Linda Z

Thanks for the suggestions.

Paw, I do have IE8, which I've found to be a lot more buggy than 7 was. I guess I'll have to DL firefox. My sister's been bugging me for ages to get it. I resist change when it comes to computers.

BTW, when a page doesn't fully load, neither does that window with the "IP Board" in it.

I'll try your link to my PMs later.

I already tried clicking on my name, on the little down arrow in the box my name is in, and even the "picture" next to my name. I get no drop-down menu.

Also, I'm having the same problem George St. George is having with not being able to access the last post in a thread. I was able to access the last post in the thread he's talking about, but not in a couple others. The thread seems to stop loading sometimes when there's a YouTube video embedded in a post that comes before the last one.

How do you access your PMs? I know when you first get a message there's a number or something by your name, and you can respond to the message. But if you don't answer right away and want to come back to reply, where do you find them?

I'll add my welcome to the recent SOWERS grad...welcome!

You offered to answer questions. Boy, do the posters on GSC have a good supply of those! :)

Some of the questions asked are good; some of them read like a script for an interrogation. I only have one: Is the intention of the SOWERS group to build on what was good about VP's (the grandfather) organization (specifically, The Way Corps, since that's what SOWERS seems to be modeled after), and do its leaders acknowledge what was not good about it, and are they endeavoring to correct those things?

I'd suggest that you answer the questions you feel qualified and want to answer. You came here volunnarily. You're not obligated to defend or speak for the entire SOWERS organization.

As Sudo says, our beliefs are all over the board. Some people (in the minority here, by far) still hold to all they were taught in PFAL and/or The Way Corps. The rest of us hold beliefs ranging from "similar to what The Way Int'l taught" to believing "a lot of it was BS but some of it was sound" to believing "none of it was true or worthwhile." There are evangelical Christians here, Mormons, Catholics, other Christians, Jews, Pagans, Wiccans, agnostics, and atheists (and probably more categories I don't know about), so be prepared to be disagreed with on a variety of fronts. :D

If you're up to it, slip on your asbestos suit and have at it. If you want to debate doctrine, it would be a good idea to take that to the Doctrinal Forum rather than here. And it would be a great idea to leave the hints/threats of physical fighting on the playground where they belong.

If you see my old pal Fred Sedahl (I knew him when I worked in Way Publications and he was doing PR for twi), please tell him I said hello and that I hope he's doing well!

Good point, Waysider!

Thanks for posting that, Roy. I had missed it on TV, and I'm glad you gave me another chance to see it.

That was a three-Kleenex video clip! Good tears, though!

Exsie, GT said at the beginning of the thread that the chat room is on his "to do" list.

As for rating posts, I think it's a bad idea. I could see this turning into a popularity (or unpopularity) contest. I don't like it.

As Ex said, "I liked your post" works. It's always worked in the past, as has, "I disagree with your post."

I also don't like the idea of closing threads that go off topic.

The posts in the forums are writtern conversations. Conversations here evolve and change, just like face-to-face conversations. Sure, it can be annoying sometimes, but at other times conversations that veer off the track are more useful or interesting than the original topics.

I just don't trust the mother in this case.

Please note which forum I posted this in. I thought it was funny.

"A 16-year-old girl thought she heard her mother being assaulted by her boyfriend and rounded up some friends who beat him up, only to learn later that the couple actually were having sex, the woman and police said. The girl misinterpreted the woman's amorous screams, and she and four other teens went to the woman's bedroom in the Torrington home on June 6, police Lt. Bruce Whiteley said Thursday.

"One of the teens beat the 25-year-old man with a bat and others punched him, police said. He suffered a black eye and several bruises."

The whole story is at:

http://www.rr.com/news/news/article/rr/6818193/8233768/Police_Conn_teens_mishear_sex_screams_beat_man

This reminds me... We used to have fellowship at our apartment on Sunday mornings. Every Sunday, like clockwork, a couple in our complex had sex during our fellowship time, and the woman was very vocal. Needless to say it added some humor to the weekly meetings, especially in the early summer when we (and apparently the two lovers) had our windows open.

Dear Kit:

I've been praying for Fred and will continue to do so. Please give him my love.

And here's some for you, too

Isn't faith, by definition, not following the senses?

I don't believe using your brain (and your senses) is mutually exclusive with having faith in things that can't be detected by the senses. I believe we get information both through physical means and spiritual means.

I kinda wonder if you do. I know as a buhleever sorta guy it seemed the normal response to any view contrary to the orthodoxy was to simply dismiss it out of hand. "Well, he's an unbeliever, so naturally he doesn't understand the greatness of blah, blah, blah..." Without ever really condsidering that view at all. Of course just considering a view not based on some Bible verse is viewed rather dimly in Buhleeverville as well, no matter the brand.

I think one thing we all need to remember when posting here is that, contrary to popular opinion, we didn't all have the mindset you're describing. I did my share of bleating like a sheep on some points of doctrine, for sure, but I never felt compelled to buy everything at face value that twi was selling, nor did I ever feel that non-wayfers didn't know anything or that I couldn't learn from them. I questioned plenty of twi doctrine. I didn't make a big fuss about it; I pretty much kept it to myself or only discussed it with a few close friends, but there was plenty I disagreed with.

And I would still maintain that actions such as seen in the video are indeed a natural progression from accepting a dogma at face value, without subjecting it to any sort of proof. You simply can't get to that kind of whacked-out behavior without first making a habit of rejecting skepticism if favor of being "faithful"...

This time you've added a little more detail to your statement and I understand better what you're saying. However, in my opinion, the proof you refer to is sort of a moot point, isn't it? I can no more "prove" what I believe than you can "prove" that everything I believe is false and vice versa.

What you want to believe or not is your business. You certainly don't answer to me. (Aren't you glad? :) ) I get annoyed, though, when it is stated or implied (IMO repeatedly) that any person of faith has taken complete leave of his or her senses.

This is the natural progression of things when one abandons reason and embraces "faith" and it's related dogma. Not a pretty sight...

While I agree that it's not a pretty sight (horrifying is the adjective I'd use for the treatment of that young man), I disagree that "this is the natural progression of things" or that one must "abandon reason" to embrace faith.

My Christian faith isn't even on the same planet--no, not in the same universe--with behavior like that shown in the video.

We get your point, George. You've made it often enough that my two dogs ought to be able to get it. I think even my cat (she's a little slow) is catching on.

I'm not sure, George. I don't think Aramaic was his "thing," but I could be wrong.

Penworks, thanks for confirming and clarifying what I thought I remembered. At my age you can never be too certain. :lol:

By the way, we must have worked together, or at least been acquainted, since I was in Way Pub from 82-86 and had fairly frequent contact with the Research Dept. on the material we edited and they reviewed. I'll PM you.

Frank, here's a sweet bit of trivia about your movie, from IMDb:

"While Christopher Reeve was filming this movie, the local theater decided to show his latest hit Superman (1978). Many of the "Somewhere" cast joined the locals for the event. Early into the screening, the sound went out. Reeve, who was seated next to Jane Seymour, stood up in the audience and delivered all the lines."

Can you imagine being in the audience when that happened?

If you liked Somewhere in Time, check out the book Time and Again by Jack Finney, written in 1970. The movie isn't based on that book...well, not exactly. The person who wrote the book the movie was based on (in 1975) "borrowed" liberally from Finney's book, and in fact called his character "Prof. Finney."

Finney's book also involved an old coin, a hotel room, and a love that spanned time. In Finney's book, the time-travelling main character is an artist in an ad agency and the setting is New York City. It's an illustrated novel; the illustrations are supposed to be done by the main character.

Time and Again is one of my all-time favorite novels and is my all-time favorite time-travel story. I always thought Somewhere in Time was based on it, until today when I looked it up. So thanks to you, Frank, I learned something. :) Well, two things. I also learned that Jack Finney wrote The Body Snatchers, basis for the classic horror movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

By the way, it's a collection agency. :D

I thought of this when I saw "H**** P*****'s Connections":

At least he's no longer connected by Velcro to RFR. That's gotta be an improvement!

Sounds like just another peddler of illicit goods.. And if he received his information from the source the lawsuit claims, his goods are pretty worthless at that!

Actually, I've heard from rabidly anti-twi exwayfers that twi's Aramaic Interlinear and the other Aramaic book they published (I forget what it's called) are highly regarded and sought after. Other of twi's books might have been plagiarized, but those weren't. Some genuine scholars (who were university-trained in Aramaic or had spent decades studying it) spent years working on them. I don't think VPW had much to do with their content, and I'm sure LCM had nothing to do with it.

I wouldn't know firsthand if it's true that they're good because I never owned them or read them, and even if I had, my exposure to Biblical Aramaic amounted to maybe 4 whole weeks of classes in the Corps. So I'm hardly an authority, but I have heard from a few people who are into studying Biblical languages and such that they're well done. *shrug*

I find it surprising that the Wikipedia article doesn’t mention the book They Speak with Other Tongues by John L. Sherrill, who also coauthored The Hiding Place, God’s Smuggler, and The Cross and the Switchblade. I read it in about 1971, not long before I got into twi. Sherrill was a reporter for Guideposts magazine. He had heard about SIT (it's a handy acronym; too bad, twi, I'm taking it back), and he was skeptical about it but ended up having a life-changing experience as a result of his investigation. I haven't read it again lately, but back then I found it fascinating.

Waysider said (my comments in blue):

Speaking in tongues already existed before and during the lifetime of Christ.

Why didn't he ever encourage people to speak in tongues?

I think there's an answer to that question, but if I told you what I think it is, we'd end up in doctrinal, and I don't go there. :)

Again, please note that I have specifically used the Way acronym, "S.I.T."

That's because I'm referring specifically to the "WAY" teachings regarding the topic.

How did you feel when you discovered that speaking in tongues is not an exclusive activity of Christians and that it is not an ability bestowed solely upon the "born-again" or proof of the "new birth"?

I thought it was interesting and I thought (and I'm still certain) that there's plenty we don't know about the things of God.

Those items are contrary to TWI doctrine, thus the TWI doctrine (of S.I.T.) is bogus.

There are plenty of things contrary to twi doctrine that were and are very much a part of me and what I believe. This doesn't concern me much. :D

In all honesty, the way VPW led people into tongues in session 12 of PFAL was almost identical to how it was introduced to me, only when I first did it I'd never heard anyone do it and hadn't even heard that it existed. The difference was that I wasn't in a room full of people who expected it of me. It was just me, my ex, and the hippie Christian neighbor who knocked on my door a few minutes after I prayed to God for help, saying, "God told me you needed help." (I'm sure I've said it in a post before: That got my attention!)

I think where VPW/twi went wrong on the subject was in expecting everyone to do it on command, right then and there in session 12, whether they wanted to or not.

Come to think of it, this ties in with the thread I started on forced witnessing in twi. I believed the whole time I was in twi that witnessing should be a naturally occurring, spiritually inspired act, not something people were pushed to do. Likewise, I don't think people should have been coerced or "peer-pressured" by class instructors and "grads" to SIT. I believe that's why some faked it; they felt compelled to "perform."

Same with interpretation and prophecy in the intermediate class--hence all the repetitive messages. And the old intermediate class was a piece of cake to compared to the later E**l B****n version. I knew people who quit going to fellowship over that one--they were scared to death they were going to "do it wrong" after he introduced all the rules and regs, like "the length of the interpretation must be close to the length of the SIT" and all that hogwash. It was another example of twi trying to legislate and regulate spirituality.

Thanks for the clarification, Now I See. I did misunderstand where you were going with your comments.

Ok, I'll bite...

Why can't people heal at their own pace, why does there have to be an attitude police here that mandates nothing derogatory be said about VPee?  People react differently to the news of VPee's pervertedness, the many horrors of his life and twi's rule.  Why is there this constant  attempt to regulate everyone's own response to that?  

People will forgive when THEY'RE ready to forgive, everyone's timeline is different, I don't think it can be mandated by someone else.  I think being an example of it (forgiveness) is a bigger witness than beating someone over the head with it.

Now I See, as I said in my first post, it has nothing to do with VPW and nothing to do with whether one chooses for forgive him. My objection is not about him. To call someone you consider evil by a negative term that's used for a whole nation of people is a slur against those people. The insult is to Germans.

I don't see any "attitude police" here. I see people disagreeing. It happens.

And Garth, lots of Americans called Japanese people "Japs" during and after WWII, too, in a derogatory way, but by now we surely know that there are many fine Japanese people and they are not the enemy. Neither are Germans still our enemies.

This is the last thing I have to say on the subject, because you, Garth, have clearly "dug in" on this topic and think you're right. It's your privilege, but your arguments don't fly with me.

Socksness:

I have nothing to contribute for the most part so I don't post much. Big whoopdee doo. If you don't care....

I care. You're one of the people I consider well balanced on the topics at hand. You call a spade a spade but you don't use it to bury everyone. I appreciate that. A lot.

Garth, RR is absolutely right.

National/ethnic slurs are intended to do one thing and one thing only: degrade a whole group of people by implying they all fit a negative stereotype. I thought you were smarter.

RR, I didn't get it. Your Nazi analogy sounded like you were applying it to her logic. Mea culpa.

And hey, trolls at work are nothing new. I probably wouldn't even notice another one.