Eyesopen

Garth, thanks for both links. They're very informative and the one on Arians gives a less 'religiously' charged history. Puting the two together I may come up with something closer to the actual truth.

Maybe I just don't get out much, but it seems to me that most people, trinitarian or not, Christian or not, believe in an afterlife of some sort, and a post-death consciousness. (I'm not advocating for or against, that just appears to be what folks believe). If I recall my early TWI days correctly, we sure seemed in the minority, believing that the dead were truly dead, with no consciousness or existance after death.

Gotta admit the twi doctrine that the dead are dead really was a tough pill to swallow. But then again I was raised Roman Catholic and never really gave much thought to what I believed about the dead until twi brought it up. I'm still a bit torn on the subject, given the biblical references and all...

The Arians were a huge "faction" up until the time of Charlemagne (c.800AD?); it is arguable that it was Charlemagne's support of the Roman heirarchy that put the nail in the Arian coffin.

You are correct the Arians were one of the 'factions' that were part of the church in the second through fourth centuries and beyond but they stopped being quite so vocal after the death of Constantine who was an Arian follower for most of his life, rather he favored the Arian interpretation only actually 'becoming' a Christian on his death bed. He ran interferrence for them quite often. Before that Bishop Arian and a huge coalition of his followers were in and around Alexandria preparing for their big meeting in Rome where they would meet with the orthodox faction so that they could vote. Something conveniently delayed them and the orthodox faction did not wait in fact they held that particular vote first.

This subterfuge caused a huge rift in the already divided church as the Arians didnt take it lying down. But as I said they lost a lot of support when they lost Constantine. And not long after his death public opinion turned against them sharply when the Nicean creed was 'enforced'; anyone professing anything other than what it said were considered heretics and subject to execution.

This however did not slow down the Gnostics who also worked from within the Catholic church but they were quite a bit sneekier than the vocal Arians. But in the end they had to run for their lives and ended up burying most of their major books in a jar in the desert to preseve them from the fires and book burnings that Rome was sponsoring.

What culture in the entire world would revere a parent that gave up their child instead them self? That theology right there is a good plug for the trinity--because it only seems loving when you view Jesus as god, when the sacrifice was all his to make.

I can truly understand the logic behind this statement and on the surface I can agree with it. But I think that the fact that Jesus gave his life freely as a sacrifice was a true statement of his love for those that he did not know. The fact that his Father stood by and allowed him to do so without wigging out shows me how much he loved and trusted his son. Not to mention the fact that God is God and he can raise anyone from the dead. So he really had nothing to worry about. The fact that Jesus walked out on a limb knowing that he could die forever makes him a more real savior to me. To think that he was really God and wasnt really risking anything because God can't die...just has never worked for me.

I was looking for other 'cults' that taught Jesus as something other than God. I found this:

http://www.eaec.org/cults/unitarianuniversalism.htm

http://contenderministries.org/unitarianuniv.php

http://www.charlestrombleyministries.com/J...the%20Cults.pdf

I also found this cute little ditty:

"A cult is a church down the street from your church." Anon

Good questions all Twinky but I'm afraid that I have no answers.

I was very guarded in my paper. I said what I figured that they wanted to hear and nothing more than I had to say. I remember being told by someone that it needed to show some sort of deliverance from something big. That was (as I was told) so that we could better empathize with someone in big trouble. Kind of along the lines of a cop being pepper sprayed or tased before they are allowed to carry the thing. Funny but we dont have to be shot before we carry a gun. Hmmm...not that I'm complaining mind you. :unsure:

The church has diverse theology, but the SAME Jesus, the center of Christianity. Funny how we used to hear a different take on THAT one.

Geisha even though you didnt answer me directly after re-reading your posts I found my answer here in this comment. I believe that Tom pointed out that this 'unanimous' belief of Jesus was not always unanimous. In fact they had a meeting and a vote and conveniently held the vote when most of the opposing faction could not be present. Once they had come to a conclusion and 'voted' in their version of Jesus they summarily shunned, ostricated and often killed the remaining members of the opposition. You might also find it interesting to know that there was more than one faction that in fact did not believe that Jesus was God. So you see Christianity did not always have the 'same' Jesus of which you speak.

It was also pointed out by Tom that Jesus' own followers didnt even know who he was until God told them. Now mind you I'm not making an argument for or against Jesus being God, I'm just saying that there is a lot more to the story here and a lot of history that you may or may not be aware of. I'm also saying that maybe it's just a bit over my head and like T-Bone I'm gonna believe that God and /or Jesus Christ are big enough to overlook some honest confusion and misconception from us mere mortals.

BTW thanks T-Bone I dont know about 'wisdom' but I thought that this needed to be said again:

we have an organization that entangles followers in an artificial world of life-sucking delusions

Great mental picture here!

Chockfull could you provide us with a link? That sounds intriging.

*Stepping out of the light, into the darkness*. That says it all. :)

Heehee that brought a smile

As protective as *Momma* is and can be, mortality rate among moose cubs seems to be high.

Maybe that's why they have multiple calves at a time. Someone has to feed the bears, we're not supposed to... even at the zoo.

I'm honestly not sure what I would have done in that situation. It could have been a hoot if you were in a 'pull their legs' frame of mind.

If we were "blinded", it was by VP's charisma and ability to hold a firm hand of control on his enterprise.

You make a very good point here, one that I believe Oak was also making earlier before the 'definition of cult' discussion. But in my mind this brings up yet another 'hotly' debateable issue...was vp a false prophet? If he was then does it not follow that his 'charisma and ability to hold a firm hand of control' could have been part of 'his' true masters plan?

I realize that this opens a huge can of worms and I am not debating either way at this point. I am just pointing out that 'satanic blindness' could be introduced by a human element.

I am coming at this topic of cults from a Christian POV. That is how we define a cult in the church.

I am also curious what church it is that you represent. It interests me because if it is such a big church or as you intimate all of Christianity they why does the definition of 'cult' in the dictionary not reflect their specific point of view? I would think that they would at least be a foot note or a reference. But Encarta has this for a definition:

cult [ kult ] (plural cults)noun

Definition:

1. religion: a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader

2. religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false

Notice that it does not say 'what' beliefs, but it does point out that the beliefs are 'regarded by others as...' Does this make those beliefs wrong? The main factor that makes a cult a cult is the way that it is run and the type of person that runs it. The words 'misguided, unorthodox, extremest and false' are a huge part.

Sorry Dot, I know that I'm off topic but this kind of bugs me, and I am just looking for a simple answer.

matilda, that was a very eerie account! You are quite the writer...I could almost feel the breeze from the water and sand between my toes. Gotta love the way Angels just take control of a situation and steer it in the right direction.

It is so good to hear that despite the focus of twi and other cult groups being on the negative there was and is God's presence among us helping us out when we least expect it. Who knows what may have happened had they not intervened in our lives when they did.

One thing I do have to say about being brought up in the Southern Baptist cult is that I was taught who Jesus Christ is and His significance. The Way cult never took that from me. I loved Him in both cults. I love Him to this day. He loved me in all my many cults. Am I allowed to post here?

Unlike you the cult/church that I was raised in didnt teach me about Jesus. But I had taken some time (not much mind you) to come to my own conclusions based upon what they did say and what the Bible said. But when I got to twi I didnt really have a personal relationship with him and these many years later I have to consciously throw him into the mix when I'm talking to God.

When I left twi I put down my bible because I believed that I was unworthy to read it. I was after all possessed and unsalted as well as a covenant breaker. What right did I have to read His word or speak to Him? My Bible always sat on the small table top podium that I had purchased for it. But other than dust it occassionally I never picked it up to read. Then in 2001 I found out that LCM had been kicked out of the Corps and I reexammined my belief system, especially the part about forgiveness and righteousness and I picked up my Bible to read. It was slow at first...I would hear the voices of vp and lcm in my head 'expounding' on one verse or another and it was difficult to hear the words themselves through their ranting. But eventually the voices quieted and I could 'hear' the words of the Bible as i read them.

The further in time that I get from twi the less that old teachings or teachers invade my thinking. I read more than I once did and I read it for pleasure! That was something that I never learned in twi. They talked about reading for pleasure but when did I have time? I can still summon the voices if I want to hear or remember what their particular take on some thing was, mostly so I can discern how not to interpret a verse but usually I just let the Bible speak for itself. I have found that although it is not perfect in its present form it is not necessary to study our tails off with a dozen different lexicons and such to understand what God wants us to understand. He is perfectly capable of helping the eyes of our understanding become enlightened without the extra books, but we do need to ask and be open to the answer.

Whew! Sorry for the delay in responding Chas...the last few days have been very busy.

I think that your friend was probably correct. As I recall God or Angels under His direction (or His Son's) dont need to give you a brand new Mercedes to get you to work everyday. More often than not they do things that are much simpler, like give a lost hitchiker a ride or push someones car out of a snow bank or feed a bunch of hungry kids. Certainly the fact that it's not a Mercedes doesnt detract from the blessing or the joy that the intervention brings.

I believe a lot of them (angels) work as RN's.

That is highly possible and on that same note many are probably in other 'public servant' places where they can come and go unseen.

Satanic blindness, what an interesting concept. I also had read those verses and thought that they did not pertain to me. But I like so many others put my Bible aside for many years after leaving twi. After all I no longer needed to read it I had all the answers. But when I did pick it up again the scriptures unfolded to me like a wonderful exotic flower in all of its glorious colors and grandure.

The one thing that really hit home for me was something that when I was just a 'babe' in twi I had been pondering and just beginning to understand and that was the body of Christ and how it worked together. I had come full circle from the days before the hurtful 'biblical research and teaching ministry' to the reclaiming of my life and of my true sonship rights after twi. Each time I pick up the book and read something more of the inner workings of the body or how something else actually relates to it or leads up to it, is revealed to me.

The Bible really is a gloriously wonderful book and God does help you understand it if you ask or are open to Him. I am so very glad that you found a way so that you could reach into the book and get some good out of it again.

Where did you find this about Satanic blindness. I can google it but I would like to know what you are reading from.

It's certainly a stretch to interpret this as meaning that they no longer ministered to us after we were born again.

Well we all know (experiencially) that twi was very good at streeeeeetchhhinggg verses of the bible to make it say what they wanted all the while telling us that 'others' did this very same thing.

You know I didnt ask my Angel for his ID...but that was because I was too busy flapping my gums at him. Poor soul! He had to have pulled the short stick!

Sometimes I wonder what it is like seeing the world and mankind as a whole from their point of view. They are charged with watching over us...do they make more rescues like so many of you have described than say a hundred years ago? Are they jealous of us or feel sorry for us? Do they like their jobs? What will they do when this world is done away and the next begins? VP made it sound like they were lesser beings than us but I think that they are just different beings than us.

Ok I'll stop thinking out loud now.

Woo Hoo! Look we got moved! Is that a good thing?

Paul Mosqueda told me I was turned over to Satan, supposedly as a result of my son and me being homosexuals.

I just love how they used this tiny piece of scripture to harm the body of Christ. They were also famous for using the ole 'mark and avoid' and the ever popular 'dust off your feet' clips to harm the body. Red flags and alarms should have been going off like gang busters over this stuff. But even if we didnt agree many of us were trapped by our own twi 'beliefes' that you do not question the revelation of the man of Gawd. It was a horrible twisted circle that made most of us unwilling and often unknowing co-conspirators to the mental raping and destructive abuse of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Speaking as a cop...that jackfoot gives good cops a bad name! I see no excuse for that type of abhorrant behavior from a "public" servant.

I dont know Twinky, I think I would like to see what kind of emissions your car gives off now that its been cleaned out by Angel propulsion!

My parents came from large families as did their parents and I am also from a large family. So when making meals when I was young mom would always have some huge pot simmering full of something on the stove. But as the years went on her large brood thinned down considerably until at last all that was left was yours truly the baby of the family. Mom adjusted her pot size to accomodate the smaller family but still we would find ourselves eating a meal several days in a row. So I asked her why she continued to make so much and her answer both surprised me and continues to stay on my mind to this day and it causes me to see things from a different point of view. She told me that her mother had taught her to always make enough food so that if you should be so blessed you may entertain Angels unaware and have enough to go around. She sited for me the verse and to this day I always make enough food for more than one meal...just in case.

That was just precious!

We sure have some wonderful stories being shared here! Jave brings up a very interesting twist to the concept of Angels. Could they appear as ghosts? Or what we define as ghosts? Throw out all the junk that VP tried to have us swallow about ghosts and such...could some of them be angels? Someone brought up the very real concept of an Angel taking on the likeness or persona of the moment. Assuming the shape of someone that would blend in and not draw undue attention and also at the same time garner trust and immediate acceptance. What if someone believed in ghosts and really needed to hear something from their mom who had passed away. Sunesis pointed out that they are here for us who are heirs to the kingdom.

Socks you made some really neat comments and this is the one that I really related too,

"Allow for the possibility that a larger vision is being realized in life."

I dont know how many times I've heard a sermon where the preacher has told the congregation that they needed to get outside of themselves and stop focusing on only their lives, their is a bigger picture. I think this is why Angels only do what they do to the extent that they do it. For example; some could ask me why the Angel returned me the waiting arms of twi and all the ungodliness that went with it? And I would answer "because that is where i was going and would not accept any other destination." He worked with me where I was at in life and his appearance did change the course of my history.

Angels are here to help us, among other things and I'm so glad that they bother pulling us back onto safe ground when all we want to do is catch the fish or just need to get from poing A to point B or just to watch out for us. I also think that perhaps a person who happens to be doing the 'right' thing by helping a stranger could be considered an Angel of sorts and hopefully we all have had many an experience with these people and perhaps been one from time to time.

maybe they have the capacity for self-loathing..

Now that is an interesting thought.

Ya know Ham, since Lucifer was an angel and he obviously had dilusions of grandure and was just a tad narcissistic and a few other things...I do not doubt that some other Angels may be working through some strong feelings of their own. Just from the stories that are told in the Bible concerning both Angels and the fallen ones it is clear that God gave them emotions and feelings as well. It is clearly possible for them to be 'screwed up'. But I like to hope that the ones that stayed at home arent as screwed up as the ones that got cast down.

What I see from all of these beautiful stories is that God is willing and wants to help us in every aspect of our lives. The smallest of details are attended too. Like in Kit's case she didnt necessarily need to find a new church to help her through a tough time, a church pew would be more than sufficient for the job. DMiller and Sunesis simply needed to get home safely, Socks needed to get to a doctor for his finger and NiKa's dad needed some ammo.

I'm sure that we dont see Angels more often than we actually see them but it is very cool when they show themselves. Another thing that I noticed in the stories is that there was never a moment of hesitation at answering them or taking their direction. No-one asked "What the heck? or Who the heck are you?" or anything like that. DMiller was told to get back in his car and drive. He did. Sunesis wandered around Brooklyn with a complete stranger leading the way. NiKa's dad crawled out of a safe spot on the words of a dead man. Both Socks and the 'mom' followed the direction of a man who was there and then wasn't and Kit found a church pew in an unlikely spot and two unknown men helped her load it in the car. No-one questioned these 'people' except to ask them if they were angels.

It's really amazing how God gave us the standard five senses and an extra sixth one, as well as feelings and emotions to help us decipher and understand not only the world around us but the spiritual realm when it crosses into ours. I actually feel sorry for the folks that deny the reality that occurs all around them for whatever 'logical' reason that they use. They are really missing out on a lot of wonderful and amazing things.

As for that second one of DMiller's...that's just amazing! That kind of thing is just plain biblical to me, burning bush kinda stuff! Very cool!

Perhaps Mr. Ham will grace us with his story now?

Yup DWBH I remember being told that you were pozzezzed with some pretty crazy and powerful debils, but my boyfriend at the time said that he knew you and said that you weren't pozzezzed; you were right. I believed him. He was a jerk and a half but he was seldom wrong about people.

I thought it was a crock when they got on the kick that everybody that disagreed with them was pozzezzed. None of it made any sense. All of their smoke screens sure made a happy playground available if the debil really did want to play, and I bet he did. Tangled web indeed! Thank God I never met Swatratra! :blink:

OKC, The incredible feeling of safety is amazing. There are no real words to describe it but it sure makes a person want to give thanks.

David, let me know if you ever feel like sharing that story. I would love to hear it.

CoolChef, I've never ever done acid in my life. But I understand the skepticism. Michael was there and he didnt believe it, I dont really expect you to either...after all it happened way back in 1986 and you weren't there.

Hee hee George, I think we have all met some 'angels' like that in our lifetimes! I think they might be on probation or something... :blink: