and afterwards,

3. The gross neglect of my critical thinking faculty

4. The fact we were supposed to sell the PFAL class to people in order for VP to approve of our lives

5. The issue of whether we were “helping people” by using tools belonging to VP’s brand of fundamentalism

6. As far as I know, some still think they helped people with “the Word.” But what exactly is “The Word?” It’s very vague to me. My understanding is that when a phrase is used, there’s a definition for it somewhere. I don’t know of one for “The Word.” It is a phrase thrown around as if we all know what it means. This reminds me of the fairytale about the Emperor’s new clothes. The fact was: Emperor was not wearing any clothes. I don’t think anyone knows what The Word is.

7. Suffice it to say here, the usual explanation by TWI people and former TWI people for what “The Word” is goes something like this: you have to “use certain keys to research to discover what the original Word was.” Whose keys to research? How come we so readily accepted VP’s which he took from various other people who were fundamentalists? If it were so simple to know “The Word,” how come so many diverse interpretations persist?

But back to the good old days. Let’s say the “good old Way days” were good after all, although this is hard for me to fathom. What exactly is being referred to by this claim? IMO, VP created some sense of community with some people for awhile, but what was that based upon? The way I see it, it was based on an agreement that VP’s teachings were God’s Word, on the commitment to the common cause of VP’s delusion of “moving The Word over the World,” and on a simple love for other people - as long as they obeyed what VP said was The Word. If they didn’t, at the very least they were not as spiritual as we were; at the very worst they were “born of the seed of the devil.”

Let’s not forget, however, that this conditional camaraderie came at a price: It was held together by a patriarchal system fraught with deception and power struggles, not to mention rampant sexual, fiscal, and emotional abuse.

In my view, wishing for “the good old days of The Way” denies the nature of the group itself – a fundamentalist, narrow-minded, anti-Christian movement. Why do I say it is anti-Christian? Because people were used as a means to an end. What was the end? Believe that what VP taught was the truth. Evangelize. Sell PFAL classes. Behave according to what The Way leadership dictated.

Nostalgia for the old days also seems to deny the fact that from its inception, the cult was engineered by V.P. Wierwille, who claimed, like Paul in the New Testament, that he heard an audible voice from a monotheistic God adopted from another culture from thousands of years ago (or the voice of Jesus, as in Paul’s case) that no one else heard. This raises all sorts of issues too complex to get into here I think.

While I met many good people whose kindness made me feel loved, during my TWI years, VP’s teachings, such as telling me I was “more than a conqueror” did not help me resolve problems I brought into The Way with me. For awhile, it engendered a positive attitude in me but it did not produce a healthy self image or tolerance, understanding and compassion for others who might not agree with what I believed. I think the doctrines in many instances only instilled a good deal of denial about myself, the good in the world, other cultures, and denial about what it means to be human.

When I first took PFAL, at 18 years old, I certainly was gullible to The Way’s “answers” but the human brain is not even fully developed until 23 or 24 years old so that’s part of this scenario, too. But I also readily admit that I consciously turned a deaf ear to people who warned me not to get involved.

Not only did I make grave errors in judgment when getting involved with TWI, but I was seduced by big fat claims about the nature of the system I was in. It claimed to be a biblical research ministry but it is extreme fundamentalism. I suggest more of us get informed not only about how cults function but what fundamentalism is and the history of its development. It’s not only a way of interpreting the bible but a way of existing in the world.

What did those "good old days" mean to me?  In a few words:  God answering prayers for the desperate help that I needed and prayed for at the time, including being born again; and greater understanding and appreciation for the scriptures.

23 hours ago, Twinky said:

Mike said this in response to a recent thread I started:

I'm sure we've had thread concerning this, but if anyone wants to debate this with Mike, here it is.

No debate really, only mentioning the vibrant scriptures that come from the church's true gift ministries.   When they're in operation.   They are still around today.

2 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I'd go with that.

I'd consider the greatest secret NOT in the world today to be the date and time of Jesus Christ's return.

That's a good one...   I also think that the folks who continue to preach that these are the last days, may be off as well...   the preterists certainly would dispute that belief... 

On 6/8/2023 at 4:58 PM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

In listening to Craig Martindale’s Youtube Christian teaching, I see this as above average compared to other teachings by other people. For example, he does not believe in the most errant teaching today and in other years that people do not really die instead most people go to hell for eternal torment with only a few people, perhaps because they were part of their denomination, going to heaven to be with God. Instead like Victor Wierwille he believes in death and then two future resurrections of the dead. The first for followers of Jesus Christ or those in Christ, then the second as written in Revelation 20:11-15, which I view as a resurrection of judgement for people who were not followers of Jesus Christ in their lives. I now see that some or perhaps even most of the people will be judged favorably and be written in the book of life.

One doctrine that I do not agree with and never agreed with even while I was with the Way Ministry. I never believed that people could be born of the seed of the devil and have the devil’s spiritual seed always in them. Which verses do they think shows this?  

I think it was from PFAL and subsequent Scripture Buildup including (1) scripture from Genesis on the seed of the serpent; (2) scripture from the gospels on blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; (3) scripture from the epistles on the sin unto death.

On 9/9/2009 at 4:47 PM, skyrider said:

newlife.....I think that your recollection of geer's statements are correct.

HOWEVER.....I for one, did not believe his spin for one new york minute. All the pompous substance of pop led back to geer.....all he did, how much he tried, the unending labor he gave, etc. etc. And, time after time, he was so vague in "how to get back to 'the word'".......what a sleight of hand powergrab!!!

Everything benefited Cgeer. Soon region guys were flying over to see him and get the "secret keys" to stay in fellowship to God, etc. Sheeeeesh......people are SO GULLIBLE.

In terms of the infamous church lady........."HOW CONVENIENT."

:blink:

Agree...

On 6/9/2023 at 3:03 PM, Twinky said:

Probably is NOT "the Bible is the revealed word and will of God" as so pronounced by VPW. (And that probably wasn't *his* original thought anyway.) 

Instead, I'd venture to suggest that it's simply "God loves YOU." In my work out on the streets with homeless people and with young pleasure seekers, it is truly astonishing how many don't know this. And they may have been going to church for years, decades. 

God loves each and every one of us. May not love what we do, but loves us nonetheless. 

What would you say is the greatest secret in the world today? 

Jesus Himself, will be personally deciding everyone's eternal location.

On 5/24/2023 at 1:33 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

May/June Way mag article on what time it is, page 34.

 https://content.yudu.com/web/1rz5c/0A1tgm5/MJ2023/html/index.html?page=34&origin=reader
 

What's left unwritten in welcoming us back is the obvious:  one must understand that coming home means one must return to all the beliefs, all the customs, and all rules and regulations.    Sort of like this wonderful sequence from "Inherit the Wind":

"But all you have to do is to knock on any door and say "if you let me in I'll live the way you want me to live and I'll think the way you want me to think", and all the blinds will go up and all the doors will open and you'll never be lonely ever again."

16 hours ago, redrock and blues said:

I guess all you M&As are "forgiven" if you've been invited to "come & see".   From what I hear, they won't even let you drive by the place.  But then again, why would you want to?

It's unclear to me if they sent M&A people these cards; be good to find out.    I got one but was never labeled as M&A.    

23 hours ago, Beguiled said:

 

An interesting "connection" to TWI lol. 

What it says to me is that TWI had its own unique cult brand of VPW-only beliefs (which we all got a full dose of) while simultaneously excluding what VPW believed was error.   I have no doubt that if VPW actually believed the earth was flat, we would have had corps teachings in TWI promoting that from Bullinger!  LOL.

On 5/12/2023 at 10:29 AM, Beguiled said:

I'm just nit picketing so feel free to disregard, but those that are younger and come to this site will in fact notice that GSC can't even distinguish between sex and gender. I know I know, I can feel all of your eyeballs rolling into the back of your head. But since GSC decides to put it under everyone's screen name and does it improperly so we can see it over and over, it could easily turn off those who know better who can't see past this one thing. And trust me, to some it is a huge deal. So, just throwing it out there that a simple word change would tremendously help make it look like people know what they are doing around these here parts.  I know if I was trans-gendered and was coming here for healing I might think this community wouldn't care about me because of the mistake and its widespread use on the site. Just my thoughts. 

 

Sex = Male, Female

Gender = Man, Woman

Cis-Man/Woman = Man born a male, Woman born a female

Trans-gender = Man born a female, Woman born a male

As the Holy Apostle Paul warned the church For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. 

Found this piece a couple of weeks ago, revealing an ancient and very powerful evil spirit that people have worshipped then and appears to be gaining worship today.  

Ancient Mesopotamian Transgender and Non-Binary Identities - by Morg Daniels (academuseducation.co.uk)

On 5/12/2010 at 7:53 PM, bliss said:

Oh, they all act like I used to~when I was 20 and first got in TWI.....sickly sweet,hugging, helping everyone move...... all the while distancing myself from anyone who wasn't interested or wanted to be involved with it. (like my family!)

I have read many desperate mothers searching for answers to why their child WON'T leave this, and/or why these kids were told to NOT TALK to their parents for a year because they don't believe in or they ask too many questions.

Sad. Seems the vulnerability with this age range runs deep and these wolves know just how to stalk and attack the coup!

As it turned out my experience was completely opposite, i.e., my Mom was attending twig a full year before the rest of the family followed her lead.    A fitting word for Mom today, on Mothers Day.   Happy Mothers Day to all!