Linda Z

Rumrunner said:

Seems like we heard that a lot from Nazi soldiers - they were "just following orders" - they were in an abusive system that made sure that they abused others - hence they took no responsibility. That excuse never flew during the Nuremberg trials.

Wouldn't that analogy only apply if someone here were saying, "We couldn't help abusing other people because we were victims of an abusive system"?

I don't see how any exway person who didn't know about the abuse and didn't commit any abuses is guilty of anything. I'm not talking about people who saw it and turned a blind eye. I'm talking about people who just plain didn't know.

I haven't seen anywhere that Geisha excused abuse with the "I was abused" excuse.

As for feeling guilty for supporting twi unwittingly, to me that's a wasted emotion. Who knows what evil empires we might support unknowingly in this world whenever we make a purchase? We can try to buy from companies that treat their employees right, and hope that their products and all the components of those products were made in countries where children aren't forced to work in sweat shops. We can hope that the money we spend in any given store doesn't ultimately get funneled to terrorists or some power that's committing genocide somewhere in the world.

Should I feel guilty in 2009 because in 1967 I bought some pot from a dealer whose supplier was a gangster who used profits from his sales to finance hits on his enemies? Am I accountable because I once supported a political candidate who turned out to be embezzling city money? Where does the guilt trip end?

We do the best we can in this crazy world. I don't think it's healthy to be inordinantly hard on ourselves or each other.

The "Lies and Deception" thread raised this question for me.

How did you feel when you found out that SIT is bogus?

Who pronounced it bogus? Because some people on GSC have said they faked it, you've now decided that it's always fake?

I'd never heard of SIT before I did it, which was long before I ever heard of twi. It was an amazing, uplifting experience for me, with God's signature and love all over it. I'm sorry that it apparently wasn't like that for you.

I won't argue about this because I don't argue doctrine. It's about as futile as arguing politics. I have to say, though, that I disagree with the premise of your question.

Great points, Chockfull.

brainfixed said:

your last paragraph says it for me quite well. thank you. i am a little bit jumpy with the idea that the quality of a person has no impact on the actual healing because if the quality of the person is part of an abusive system that has worn low a person's natural boundaries against abuse then the "healing" may "manifest" itself simply by subliminal suggestion instead of reality and people could go many years "believing" they are "healed" when in fact they are exacerbating an underlying condition by playing out being "healed".

I totally get that the healing isn't dependent on the person ministering but on God. Knowing that God is bigger than any system, program, approach, or action cooked up by man is what helped my departure from twi be a lot less painful than it might have been.

I know what you're talking about, brainfixed. I saw people during my years in twi who thought they were healed when they weren't. They needed medical or mental health treatment. I also saw my share of genuine healings, of everything from heroin addiction to mental illness to physical problems.

In my case, the healing was quite obvious and unnaturally rapid. I had a deep cut down the middle of my entire face from going through the windshield of a car. Except for a few scabs, it went entirely away over the course of a 3-day weekend. And I couldn't walk, then I could. If God's hands were tied by the sins and shortcomings of people, we'd be in a world of hurt.

Edited to add: I have a very tiny scar below my lower lip from that cut. It serves to remind me of two things: God's goodness and to pay careful attention while driving. :)

TrustandObey said:

Yeah, selling a class. Trying to persuade others to check out your fellowship.. Sounds like a cult to me.. Sounds like the opposite of genuine love and care for someone. Only care was you got what you wanted, Them coming to your big gig!

I didn't mind inviting people to fellowship; I often invited friends and acquaintances to fellowship. I never viewed my fellowship as a twi "product" or certainly not a "big gig." What I minded was being put into an artificial situation to do so. On the rare occasions when I did succumb to the peer pressure to "go" witnessing, I did care about the people I met, and I tried to see ways to help or encourage them if I could.

I think I only pushed the WOWs in my family to go door to door once or maybe twice all year, due to pressure from "above," and I felt bad doing it.

newlife, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm sure you were looking out for the best interests of the people you talked to, and not to those of twi, or it couldn't have been so enjoyable. :)

Tzaia, that's one way to get out of it! Too bad about your rollerskates, though.

Oldies, you said:

I know what you mean but still disagree with the premise that it was forced; which may lead to the thought that one had no choice in the matter. Programs like WOW were a choice. Witnessing night was a choice. ( I know folks who didn't go WOW and did not show up for witnessing night (even me sometimes ); those were choices too.))

By forced I don't mean someone stood over me with a club. I mean forced as contrived, as in a "forced smile."

Yes, we had a choice, and usually I chose not to do it. But at times the pressure to go was quite intense and I gave in. Going WOW was a choice for me only in that I volunteered to be in the Corps and going WOW was my interim year assignment. I never had any desire to go WOW. I thought people should be a witness where they lived, unless they had a ministry of an evangelist and felt the need to move somewhere else to fulfill it. I knew I didn't, and therefore I was always uncomfortable about it. Ditto for Lightbearers, only worse. At least I lived in the community where I was a WOW and had the chance to form relationships with people, rather than just shove a green card in their hands and leave town!

I tried to see it more than simply "trying to get something" (although it IS like trying to catch fish, being a fisher of men) but doing something (I believed was) profitable that may really help someone else, something outside of my usual regular comfortable, quiet, lazy self.

I certainly didn't view it as trying to get something, either, but I believe that was the push behind all the "going witnessing." I was neither quiet nor lazy, so I didn't need to take part in a fake scenario in order to meet people and talk to them about God.

Think about it... its not easy to walk up to someone and talk about God, whether in a mall or at someone's door. In addition to helping someone learn more about God that made some sense I think witnessing had the potential of building character, and overcoming fear. So I view this as something "I did" as opposed to being told I had to do this. My feeling is, if it can't be done by free will, it is worthless in the long run anyway.

I have thought about it. A lot. No, it's not easy to walk up to someone and talk about God, but there's a reason for that. It's unnatural. Speaking to someone at God's gentle urging is a far cry from circling a mall looking for anyone, just anyone, who will listen. I heartily agree that if it isn't done by free will, as opposed to coercion, that it's worthless. I think if anyone ever came to know God in a shopping mall, that was the exception, and it was God's doing in spite of the flawed approach of the people "witnessing."

The part about selling PFAL then blowing out of town not caring about who is left there, is reasonable. I guess it depends on one's own mindset? Is one there simply to sell PFAL and not care a fig about the people who God brought in one's path, or view it as God bringing these people in one's path to be responsible to serve over a considerable length of time? Both mindsets were available, no doubt.

Oldies, it didn't matter if you cared a fig about the people you met on Lightbearers or not. The fact was you were in a town for 2 weeks, under threat of not being allowed to stay in the Corps if your Lightbearers group didn't "get a class together." Then you were back on your campus, trying to keep up with the busy in-rez schedule and rarely, if ever, got to see the people again. That was BS, plain and simple. Phony, fake, forced, and fear-motivated. I think I had a mindset of being there to help people, but that didn't change the fact that those people would probably never lay eyes on us again.

Twinky, a hearty amen to everything you said there. That's exactly what I was trying to get at.

All through my time in twi, I objected to the organization's concept of "going witnessing."

I always figured that if God knew someone was ready to hear about Him and His Son, and if I was in the vicinity, God could get us together. To me, going "mall witnessing" and "door-to-door witnessing" was so contrived.

I wasn't ashamed of the message or afraid to speak it; I was ashamed to force it on anyone. I could still remember aggressive street-hippie Christians in 1960s Los Angeles accosting me with, "Are ya saved, sister? They always seemed phony to me, and I didn't want to be like them.

I know it says in the Bible that they went house to house in the first century. But who ever said they went house to house the way we did in twi? Maybe they just went house to house doing kind things for their neighbors, and then when and if people wanted to know, they told them about Jesus Christ. It was a giving thing, not a "trying to get something" (i.e., a signed green card, another notch on the belt) thing.

Going Lightbearers in the Corps was the worst form of contrived "witnessing," IMO. It was nothing more than selling PFAL. I happened to like PFAL, but I sure didn't like blowing into a town, selling "the class," and then blowing out of town. "Yeah, I'll be your friend. For 2 weeks. Then b'bye." Yuck.

exsie said:

i do remember when everything i said was shot to sheet. i had to leave the boards for about eight months (i made up for it though, didn't i ?)

so i do understand how that feels, no matter what your perspective is

That's one reason I love ya, my friend. You show so much empathy for others, even others who look at things very differently from how you look at them.

Being able to put yourself in other people's shoes and care how they feel is a mighty fine quality.

lindaz, if you had not been actually healed would that have made you look at the "dr" and the way international in a different light?

Good question, brainfixed.

I have to leave for work in a couple minutes. I'll give my short answer now, but I won't be able to look in here again until tonight.

That was only one positive experience I had with vpw. There were others. There were also plenty of negative experiences I had that could be traced right back to decisions VPW made. I'm not in the camp that thinks everything went south just because vpw died, although lcm did seem to make an art form out of screwing things up more than they already were.

So the short answer is that if I hadn't been healed that day, it probably wouldn't have changed my view of my years in twi today. I'd still view it as a mix of good times and bad times.

As for where this thread has gone, it's typical, brainfixed. These sorts of threads, on topics that get heated, seem to have a mind of their own, regardless of the good intentions of whoever started them. They just go where they go. And although it saddens me to see people I like getting angry with each other, in a way I think it's healthy for people to say what they really mean instead of tap-dancing around.

TommyZ, that's really great news. I'm glad you found someone to play your music with, without all the interference!

Turn it around - if someone else posted a negative experience with VPW and that was ridiculed - how well would it play? How has it played out in the past?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Twinky, I'm glad you found answers here that helped you get past what happened to you. Your getting tossed out was clearly twi's loss and your gain!

I have great sympathy for those who were kicked out of twi before they were ready to leave. I can't imagine how much harder that would have been than walking away voluntarily.

Laugh all you like, Ham. It doesn't bother me.

I like to deal in facts.

One fact is, I was badly injured in a car accident in 1972, and when VPW ministered healing, I had a remarkably rapid, positive, permanent result. I don't really care much how it happened. I'm just thankful that it happened.

Here's another fact. I know full well that some of VPW's behaviors/actions were far from fitting for a Christian minister. I am not ignoring or excusing those, nor am I delusional about them.

Geisha: I give you an A+ :)

I'm sorry to see you go, especially if your departure was prompted by the actions of another poster here. But if it's a good thing for you, then I'm glad you can take a break for a while. Breaks are good. :)

Have a wonderful summer, WG. May your garden grow without weeds!

My pantyhose aren't in a twist, thank you, Rummie. I was really just trying to get you to come out and say what you were saying without being so vague.

Guessing is so much more fun anyway!

If it's me, RumR, you may feel free to have at it. I give you my permission. :)

Frankly, I think after a few years on here we can predict what a lot of people are going to say before they say it.

Exsie, my friend (and I know you know I"m your friend and vice versa), I do see the evil. It's just not all I see.

I'm glad you love me anyway, because I sure love you!

'Scuze me. I must go to prepare my next sermon.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner.

Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to understand your point here, but your implication or accusation or criticism, or whatever it is, is so vague and veiled that I'm not certain what you mean.

I could guess at what you're trying to say, but that leads to nowhere but miscommunication. I'd rather hear you explain it straight out and specifically.

Tzaia said:

My belief then was that it wasn't for everyone. Now I think it's really not for anyone.

That is it in a nutshell for me!

Bolshevik said:

Like a car full of kids smoking pot who run over someone's dog or worse. Those kid's had a good time. And you can never take that away from them.

There's a big problem with your analogy.

The people you're comparing to a car full of kids smoking pot are those of us here who have left twi who had some good times. We didn't have good times doing something bad or illegal, or at the expense of others. I can confidently say that most of your average Wayfers were seeking God, trying to help people, and loving each other with pure motives.

I don't think I'm unique in saying that my good times in twi weren't at the expense of anyone else. I didn't use and abuse people and then turn around today and say, "Too bad if I hurt someone. So what? I had a good time while doing it." That's what your analogy implies.

Speaking just for me, the bad times I had don't negate the good times I had, any more than the good times I had erase the bad times. Nor does the fact that most of my years in twi were good ones disprove or discount anyone else's stories about the bad things they experienced. They don't cancel each other out.

Stuff happened. Some was good, some was bad. It's no different than any other period of my life in that respect.

Sorry, but I'm not going to be made to feel guilty because I had good times in twi. That guilt rests on the shoulders of those who caused the bad times, not on mine.

I heard very few teachings on the book of Revelation in the Corps, but many on the book of Acts.

Waysider said:

Women wore special clothing to make themselves appear flat chested and shapeless.

And by the time I got to junior high, we stuffed Kleenex in our bras to make ourselves appear not flat-chested and shapeless! Funny how fashions change...LOL

Seriously, though, back to the topic...I think the article dooj posted the link to is very telling. It sounds like Michaelangelo was more comfortable with sculpting than with painting, and it appears to me that he sculpted the Pieta during a happier (or at least less unhappy) time of his life than when he painted the Sistine chapel. Plus, he was getting pressured by the Catholic powers-that-were to hurry up and finish it, so maybe some of the more grotesque features of the painting were done purposely, as a Renaissance-era version of the one-finger salute. :D

Or then again, maybe he liked women in his youth and grew to dislike them as he got older. We may never know, but it certainly is interesting to ponder all this!

Way to go, Ron!

$300 was just a drop in the bucket, eh?!?

I looked at your listings, Ron. Those are some exceptionally nice trucks. I could be wrong, but I'll bet you'll see a big jump in the bids just as the auctions are closing. A lot of serious bidders lie in wait to make sure they get the last bid in..."snipers." I hope that's the case for you!

act2, I'm happy for your dad!!

My dad's something else. He got online and learned to use the Internet after he was 80. In addition to his eBay activities, he has many e-mail pals--mostly fellow toy collectors.

Ron, my dad's a long-time old toy collector (the toys are old and so is he). He's done very well with both buying and selling on eBay. Keeps him out of the pool hall at age 89, almost 90. :D

As for Danbury Mint items, and most other marketed-to-be-collecitble doodads, people are very lucky to get back even what they paid for them. At least that's been my observation.

If you ever want to sell something you think is valuable on eBay, it's a good idea to watch completed auctions for a while to see what items of similar vintage/condition are going for. I recently got $141 for a book I paid $1 for at an estate sale because I noticed furious bidding on a later edition of the same book and quickly listed my copy 3 days before that other sale ended. I was planning to sell it anyway, but noticing that other sale and jumping in there when I did improved my outcome.

Garth, I still have some twi stuff to sell, so I watch what it's going for from time to time. The winning bids are all over the board. I've seen some things go ridiculously high and then not sell at all at another time. It only takes two people who really want something to boost the bids to the skies. If only one person wants it, it will go for the minimum bid.

Speaking of eBay, has anyone else noticed the intrusion of ads there lately? With all the money they're making on their listing fees and PayPal fees, it ought to be ad-free. Reminds me of movie theaters that charge $8-10/ticket and then show you ads before the movie. Yuck.

It's all well and good that Wikipedia takes such a collective approach to creating what appears to be an encyclopedia. That link I posted is merely a reminder that it's wise to take care how you use it.

I had to laugh, thinking about the encyclopedias I grew up with...big, heavy volumes on the library shelf, or in your bookcase at home if your parents got talked into buying a set by an encyclopedia salesman. Can you imagine sitting in the library, crossing out an entry and replacing it with your take on the subject? Somehow envisioning that scenario really cracks me up.

OK, Socksness, see what you went and did. By participating in this thread, you made the following ad appear at the bottom of the page: "Womens Support Socks." That phrase leaves a lot to be desired, grammatically speaking, but yeah, I'd say we womens support Socks...or we at least like him a lot.

Back on topic:

Oeno, I know you already apologized to Socks for the tone of the following post, but because I find myself nodding in agreement with pretty much everything he said, I want to respond to what you said, without reacting to the tone of it.

To anyone who thinks that TWI didn't manipulate people to be their lackies, please remember denial is not a river in Egypt.

IMO, to accuse anyone who expresses that they had any kind of positive experience in twi of being in denial is very similar to demanding proof of anyone who describes a negative experience in twi. We experienced what we experienced, saw what we saw, learned what we learned, put up with what we put up with, ad infinitum. So unless someone is slobbering all over a VPW statuette (I still can't believe they made those things!) and refusing to recognize that anything bad ever happened in twi, I don't think denial is a fair assessment of someone else's views.

Do you not remember the group pressure to take the next class, go to the big area function, skip studying for the big exam you had the next day to go to the branch meeting?

Yes, I do, but I didn't care. I took classes if and when I wanted to take them, and for the most part I wanted to because I enjoyed them (with the exception of repeating them). I went to functions when I wanted to go and when I didn't, I didn't. I usually wanted to go to fellowships, but when I didn't want to go, I didn't go.

So why did I react the way I did to twi's pressures and demands, and why did others react differently? I think maybe it's largely because of who we were going in. I think those of us who got into twi on our own (as opposed to being raised in it...that might be a whole 'nother story) were pretty much who we were going to be by the time we got there, and we responded accordingly.

Do you not remember the pressure that you felt under at the ROA to put your life on hold and go WOW which means, by the way, you don't get to see your family during the holidays, go to your mom's graduation when she received her Master's degree with cum laude honors or go to your brothers wedding?

I saw all the "rah, rah, go WOW hooplah," but I didn't feel pressured by it. I figured it was my life and I knew what was best for my child and me. I never went WOW until my interim year in the Corps, but that was different. I knew going in I'd be assigned somewhere that year, so for me it wasn't a matter of pressure but part of a commitment I'd made and wanted to keep.

Do you not remember the cold looks (or perhaps that hot encounter you had with some pea brained leader) you got if you decided that the "next thing" wasn't right for you?

This is another factor in the whole "comparing twi experiences" thing. A lot depended on who your "leaders" were. For the most part, when I was your basic twig goer and twig leader (ahem, coordinator), I had loving, wonderful people as leadership. There were a couple of pea brains mixed in there, but I didn't give them much thought except to mentally note that they were immature or arrogant or whatever. I have to say, though, I encountered people like that throughout my life, everywhere I went, so I wasn't too surprised to run into them in twi.

Since this thread is about soul, don't you remember being taught that is not your own anyway? Don't you know you were bought with a price and now you owe it to Der Vey because Der Vey taught you Der Wort. (Actually, now I have come to like wort since I started homebrewing.) Give me an effin break! You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult.

Funny how different our perspectives are. To me "you are not your own, you are bought with a price," didn't say to me I couldn't be my own self. It simply meant to me, as a Christian, my proper response to the sacrifice God made for me was to take care of myself, to value myself, and to value others, as well. I still feel that way today.

As for looking back with "rose-colored glasses," I don't. I do remember the good times as good and the bad times as bad, just as I view any period in my life. I will not discard everything I learned or experienced in twi just because others feel that none of it was of value, any more than I will ignore the horrible things that happened to some people in twi just because others would like to pretend they never happened.