Linda Z

Congrats, P-Mosh, Mrs. Mosh, and big sis!! That's great news.

On that Ebay Seller site [selling Cummings Greek Research] they state the following:

---the organization has been in steady decline since its founder died. Shortly afterward it fell apart in a flurry of lawsuits charging sexual harassment, rape, homosexuality and homosexual purges and a slew financial shenanigans. In 1982 it has 3,100 world recruiters. By 1997 it had 43. Membership that once numbered six figures is down to less than 4,000.

Must be someone from the inside, or very close to it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fundamentals-of-Greek-Research-WJ-Cummins-The-Way-RARE_W0QQitemZ360184873557QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiquarian_Collectible?hash=item53dcb10255&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

That part of his/her listing would make it seem so, but that info might have been gleaned from various anti-twi sites on the Internet. The fact that he/she says VPW didn't believe in salvation and that once someone dies, that's it, makes me wonder if he/she was ever directly involved.

Okay, will the real EBay seller please stand up if you're here. :)

I don't think this is "looney".....it has more to do with an ebay audience vs an in-house audience.

Maybe looney isn't the right word. Maybe "lying" would be more accurate. This person implies that the little 30-page booklet is (a) worth $125 and (b) will certainly increase in value because of its rarity. Ha! That, combined with the off-the-wall description of TWI beliefs, is IMO merely a fabrication.

Just because someone says something anti-TWI doesn't make it automatically legitimate. <_<

Geo, people might have called it that where you were while VPW was still alive, but it was not named the VPW Word Over the World Auditorium until after his death.

Where does this person get their facts??

Quote:

"Wierwille concludes there is no salvation, death is final, and faith is not belief."

Am I the only one who doesn't get this!

Yes, I saw that but decided to only comment on the outrageous asking price. It appears the person selling this booklet was never involved in twi. I don't know where he/she got this stuff. I suppose someone could surmise that VPW taught that death is final if they misinterpreted the title of Are the Dead Alive Now? without reading it, and VPW did teach there was a difference between faith and believing, but where this person got the he taught there is no salvation, I can't even guess.

BTW, someone else is trying to sell Corps notes for almost $400!

And.... " In 1982 it (TWI) had 3,100 world recruiters. By 1997 it had 43. "

This might refer to the number of Way Disciples (did they already call them that in 1997?) vs. the number of WOWs in 1982. But again, I don't know where this person got the info.

I mean, TWI is looney enough, they really don't need these even loonier claims.

No kidding. Ironically, that's the same way I feel when people on GSC engage in wild speculation rather than sticking to the facts. There's plenty wrong with twi without making stuff up.

Check out this link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fundamentals-of-Greek-Research-WJ-Cummins-The-Way-RARE_W0QQitemZ360184873557QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiquarian_Collectible?hash=item53dcb10255&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

This is the little soft-cover collateral, a small booklet. If it would really go for this person's asking price, I'd take the trouble to dig mine out of the box in the attic. Fat chance, though.

Skyrider, the letter Kevlar rec'd wasn't about the auditorium. He was just comparing another letter that was pitching for donations. He can speak for himself if he comes back to this thread, but I think his 1972 date was correct. Note the groups on the albums that were sent out. Selah was long gone by 1982.

Wow, Kevlar, that's bizarre. I took PFAL after ROA in 1972, but I didn't get that letter or those albums. It reminds me of some goofy supposedly Christian organization that sends out little "prayer cloths" and asks for donations.

It's ironic that VPW ragged on churches for holding bake sales and rummage sales to raise money, but he had no problem with guilting them into forking over the cash. Another double standard.

I remember that the name was supposed to be "The Word Over the World Auditorium," PERIOD. No VPW on it. I contributed for that reason. Then, up goes the building, and what's it called?

I was on staff when the auditorium was built and dedicated. Actually, it wasn't called the VPW WOW Auditorium when it went up; it was called the Word Over the World Auditorium. VPW was adamant that his name not be included in its name. It was changed after his death. I don't remember exactly when, but I'm sure it was after I left HQ, which was in the spring of 1986.

That's funny, George. Yes, it's obvious they are either reading from a script or that they have a macro set up so they just hit a key that generates the answer they think fits the question.

What cracked me up was the first person telling me twice that I'd gotten their Internet chat support. I'm the one who accessed it, so I sorta already knew that.

What was even funnier was that the online chat person and the second person I got on the phone told me they could help after I told them very specifically what I wanted help with. And then after long pauses and diddling around, both said, "Sorry, I can't help you with that."

The particularly annoying thing was that the first time I called, one of the things on the voice mail menu was "Internet phone support." However, the interactive portion of the system was down, so I had to wait for a live person for 45 minutes anyway. Then the second time I called, when the interactive voice mail had been supposedly fixed, there was no option anywhere for phone problems.

What a fiasco. I was annoyed and at the same time amused at the ridiculousness of it all.

The good news is that I haven't found any difference between the quality of my phone service after the switch from AT&T to my cable provider, with unlimited long distance and the same features I had with AT&T, but for $40 less per month. I tried to get a better rate with AT&T before switching, but I got a worse runaround from them than from my cable company. The problem of poor customer service is pretty universal.

Every time I call customer service for my cable, my antivirus software, my computer--anything--the scenario is similar to the following. Today I wanted to find out how to set up the voice mail box on my new Internet phone. Installation took two attempts by the subhuman subcontractors sent on this mission by my cable company. That's another whole story that I won't bore you with.

This first conversation below is a transcript of my online chat encounter with my Internet provider’s customer service department that was e-mailed to me. I used the online chat option because when I called the company's customer service department, its interactive voice mail system wasn't working ("but our engineers are aware of this problem and are working on it").

Here's the transcript:

Konee: Hello! Thank you for choosing [our] Internet

technical Chat. My name is Konee M. How may I assist you?

Linda: Hi. I had your company install my Internet phone service this week, and the installer was out of instruction booklets. I need to find out how to set up my voice mail.

Konee: You are connected to Internet technical Chat.

Linda: I know that.

Konee: I will definitely guide you in the right direction to get this issue resolved. Feel free to ask questions along the way.

Konee: Before we begin, please provide the following three pieces of information to verify your account and to document this

interaction for future reference:

1. The account holder's 10 digit telephone number. (xxx-xxx-xxxx).

2. The account holder's Full Name (First and Last)

3. Please tell us your name.

Linda: xxx-xxx-xxxx Linda Zxxxxxx Linda Zxxxxx

Konee: Thank you. I understand that you need to setup your voice mail.

Linda: Yes

Konee: You are connected to [our] Internet technical Chat.

Linda: I know.

Konee: Unfortunately, we do not have any information regarding phone

service.

(long pause)

Konee: Linda, I wish I could assist you further. However I don't have

the specific tools to resolve your issue. I can help you by providing the

contact information for the appropriate department, who will assist you with

your voice mail request.

Linda: (thinking, “Oh, you mean the number where I’ll be placed on hold for an hour because their interactive menu thingy is kaplooey? THAT phone number?”) Okay, thank you.

Konee: Please contact them at xxx-xxx-xxxx (the number I had called in the first place).

Konee: They work 24 X 7.

Konee: I have documented all the necessary notes that would help you in your next contact.

Konee: I apologize as our session cannot conclude the resolution due to limited tools and information however please be assured that they will definitely assist you with your issue.

Linda: Okay, thank you. Bye.

So I call the phone number and (what a surprise!), I’m put on hold for 45 minutes. The person who finally answers is very nice, but gives me completely inaccurate instructions (“call your own number and use the last 4 digits of your SS# as the PIN).

I do as instructed. I get a recording. “Your login was unsuccessful. Please try again.” I try again. Several times. Nada.

I call customer service again and get voice mail message hell, but at least it's working now. I'm told: “Press 1 for support with cable TV. Press 2 for support with Internet access."

I’m waiting for option 3, help with my Internet phone. That would be too easy. So I press “0.” I finally get another person, very pleasant, but for whom English is obviously a second language.

George: How can I help you?

Linda: I need instructions for setting up my Internet phone voice mail. I called earlier, but the instructions I was given didn’t work.

George: I can help you with that. What is your phone number? Address? Name?

Linda: xxx-xxx-xxxx, etc.

George: You’re having trouble setting up your voice mail?

Linda: Yes.

Goerge: This is Internet support.

Linda: Phone support wasn’t on your menu.

George: I’m sorry. I will transfer you to the department that provides phone service support.

Linda: (through clenched teeth) Okay, thank you.

George: Have a wonderful day!

Linda: (to myself) Yeah, yeah, wonderful day.

Finally, I get someone who (a) speaks English and (b) gives me the correct info. “Dial this access number and follow the prompts.” Simple. It only took 2 hours of my Saturday to get it!!

Isn’t outsourced customer service a beautiful thing??

I still enjoy watching the Leave It to Beaver reruns on TV Land.

I think it's a pretty realistic glimpse into being a kid in the 50s. Not all of us had dads who wore suits and ties, but I'll bet most of us got ourselves into the same kinds of messes "the Beav" and his friends did. And Ward (the dad) was portrayed as not being perfect. He screwed up lots of times, but always admitted it. I don't think I ever saw June (the mom) do anything wrong, though.

Is it real, or is it Mammarex?

IMO, The Way Corps could have been a good thing, but it was poorly executed.

Too much responsibility was delegated to too many people, too fast. Those people were too inexperienced and had too little training, education, and supervison.

I think instead of letting the program grow slowly and naturally, VP et al saw it as a cash cow and pushed to get as many people signed up as possible. It was sold as a program for people with natural leadership ability who wanted to serve God and God's people. Instead it became a program for anyone who could "get their sponsorhip together," and it attracted many people who, under the self-delusion of "running to serve" were running to climb the twi ladder.

There were plenty of people in the Corps who didn't have a thimbleful of leadership ability, natural or otherwise, and who were extremely immature, in years and in spiritual awareness. They went out "on the field" and ordered people around, broke up thriving fellowships, and made a general mess of things.

I have a hunch that if VPW had allowed George Je$$, a quiet, humble, wise man, to continue to oversee the Corps program, it might have turned out a lot differently. Instead he put wet-behind-the ears LCM and other equally inexperienced, big-personality people in charge of the Corps and other twi programs. Why? Because they knew how to work a crowd. Or, in the case of Ms. Rivenbark, who couldn't work a crowd of starving people if she was throwing steaks and lobsters to them, she knew how to manipulate people who could work a crowd.

It's not enough to feel superior to the non-Christians - folks have to feel superior to each other too. And the other faiths aren't any better, the arguments among pagans about whose traditions are more authentic and who can be called a real Wiccan are reminiscent of the looking-down-the-nose attitude of the Christians that II know

It's also true in corporations, in neighborhoods, in schools, in just about anything involving people. I believe they call it human nature.

Isn't the idea of most religions to aspire to a higher nature? Yet every one of them has its hierarchy, in-fighting, and all the worst characteristics of humanity. Adherents of the various sects of the Muslim religion are killing each other daily and have been for centuries. The Palestinians and the Jews can't seem to figure it out. The Catholics and Protestants in Ireland don't have a great track record. Holy cow! (with apologies to anyone of the Hindu faith reading this).

One of the first and best lessons my parents taught me was that I should never consider any other type/class/race/group of people inferior to me, to make myself feel superior. I like to think I learned that lesson well, and I try not to let that kind of thinking creep into my pea brain, but if I'm brutally honest with myself, I know that at times I've fallen prey to it, usually when I'm feeling insecure. Maybe that's the problem of religions. Perhaps they have collective inferiority complexes!

Thanks! I just spend almost an hour reading the postings. OMG! As I read I began to remember some of the stories I heard a long time ago. Memory is so strange. Thanks again!

Hi Holly...welcome.

I believe "LEAD" stood for Leadership, Education, Adventure, Direction, but my memory isn't what it used to be. :B)

The test you refer to was initially called the "solo," but later they changed it to "duo" to represent you and God. I did have some food that I'd saved...a bag of gorp and some other stuff. My duo was, I think, somewhere between 48 and 60 hours. They came for me in the nick of time, right after I stood up inside my "hootch" and knocked the whole thing down and just as it started to rain.

I was told afterwards that there were LEAD staff patroling the area where our hootches were, to make sure we were okay, so maybe they should have called it a "trio." :)

I like camping. I like the great outdoors. I did not like the rock climbing or the hiking with 50 lbs. of cooking utensils on my back.

Praying for God to hold you close and help you through your grief.

(((Sogwap)))

Hahahaha, Raf, your reference to ashes triggered an ad at the bottom of the page for "cremation unrs." I don't know which is funnier, the fact that it showed up or the fact that some poor, dyslexic soul couldn't spell a 4-letter word. I'm not making fun of dyslexia; I actually have dyslexic moments myself. But you'd think someone would actually proofread an ad before posting it for all the world to see.

Back to the topic: Happy whatever it is, WW!

I was in la-la land w/ George.

All I know is I was in Los Angeles. I think I watched it on TV as it was happening, but I'm not sure. At the time I was more interested in exploring inner space than outer space.

I was in twi for 17 years; 4 of those were spent at HQ and 2 at Rome City.

I never saw or knew of anyone held against his/her will. I never saw or heard of food withheld as any kind of punishment. I never saw or heard of anyone beatean with boards.

There was a young guy who used to come to a home fellowship I went to pre-twi. He got into the group that's the subject of the first post. We went to see him. We were not permitted to see or speak with him. This was way before there was much about cults or abusive religious groups in the media, and we were young ourselves, or maybe we would have called the cops and asked why we couldn't see our friend. I hope he woke up and left the group.

So, innies, may we have a sample from the latest Way Mag of an article by the lovely Rosalie herself? Can you scan something and post it? (Or if you don't want to post it yourself, scan it and email to me and I will post it.)

mmm... so many Waymag articles weren't really inspirational when I left...they sound even worse now.

Does Rosalie actually write anything for the Way Mag? As the prez, I'd think she'd have to, but she's more of a behind-the-scenes kinda gal, pulling the strings from backstage.

Twinky, it would be interesting to see an example of what twi is putting out in print these days, but keep in mind that we can't post whole articles on here without violating copyright laws. Someone could post a paragraph or two, though, if the source were cited.

that's why I couldn't read that awful thing he supposedly wrote. that book. R&E or whatever it was. I feel really sorry for anyone who had to ghost-write to his standards.

I don't know if it changed after I left Way Pub in '86, but when I was there, no one ghost-wrote for LCM, unfortunately. He did it all by himself. We editors used to use a phrase to describe his writing that's similar to the subtitle for this thread: "Why use one word when ten will do?" Editing his writing was like trying to untangle a bag of yarn that a litter of kittens had been playing with--in the mud. And to change anything, we had to get the approval of his sec'y, who sometimes guarded his words as if they were inspired by God Himself.

There were were several good writers on Way Mag when I started there. Of course that was when David C was editor, before Rosalie expanded her empire to include Way Pub. Under her rule, not many of them stuck around. Many of the other authors of magazine articles, however, weren't writers at all. They were mostly twi "leaders" who had something they wanted to write about or who were asked to write an article.

I haven't seen a Way mag in a couple decades, but I have no doubt that under RFR, the writing became more and more as Chockfull describes it.

I don't foresee there ever being a healthy dialogue with any leader or member of any offshoot on this board. I can only imagine what it must feel like. Probably a lot like slathering oneself with honey and standing on a hill of red ants.

I've never been to a CFF meeting and have no interest in going to one. I have no stake whatsover in SOWERS and no current relationship with any of its board or staff. In other words, I have no interest in defending anything except everyone's right to express themselves here without being treated with disdain and having every word picked apart right out of the gate.

What's real despicable to me.. they have done this to a feeble minded kid. No, not the guy posting here.. but v2p2. He is barely out of college.. bachelor's degree. Why isn't he going after a master's if he's so brilliant? Or developing himself along professional lines? I can only guess.. but when he graduated, *somebody* said "now that you've got that out of your system, it's time to get with it.."

Do you really think calling the group's leader "feeble-minded" will open the door to a constructive dialogue? "I can only guess" pretty much sums up most of your comments to date about that little group in Mississippi, doesn't it?

They named him after the "greatest" mogster they thought they knew.. He responds only to praise, that I can see.. ask a couple of hard questions and he doesn't have any more use for you..

"They" being VP2's parents? I'd say they named him after his grandfather, and I have a hunch "they" knew him pretty well, warts and all. How do you know he responds only to praise? Is it because he didn't answer your barrage of questions? If their tone was as accusative as the ones you've fired at Caleb, I don't blame him. He's not obligated to answer you.

and he is surrounded by yes men of the lowest degree, in my opinion.. but he can't withstand them. He's feeble-hearted. Can't turn down the praise or worship.. "a great man of god"??

I knew one of those men quite well and was acquainted with another. Neither was a "yes man" when I knew them, and neither was of "the lowest degree."

where did that start? That's another good question.. was the group INSTRUCTED in this, and by whom?

Did you never think any of twi's leaders were "great men of God" when you were young and eager?

more questions.. well, if you're still kicking around here Caleb.. please forward these to the board along with the rest.

I'm sure Caleb will jump at the chance to act as your messenger boy after the warm welcome he's received here.

Rascal, thanks for trying to give a new poster a chance. You too, Tzaia.

Okay, so Caleb made a misstep when he alluded to being ready to fight. He's 22. He's probably been reading all the criticisms of the group he's in, some of which have been nothing more than pure speculation, and maybe he came in with a bit of a chip on his shoulder. In that one regard he got off on the wrong foot. So? I was 22 once, too. Were any of you, those who are so miffed that he hasn't responded to your demands to answer the grilling he's gotten, ever 22 years old and enthusiastic about something? Apparently not.

At least he apologized for the harsh words in his first post. But that wasn't enough for some people around here. Apparently they expect him to walk in here, denounce the group he apparently enjoys being in, and not only that, but to answer for every freaking wrong thing that was ever done under the twi banner. That's asking rather a lot, don't you think?

Caleb, I'll say it again. Welcome. And thank you for apologizing. If you decide not to come back, please don't go away thinking everyone here wanted to shout you down, because that's not the case. I wish you the best, whether you stay or go.