Linda Z

Who are you to say others are bitter and ....ed off because they speak up? Psychic are we?

Please show me where I said that of anyone but myself. I can save you the trouble. I didn't. I also said speaking up is good and that one can forive and still speak up.

No, I'm not psychic, and I'm not interested in a pi$$ing match.

I read as far as I've quoted here and then I stopped. I try to be very reasonable and considerate of others' viewpoints when I post here, especially in "About the Way." To have my words twisted and thrown back at me doesn't put me in the Christmas mood, so I'm done.

Have a merry Christmas. Forgive or don't. 'Tis your choice. I only tried to share what's worked for me. Nowhere did I accuse anyone of anything or tell them what to do. If you want to interpret my words that way, have at it. I'm done.

Wow, Mike, I totally missed this. Perhaps it got moved to "Prayers Answered" a little too quickly.

I'm glad your daughter is improving so much and am certainly praying for her! Thank God.

Jesus told us to forgive. What he said and did to the Pharisees, he said and did as the Son of God, with a capital S. I see nowhere in the Bible that he said to his disciples, "Seek revenge." Or "Hate your enemies." And in fact, I don't think he hated the Pharisees when he confronted them. I think he stood up to them on behalf of the people who followed him, because they were taking advantage of God's people. That's what we do when we speak up against the wrong done by twi "leaders." We can forgive and still speak up and stick up for each other.

I totally agree with leafy, who said:

I do not believe for a minute that forgiving some one for an atrocity that they perpetrated on me means that I am to lower my guard and allow them to take advantage or hurt me again. Forgiving them does not ever mean that I need to continue on in their company and if that person is purposefully going out to do harm to others I believe it is my spiritual obligation to warn other people.

Forgiving is not condoning. It is not reconciling, although it can lead to reconciliation. It is also not some milque-toast wishiy-washy thing. As cman said (and said very well), it is a powerful thing.

I did my time being unhappy and pi$$ed off and bitter about what twi "leaders" did to me. Then I saw past my bitterness and my hurt and realized I couldn't change them, that I could only change me. As long as I held onto those things, I was letting them continue to have power over me. When I decided to forgive and liet it go, it was like taking a sack of boulders off my back. It gave me a huge sense of freedom and empowerment.

Merry Christmas to you, too, Roy. And may 2009 be a year of health and happiness for you!

Wow, Kimberly, that sounds like a workout! I don't think I'll attempt anything like that until after I retire, but that's impressive.

Geisha, I was at a local craft store a couple days ago to get more chocolate to make another batch ot RainbowGirls Peppermint Bark. I noticed they had 5 lbs of Wilton rolled fondant for $9.97. The store was Pat Cattan's...don't know if it's a national chain or just local. I don't know if that's more or less than what you pay when you order it on the Internet, but I thought of you and thought I'd mention it.

I'm off work until Christmas, so I'm going to make a big batch of now i see's sugar cookies. Can't wait to see how they turn out.

I'm sorry what are we forgiving?

Serial adultery, rape, sexual abuse, twisting scripture, teaching false doctrines, lying, stealing, using money entrusted for God--for lust and pleasure, vanity, pride, the break-up of families, marriages, manipulation, using the most vile language while teaching about a Holy God. . . . the list is endless.

Oh I forgot. . . .all IN the NAME of a Holy God

What kind of moral relativity forgives this behavior with no repentance and change.

Isn't this actually what God condemns??

Forgive, knock yourself out with it. It is still evil behavior--and yes--I am making a judgement call here. I feel like I am on pretty solid ground.

I feel I can only forgive people for what they've done to me. I'm plenty angry about what they've done to other people who were hurt far worse than I was by twi "leaders," and I do not equate my forgiveness for wrongs committed against me with letting anyone off the hook for anything, whether done to me or others. I have no right to forgive someone for what he or she did to anyone but me.

And I don't feel I'm practicing moral relativity in the least. What is wrong is wrong. What is evil is evil. My forgiveness doesn't remove anyone's wrongness and evil one iota. I'm not that powerful, and it's not my job or my desire. It looks to me like doling out consequences is God's job, and last time I checked, God's name wasn't on my electric bill.

Just because I feel forgiving wrongs done to me is what I need to do certainly doesn't mean I can't recognize evil and point it out. The two are not mutually exclusive in my mind, at all.

Some of these men and women who used and abused God's people, if they're still alive, ought to be on their knees every day asking God's forgiveness. Maybe some of them are, but I suspect many haven't yet come to the realization that they did something wrong. If anyone wants to ask my forgiveness, that's nice, but I'm not waiting around for them to act rightly in order to get my heart where I think it belongs.

Potato said:

Linda, it seems a bit like a chicken and egg problem... which comes first, processing the anger, bitterness and hurt feelings, or the "forgiving"? does "forgiving" make the bad feelings go away? or does dealing with the hurt bring you to a point of "forgiveness"?

I have to admit, the symantic gymnastics that religious philosophers go through over the concept of forgiveness often seem designed to make people feel guilty who decide not to be held captive to the bondage of being required to "forgive" a wrong-doer. those who hurt DON'T have power over me anymore. now it's MY choice. I no longer HAVE to forgive them.

I can only speak for myself, and I'm not telling anyone else that they have to forgive. That's each person's decision. For me, I processed the anger, bitterness, and hurt feelings for a while, and then I decided that was too much baggage to carry around and I didn't want it, so I decided to forgive what people in twi had done to me.

I didn't decide to forgive out of guilt. I did it for me. I figure God is more than capable of any revenge that might be due anyone else.

You're right, it's your choice, absolutely. And I don't feel any more righteous than anyone else for the choice I've made. It's simply what works for me.

Twinky, if you need to leave the kitties at home, this is what they'll be doing.

To me the subject of forgiveness is simple (note I didn't say easy). When I forgive someone, it releases me--from my anger and bitterness and hurt feelings. It doesn't release that person from God's judgment. That part is between the person and God.

I hear a lot of people talking about not forgiving until someone asks for forgiveness. I refuse to give someone that much power over me. I don't want what I do with my heart and mind to depend on someone else's actions. I have the power to forgive or not. Waiting for an apology just holds my heart captive all that much longer.

Twinky, given the difficult history you've had with your cats and how much progress you've made, I wonder if you might want to reconsider taking them to your mom's. Cats, I'm told, are very "place oriented" and can freak out when taken out of their own homes.

Unlike dogs, who always seem ready for a road trip, cats apparently don't like it so much. You've gained so much ground with your kitties, it would be a shame to have them revert to their scaredy-catness. Of course, if you have no alternative but to take them along, then I'm sure they'll do okay. This is just some animal wisdom I got from a friend who's a frequent cat and dog rescuer.

Is there anyone who could feed your cats for you while you're gone and look in on them every day or two? When I travel, I leave my cat extra food in her self-feeder dish, make sure she has plenty of water and a clean litter box, and just have my sister check on her every couple of days.

BTW, I read your tale of the thread-swallowing cat with my heart in my mouth. I've seen x-rays of cats with a needle in their tummies, and they always had to have emergency surgery, lest the needle pierce their intestines. I'm so glad your kitty's adventure had a happy ending!!

Notta said:

By the way, LCM almost never wrote any article in The Way Mag. They were all rehashed teachings from Sunday Teaching Services. President's Publications would get the transcriptions and started marking them up to form it in to a magazine article.

Pres Pub should have been grateful for that. In Way Pub, we used to have to edit the stuff he actually wrote himself. It wasn't easy, and his sec'y, bless her heart, guarded his words like a pitbull, whether they made any sense or not. She'd present these convoluted arguments about what he meant, and we'd say, "It doesn't matter what he means if no one can figure out what the heck he means." LOL now...then, not so much.

HAP, I can't answer your question, being pretty much a computer idiot myself, but when I read your post a thought occurred to me. Could you check the program's settings to see if there's an auto-save feature tucked away somewhere? There may not be one, but in word processing programs, like MS Word, you can set it to autosave every few minutes and it's invisible and doesn't affect anything you're doing. Just a crazy thought, until you get the real answer.

RG, I made your peppermint bark for a get-together at work yesterday, and it was a huge hit! Everyone loved it and asked me for the recipe. Thanks for sharing it. It was so easy!

What a great photo and great gift! Wow, the kids! have grown, too!

Thanks for answering, John. My responses to you are in blue, below.

I didn't mean to ignore it. I must have missed it!

Deprogramming doesn't really happen anymore. Ted Patrick was sued back in the early 80s, I believe, for forcible removal of an adult and attempting to coerce someone into leaving a cult. I believe the charges were kidnapping and similar things.

I had 3 good friends and one acquaintance who were kidnapped and attempted to be deprogrammed. They all returned to twi with horror stories about how they had been treated: sleep deprivation, shoes taken away to make it harder for them to escape, sometimes food deprivation, constant grilling and badgering. I knew 3 of these people before and after their attempted deprogramming and one I got to know after she went through it. I didn't know any of them to be given to exaggeration or lying, so I had no reason not to believe what they said had happened to them. I was glad the law finally came down hard on Patrick and his ilk.

Exit counseling doesn't involve detaining someone, but it is a confrontational process of attempting to talk someone into leaving through an "intervention." Generally, the intervention is arranged for by concerned family members. In 2 to 3 days of day-long sessions, the group member is presented with information about fraudulent material about the group, the techniques of mind control used by their group, and the testimony of other former members.

You asked at the end of your post what I think about exit counseling. I think so-called exit counseling is simply "deprogramming light"--an old approach in a new, more legally acceptable dress. Not to mention that it seems like a highly profitable one for its practitioners!! I do have a question: If the subjects of exit counseling aren't kidnapped, how do these groups get them to participate? Once the sessions start, are they permitted to walk away at any time?

I don't do either. I'm not comfortable confronting someone and trying to convince them that their group was a cult. It runs against my beliefs and temperament. It frequently doesn't work long time. It doesn't respect the right of adults to make their own decisions for themselves.

I'm very glad to see you say this. It's my opinion that anything can become a "cult" to someone who is vulnerable to sacrificing who they are and their right to make their own decisions, and invest all their time and emotional energy in a group, whether it's a mainstream church or the PTA or a non-mainstream religious group. To me, the important point here is, as you say, that adults have a right to make their own decisions about what they involve themselves in.

It's pretty darn expensive: After paying the exit counselor's fees, travel, lodging, phone calls, and incidentals the price tag can run $10 grand, maybe more. And some exit counselors work as a team, with three or so people, confronting the group member. Really expensive.

I wonder what percentage of that $10 grand or so goes to the exit counselors. I can't imagine what it must be like to be "confronted" by a team of "three or so people" for "2 or 3 day-long sessions." I also wonder if the exit counselors still seek out families to convince them to put up that kind of money to "rescue" their adult children. I seem to recall that Ted Patrick et al were quite aggressive in their marketing to families, and for some of those families, the expense was a great hardship.

And, even when it does work, for many people exit counseling is not enough -- challenges continue long after leaving a cult for many people. (snip for brecity)

It's my opinion that some of those challenges arise from the experience of exit counseling itself.

I choose to work with people who have already decided to leave their group. Even then, I don't take a directive approach, meaning I don't try to convince them of anything. I strive to give everyone the respect and space to make these important decisions for themselves.

I'm relieved to hear this is your position. This is what I wanted to know. I think doing otherwise runs the risk of plunging people into what I call the "anti-cult cult," just switching from one authoritative group or person telling them what to do to another authoritative group or person telling them what to do. Not healthy, in my opinion.

I work with something called a "brief therapy model." This means that we start planning on termination from the first time we meet. What do you want to get out of therapy? How will you know when you have met your goals? With questions like that, we start from the beginning the process of firing me and hiring you to be your own therapist.

That seems to be an excellent plan, one that discourages people from becoming dependent on their therapist

Typically my work lasts 12 or so sessions with a client. Sometimes a person's personal needs require longer work. And to disclose fully, I have worked with some clients for a couple of years. This is unusual. But some clients are extremely damaged and require a great deal of support. The point isn't to make a career of therapy!

Now it isn't the case that every client will have dealt with all problems within 12 sessions. But in the majority of cases, clients will have learned the tools that they need to become their own therapist and continue progressing on their own.

I like your attitude. :)

Linda Z, I hope this answers your question. Don't hesitate to ask for further details. And I'd like to know your views of exit counseling. Did you or someone you know get involved with exit counseling?

Thank you, John, for your forthright answers. I really wasn't trying to put you on the spot, but because of my reservations about exit counseling and some things associated with it, I really wanted to know where you stood. As somneone else said (Groucho, I think), I feel quite protective of my fellow GSers and wanted to make sure you weren't "one of those." :D

Hi again, John:

I'm puzzled as to why you haven't answered my question about deprogramming/exit counseling. In asking that question, I was not trying to start an argument with you. I simply wanted to know where you stand on that issue. And more importantly, I think it's only fair that others here have the opportunity to know the answer, since you're promoting your counseling business on GSC.

It's your right to ignore me, but it doesn't raise your credibility level, IMO, when you ignore a question that is so pertinent to the type of services you're offering.

Yes, Lifted, you were the one I was referring to, but I didn't want to name you, in case you'd rather not engage in this discussion.

And yes, I really am interested in what John thinks about what I asked him. That's why I asked.

I would like to know what his position on deprogramming/exit counselling is. It's not an accusation, just a question. If he and I disagree, that won't mean I think he's a bad person. It will just mean we disagree. :)

Dearest My~:

I don't usually do b'days around here because I'm afraid I'll miss some and hit others and thus hurt somebody's feelings. For you, I'll make an exception today.

Have a Marguerita on me, belatedly. Picture me clinking my glass to yours across the miles.

Love,

Zee

Interesting, Socks. I'm no musician, but the melody sure sounds identical to me. The opening rhythm is different on the Coldplay song, but once that fades and the melody comes on, it sure seems like a carbon copy.

When it comes to plagiarism, I wonder how much of it is unintentional, especially as it pertains to musical compositions. I've often thought you could hear some music without giving it much thought and then later come up with a tune you think is your own, but it really arose from the subconscious memory somewhere.

Nevertheless, Judge Linda says, "Give the money to the guitarist. You Coldplay guys have plenty to spare, it would seem."

WD, it's the principle behind the stamp thing. Even when I was a good little gung-ho Twig leader I found it annoying that I was sending in 100s of dollars to HQ, yet we were told (very clearly, I might add) that God forbid we should take a quarter for a money order and whatever a stamp cost back then out of the ABS. It didn't break me. I didn't go without food over it. It just irked me. Just like saying ABS couldn't be used for ANYTHING except putting in an envelope with that damned blue form (oh, how I hated filling that out every week) and sending it off to Box 328.

One of the greatest things about leaving twi was the freedom to give where and when and to whom I wanted. Toward the end of my twi time, until I walked away altogether, I stopped sending my Twig's money to HQ and encouraged people to give where they wanted. I told them if they wanted to keep supporting what was going on at twi they could send their money there themselves.

After that, giving became fun, not a religious ritual that would keep God spitting on me...so to speak.

Hi John:

Socks is right. You might even get an argument around here if you were handing out $100 bills. If you walked through the doors of the GSC announcing that the sky was blue, someone would challenge, "How do you know that?" Someone else might say, "It is not. I was just outside and the sky was grey." Others would take your side and the battle would ensue. :)

Questioning is a good thing as long as it doesn't become badgering, but I don't think it's reached that level in this thread. After all, it was not questioning that got some of us in trouble, wasn't it? So you'll just have to bear with us when we ask what's on our minds.

I've been wondering a couple things. Did you leave TM of your own volition, or did someone do an intervention or deprogram you or "exit counsel" you or whatever it's called these days? Do you feel such interventions are beneficial and healthy?

I'll be fair and tell you up front that I don't think those methods are healthy or based on good, solid, scientific evidence. I know there's at least one GSC member who was deprogrammed who would agree. I think counselling provided after someone has made up his or her mind to leave a controlling religious group can be a wonderful thing. I'm very much not convinced, though, that people should be dragged out against their will (of course I'm talking adults here).

I'd be interested to hear what you think.

When I think of Carole, I think of her kind and loving soul. I'm sorry I never had the privilege to meet her in person, but her words certainly brought light to these forums.

To Carole's family and close friends, you are lucky to have known her, and I'm so sorry for your loss.

You know what I remember about my first ROA? Elvis died. That is what I associate with my first ROA. I don't remember any teachings, songs, who I camped with (now that I am racking my brain I think it was Jackie and Cheryl. I will have to call Jackie tomorrow and ask her) or how I arrived there. Fuzzy, yes fuzzy. No, I was not on drugs...funny, har, har...I was in a laundrymat in New Knoxville??? Yeh, I know you don't know where I was either. It came on the television in the laundrymat that Elvis had died. Kuhraaazzzyyy, Elvis died while I was at my first ROA. That was a sign of things to come.

Kimberly, I think the year Elvis died, the ROA was held at the Sidney fairgrounds. I remember my son going across the street to the little mom and pop store for something and running back to tell us the news.

Ah, the Skapuras...salt-of-the-earth people. Those are the ones I wonder about...good souls who just stick around after it's become so obvious there's nothing to stick around for.

Ok...back to finances. WD just sent me down Memory Lane for a minute.

I'm glad to hear all these endorsements because I've been thinking about shopping around for a better rate.

I was once told that Geico stands for Government Employees Insurance Co. and that they used to insure only---ta da! gov't employees. Anyone know if that's true?