Eyesopen

You know I would truly love to know exactly what you want me to say. Jen-o stated that she believed that the verses in Leviticus are a list of abominations. She posted a few verses that seem to support her position. I Stated that the verses in Leviticus are talking about idolotry and idolotrous practices. I asked her to look at the verses in the beginning of the chapter (since she was fairly adament that she had read the "whole book" and indicated that she was familar with the verses) and I pointed out that it seems clear to me that the subject is idolotry not a listing general abominations. We disagree. I am not likely going to change her mind any time soon. Neither is she going to change my mind any time soon. So what is to discuss?

I dont mind having a discussion or a friendly debate but I flat refuse to argue. I do not need to convince anyone of any position, I'm not telling you that the only way to please God is to be gay. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should change their views. All I did was write a book about what I found and made it available for others if they want to read it. I dont need to justify myself to anyone except God. And I'm sorry Rhino and Jen neither one of you have ascended to the throne.

I for one am happy that in a country that claimes to 'fight' for the freedoms of all people and where in its foundational written documents it clearly states "all men are created equal" that a certain amount of freedom is finally being afforded to a group of people to whom it has been denied. Some would say that those people still had the 'freedom' to love whomever they wished and only denied the term 'marriage'. I would catagorically disagree with this assessment.

This country is the greatest country in the world of that I have no doubt. However many of the laws of this country can find their basis in the moral value system of the ruling order. Those moral values were formed by religion. And frankly I find some of their moral values just as repulsive as I find some of the Moslem moral values. On this issue of homosexuality I whole heartedly disagree with the biblical interpretation that says God hates homosexuality.

Just as most of us, while in TWI I spoke out against homosexuality and used those same tired verses to justify my narrowmindedness. Then a few years ago I was once again asked to show where it says in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin. I returned to those same verses...and we all fell flat. After much study and personal growth I have changed my views.

I dont know if God blesses Cali more or less or or just keeps score, but I for one give the Judges a kudos for doing their job despite public opposition. If the population of Cali wants to overturn the decision they are going to need to approach it legally, with a constitutional amendment. Until that happens I hope a million people get in there and get themselves married.

Here is the alleged contraversial post. I do not make this claim

eyes offers her opinion that homosexual acts are fine according to the Bible. CONTENTIOUS.

I simply say that I have changed my mind after rereading the verses and then studying them and then personal growth. Beyond that all of these other claims that I attacked anyone or was deliberately contentious or even mentioned my book at all...dont seem to be there. And yet I have also been accused of directly attacking in this post...where? I really dont see it nor did I intend to do so with

hints and allegations.

I simply gave my opinion as did many others and was more than willing to leave it at that.

Anyway Kimberly thank you for your kind words. Writing a book of any kind is very rewarding and in some ways difficult. But in the end it is all worth it. Let me know when your book comes out I would be interested in purchasing it.

Dooj, I've seen your work up close and personal...I really think you would have to be drinking 3 day old coffee, taking no-doze and have a gun to your head to paint such a piece. I also think that you are being kind when you say that it has too much energy. Thats kind of like saying a great white has a tooth. For the little amount of actual picture it is way too busy and hurried.

Now as for Blake's stuff. I have to agree that his paintings (at least the two pictured) show two very different directions of thought. Schizo, ya I can see that and they do kind of look like what you would find in a homeless shelter. Could I live with either of them? Not for very long. The second picture intrigues me and I could probably waste several pages of perfectly good paper and ink writing something speculative concerning it but then I would be done and want to move along.

And on to Wain. I love cats so of course I find his stuff adorable and yes I could live with it.

Last but not least on to Le Bump. I love classical art and am always fascinated by the incredible amount of detail that the artist placed in one huge painting. Ceilings and grand walls and such are so packed with so many images that blend by using a central theme. I love how they all go in so many directions at once and use so many different colors and the way that they use shadow and perspective and the actual lighting that hits the surface...just so much I could go on and on. I dont know all the technical terms but the way that the frescos use the architecture and blend with it is simply wonderful to me. Could I live with it? Need you ask?

To be a sin it has to be a choice--

--you could pop dozens of women in front of me, and though I might make a friend or two, or think someone was nice or pretty or had cute mannerisms or was an admirable or talented person, I wouldn't find any of them sexually attractive. It wouldn't matter how wonderful others told me the relationship with one of them would be, it wouldn't work for me, because I'm hetero. If I did get into such a relationship due to social or personal pressure, sex would be a matter of duty similar to a chore. Yuck.

I hear you, I really do...but just as individuals are well...individual so are circumstances and reactions to circumstances. And from what I hear sometimes the sex is worse than a chore. Some have lots of children to stay sane and out of the 'bed' if you know what I mean.

And I think that you hit the nail on the head with your statement "to be a sin it has to be a choice" That is the definition of 'sin' a willful breaking of God's rules...if homosexuality is not a conscious choice then it by definition cannot be a sin. I loved Melissa Etherid*es comment to Sen. Cl!nton, something to the effect of 'do you think that we all just woke up one morning and said, hey I think I'll be homosexual now?' Gotta love the irony in that one.

Mona is alright. It is a nice warm painting and like Dooj I tend to focus on her hands, I think they're lovely. Could I live with it, ya I could endure it in the house.

I attacked

I have to tell you Bramble that I totally agree with you and have witnessed dozens or more gays trying to act and or live the straight lifestyle because of some peer pressure somewhere. It is sad really when you think about how many people live in a marriage usually with children that although they may love their spouse they never really got to live how they felt or where their heart took them. But if they try to come out as your young friend did they get chastised and told that they are 'wrong' somehow.

I read a story recently where a man was talking of a female relative of his that had been a tomboy that actually wanted to be a boy when she was a child. Her 'tomboy' lifestyle continued but 'with propper parenting' she ended up 'fine', married to a man and she has many children, and 'she is very happy'. Forgive me, but how the heck does he really know that? I have known many who could act really well and appeared very happy and some were to an extent...I mean what choice did they have? Really, they could choose to come out of the closet and alienate their family and loved ones or they could find a piece of happiness in the straight life that society chose for them.

My mom always told me to not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. (I'm sure someone else said it first but it was my mom that I remember). I'm not saying that you cant understand how a gay thinks or feels unless you are one...am I...Yes I am. A man cannot truly understand a woman and visa-versa, also a heterosexual cannot truly understand a homosexual and visa-versa. They just dont think the same way. Well, in some things they do. Such as some gay people are disgusted beyond belief to see two people of the opposite sex kiss, just as some heteros are disgusted by watcing two men kiss. But essentially they are different. Perhaps this is why the ancient world saw gay people as holy people and made them priests and priestesses...no joke.

Anyway, I really dont think that the way that the Bible has been handled on this subject is very accurate and it reflects a lot of personal opinion. Anytime God's love is turned to hate especially since the coming of Christ a person should ask themselves if it really is God's will and not man's agenda.

Sir Guess Alot and Roy, You are probably both correct in that no "Isreal" was not around from the beginning but the unseen things of God were. The referrence also emphasizes the fact that 'whoever' the writer is talking about 'knew' ginosko God. I left that out of my short analysis as twi pounded that word into my brain so hard I obviously erroneously thought that everyone had it as a permanent fixture as well. Very few of the 'cosmopolitan' people in Rome or anywhere else in the world could make that claim or have that claim made for them at that time in history. And I dont think that I said that Isreal had been around since the beginning...did it read that way?

The author is, I believe trying to give an example of 'what not to do or this will happen to you', and he is using the closest example possible. He is probably talking to a larger group than just the 'saints' but the message is good for everyone.

As far as homosexual warnings being more about

the division and imbalance of any masculine and feminine "ways of being"

I am curious how you view the two-spirit people and fact that they were and now again are accepted into the communities as liminal people who are granted special wisdom and understanding about both genders to better serve God and their people.

And yes you are correct that fundamental hindus do regard homosexuality as sinful but traditionalist do not. The difference being that the traditionalists did not acquuiesce to the Christian missionaries when they came to shove their religion down their throats as the Muslims had tried to do only a few centuries before.

I dont believe that this is a matter of what everyone else believes I agree with Abi, I walk my own walk.

God first

Beloved Eyesopen

God loves you my dear friend

thanks that bit you added open a door for me thanks

love your picture on your web site but have you got one with your work uniform on

sorry I am not a good spelling too

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Funny you asked this, I just got one today that I was going to post on the site tonight or tomorrow. Its me with my "summer" uniform. Woo Hoo! :)

Love you Roy!

That was quite a breakdown on this painting. Me I'm a bit more simplistic. I like it but it doesnt flip any switches for me. I like the detail that he put into the vases and the rug and in the hair of the girls but as you said Lindy the rest of it is kind of flat and I understand that that was the artists intent but it kind of makes me feel kinda flat. I liked the first one better. It had more depth to me. But hey I'm just a looker and not a doer when it comes to this kind of painting.

Lindy, actually I'm quite happy that you started this discussion. I really don't want to get into any arguments those just end up getting ugly and often end up in the basement. So with great joy I am happy to discuss. Oh and thanks for bringing this to the Doctrinal forum. I just noticed this thread this evening so I'm a bit late but...

Since we're starting with Romans, Roy I dont disagree with you but I think we could expand upon it a bit to get a clearer understanding. As Abi said there is a certain amount of the chapter that does talk about hypocrites. But I really dont want to make this post too long so if we all just start at the beginning of the thought we can all discuss what we see and think as we go through the chapter. I hope that is ok with everyone...if not just say so.

Anyway...Romans 1:17, 18

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith"

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Notice that the writer is referring to all "ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and not all ungodly and unrighteous men. They are verbs not nouns, this is important because it is always good to know who someone is talking about and it clearly shows that he is talking about "acts" not "people".

Romans 1:19, 20

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

This is fairly easy to understand, given the actual time period in which this particular epistle was written it is clear that the writer is referring to Isreal. They were the "things that are made" that God "manifest" Himself in and "shewed it" to them. "It" being the "invisible things" "from the creation of the world" that were "clearly seen" and "understood by the things that are made" including "His eternal power and Godhead" so now those people have "no excuse" for their acts.

These two verses taken in context with the previous verses leads the reader to expect a list of ungodly and unrighteous acts. Which is kind of not what the reader gets.

Romans 1:21

Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful: but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This verse gives us an unexpected turn. Instead of a list of bad things the writer has decided to give a chronological "how it happened" or "how it can happen". The first thing that the "things that are made" did was they did not glorify Him as God, and they stopped being thankful to God...when this was done they then became (which is a cause and effect word) vain or empty in their imaginations or thoughts and their foolish (which means exactly that 'foolish') heart was darkened. The heart as always represents that which a man loves or desires and that became dark or rather 'without light'.

Romans 1:22

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

They 'professed' (to declare or admit openly, to pretend, to declare in words only, to practice or claim to be versed in) themselves (they did the professing no-body did it for them) to be wise, they became (the cause and effect word) fools. They claimed to be wise, they knew it all they according to the previous verse did not worship God as God nor did they thank Him their thoughts became empty and their hearts became dark and they professed their great wisdom while they became fools.

So this post is long enough anyone with more insight? I would love to hear it. It seems pretty clear so far to me but I'm not perfect either.

Now if I could just learn how to spell.

Wow MStar you saw a whole lot more than I did! I guess it just didnt hit that spark for me.

Hey Belle! Where ya been honey? I've missed your posts. How close are you to publishing? I am anxiously awaiting the full book. Oh and thanks for the beer, you know that I can use it and I will drink it...nearly as fast as a Mojito!

Roy, it is always a pleasure to hear you opinion and I consider what you said here as very high marks in my favor. Thank you dear friend! Can't wait to read some of what you have written.

Bumpy, you always come up with some little piece of news that tantilizes my brain cells. Thank you!

Jeffso, I actually would appreciate an honest scolarly discussion on the subject. But you may have noticed that the second I tell my opinion... I am attacked, long before I have a chance to elaborate (that is IF the thread is condusive to it). They claim to want to debate but they only attack and never read all that is written by myself or the Bible. I do not need to justify my findings to anyone nor do I need to "prove" my worthiness to actually study either. I seek to find the truth concerning many things, as do most people. I do not claim to have found the ALL TRUTH nor have I ever claimed such a thing. But I have been accused of that also. I find it funny that so many who were once led by a bull ring now are so unmovable. Anyway, if you wish to discuss it...what the heck. I will discuss it and present some of my views but please do not expect me to copy all of my findings onto GS. That simply would not be right to Paw.

I wish I knew about MOjitos back then.

It is probably a blessing that you didnt...come to think of it, its probably a blessing that I didnt either back then.

Personally, I like the piece but I couldnt live with it. It simply wouldnt match my decor and would probably be too big to put into my bedroom (where I keep a collage of things that I personally like but may not fit in with the rest of the house).

I love the period dress and the garden lamps. It has an 'innocence' about it that I find somewhat wistful. He he I feel like I'm back in Humanities class...this is fun.

I dont know how to post pictures so someone else will have to give us another one to look at.

Well I was working as a waitress to pick up the slack left on my my college education bill before I went out WOW, so when I got on the field I just picked it up again. It was such a great job that had such great tips that my WOW sister quit the job she had gotten and came to work with me. We both loved it!

My second WOW year started out a bit rougher, I broke my back the second week in and was unable to do the waitress gig, so in the fourth week I got a job in a hardware/ department store. It was a tiny town so it was a tiny store. After about a month on the job I got the coveted shipping and receiving position which paid quite a bit more, and was a single person job but it was also a 40 hour a week job. I took it anyway and the Limb Coordinator never let on that he was any wiser. (Looking back I'm pretty sure he knew, but he had another agenda and didnt really care). It wasnt a great job but I was able to heal and still work and be alone while I did it.

So all in all, like Twinky the jobs I had in both years were a blessing and I enjoyed them immensly.

It's amazing sculpture but the realizm is a bit disturbing.

I'm shacked up with someone right now, so I can only give the weather report. Roland Garros (which my uncle won in 1939 in straight sets over Bobby Riggs) will continue to have weather related problems! <_<

Oh I see how it is...invite me to a threesome....

Other than that, we are still trying to corner the oyster market, but keeping one eye out for that former star Oakie linebacker and his gay friend Gear at the Riec port!

Don't strain yourself waiting, I don't think the Oakie has enough Euros to be traveling anywhere.

Edited cuz I stil can't speel!

Peace Baby, jen-o! I mean like maybe you should have spent more time at twi? But if that cat don't hunt, maybe a little European history will do?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080527/D90U5PFGB.html

Peace, Bump

Thanks Bumpy! That was a good article. I have often wondered when the Germans would acknowledge this little piece of their history. Well done.

Why would I not believe you? Isn't the lulu site yours?

Is this not your book? This is from Amazon.

... spent the better part of the last thirty years studying the Bible. Her exploratons have taken her across the country several times and through time hundreds of times. God exhorts us in the Bible to study His words and to also meditate upon these things. She endeavors to do both. Her method of research also include any manner of media that gives more information on the subject. Nothing is rejected out of hand. Eventually everything is sorted and as much is discarded as is kept. But nothing is actually thrown out, as it may prove useful later.

That must have just gotten posted recently as they told me it would be another three weeks. Good to see tho.

eyesopen, i'm not sure what you mean by "took it personally"...

you posted something that i thought was relevant to what i had posted, so i commented on it...

Okay....if you say so, it certainly didn't read that way.

verses 6-14 deal with incest

verse 20 deals with adultery

verse 22 deals with homosexuality

verse 23 deals with bestiality

verse 24 says do NOT defile yourself by doing these things (as other nations have defiled themselves with these practices)

and verse 3 says that these "doings" (practices, deeds, acts) were done by the egyptians and the canaanites, but in contrast "you shall not do them"...

this the PLAIN meaning of the scripture in this chapter...

Exactly! Now all you have to do is remember the topic.

the bible addresses the homosexual act...

and a lifestyle is composed of habitual acts...

i am not so sure why you have not found this addressed in the bible... since clearly it is there, as i have just pointed out...

And this is where I disagree. What you claim is "clearly written" I found to be muddy. That's why I started my little quest to begin with. Contrary to what you might think I did not go into it with a preset conclusion only to work towards that same conclusion (that's not honest). I went at it as if I had no clue and perhaps I still dont. But I stand by what I have learned myself from my own study and not by what someone else has told me that it says. I am truly done with that type of lifestyle. No more "never look outside the Word for answers" No more Way brain for me.

Nice chatting with you also Jen-o

I read your page where you sell your book and a little on Amazon ... I would think it would help if you included your credentials. That is pretty typical. Instead I got the impression that your experience you mentioned was TWI.

Now you hinted about some professor, but I really didn't see anything to sell me on your book. If you have credentials in research or whatever, I'd suggest parading them a little would help sell books.

I'm sure you mean "lulu" since Amazon has yet to get my book on its pages. But that will be soon.

If you want to hear my credentials that's fine but would you believe them if they were stated?

The bottom line is that I do not simply post my entire book, not because I am trying to sell it, but because it really is far too much to post. What I find interesting is that another author also announced their book on GS recently and provided links so that those who were interested might purchase it. She then made available some exerpts from the book and lo and behold everyone was just fine with that. I do not recall hearing (or rather) reading anyone who said that she was "dodging" "copping out" or being "evasive" simply because she wanted to sell her book.

Look if someone here wants to make this thread about me or my book that's fine. But understand that I am not playing with you. I stated my opinion and as requested I stated the reason behind my opinion. That is all. I'm done.

Oh and...God Bless us Everyone!!!

An inspiration to everyone. Rest in peace.

I just loved that show. Sad to see him go.

eyesopen, the reason why i thought it was necessary for me to address your post is because i am the one who stated that God is against homosexuality, i am the one who listed scriptures in support of my position, and i am the only person on this thread who has flat out stated that homosexuality is a sin...

these are the points that your post addressed... further, i am the only one here who has stated that God is not gonna "bless" california because of this...

so if you are not talking to me personally (or someone like me who holds the same perspective as i do), then who are you talking about when you say that you "wholeheartedly disagree with the biblical interpretation that says God hates homosexuality"...

who are you disagreeing with, if not me??

(and why are you so surprised that i would respond to your post?)

You may have been the only one to actually "say" those things but many posts alluded to them.

I am not surprised that you responded to my post, I'm surprised that you took it personally. Had I wanted to make it personal I would have done what I am doing now and directly addressing you or better yet I would have PMed you.

As for the "disagreement" believe it or not this board is not the only place that these sentiments are voiced. I made a blanket statement that you very kindly quoted above. I'm simply stating my opinion just as everyone else here is doing.

yes, i spent time in twi from 94-97...

and you say that the "homo" purge started in the early 90's & ended when lcm left...

i'll have to take your word for that because i was unaware of the specifics of the timeframe for the "homo" purge...

Dont take my word for it I got that information from the various letters and documents stored right here on GS. And as I said I was just using it for reference. If you werent coming from that "mindset" then you did a good impersonation (at least from what I remember from what I read) but I'll 'take your word for it' and apologize for the apparent misunderstanding.

evidently, you think that you have some special information on how to interpret what the bible means when it talks about homosexual acts,

but you don't want to share it??

Actually Jen-o and Rhino I have no special information, I simply did what I was taught to do...I studied. Perhaps if you would for example take that verse in Leviticus (18:22) that everyone likes so much and simply read from the beginning of the chapter. See what the context is and then do some research on what God is referring to...yup that means that you actually have to put the Bible down and read some history. Then return to that verse with a renewed and clearer understanding. It is talking about an idolotrous ritual that was performed by both the Canaanites (where Isreal was going) and the Egyptians (where they came out of) The topic of the chapter is clearly idolotry as in verses 2, 4, 5, and 6 God has to remind them that He is their God and that they need to be doing what He says. Again in chapter 20 (where the other verse is) the topic is idolotry and the referrence is a ritual used in idol worship. He tells them not to go whoring after Molech (King idol).

Really this is not rocket science...But there is much more that I have taken 40 pages in my book to clearly lay out the history and the time lines and I refuse to take up all of the space here to explain it all to you. If you don't want to read what I have already researched, if for nothing more than a different understanding then don't...I really dont care. But please stop assuming that I have no formal education in Biblical Research. Just because I dont parade my credentials under everyone's nose does not mean that I do not have them.

if someone has done a great deal of research on the topic,

they should be able to briefly and succinctly state the reasons why they believe the way they do...

Simply put, I have found no where in the Bible that actually addresses homosexuality as a lifestyle or an orientation. The 10 verses used to prove the sin nature of homosexuality with the exception of one do not even touch on the subject. All I did was some honest research and then I wrote it all down to share with others. It takes up a lot of space. So no I will not reproduce it here and if some think that is a cop out...well that is your opinion. So is that simple enough?

And just for the record I would love for you to tell any one of my professors that they need to "briefly and succinctly" state their views on any given topic that they have spent years researching.

Thanks Rocky, I dont know about warm fuzzies but it did bring back some fond memories of good friends.