caribousam

That's not really what caribousam said. I think that the point cs was trying to make is that you can't really love with agape without having been born again, and having received holy spirit. Agape seems to go beyond loving your neighbor as you would wish yourself to be loved into loving someone when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself.

Hi Jeaniam,

Yes, you kind of capture what I was trying to say. The main point being - without holy spirit, there is

truly a missing piece, and wholeness of thought, being, action, and motives is not possible without

that missing piece. And "full" agape love is not possible without the h.s.

Non Christians do good things, sometimes really good things, but in a way all is for naught

without the holy spirit within. Sounds harsh, but I think it's biblical. Part of me would like to

say that this isn't so, but the scriptures seem to say that this is the way things are.

-CS

"the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation"

That was another of VPW taking something and twisting it to fit so he could use it to furthuer his agenda.

If you instead say "the Love of God in manifestation" you have agape. That "renewed mind" inserted in there was the millstone around our necks. Everytime we failed to "bless" leadership we were told to renew our minds. Every wrong we did was due to lack of a renewed mind. This was at the rank and file level-- I cannot begin to comprehend what it was like at the corps level.

Loving your neighbor as yourself -- means extending agape love

It means, when your neighbors are having a party and the reverberating music is making the migraine you already had feel like Gimli son of Gloin and his entire family are mining for mithril just behind your left eye, before heading out the door you take a moment to think how you would want to be approached regarding the problem if the shoe was on the other foot INSTEAD of just going over, in your pain wracked state, yelling at them to "Turn it DOwn!!"

Interesting point about the renewed mind. But I can see how the complete definition of agape

could include the renewed mind part. I just don't know if the agape definition was put

together by VPW in a way to enhance some twisted agenda...I hate to think (and don't believe it....

maybe i am just too naive) that I once fellowshipped with people who were

such snaking connivers

The love of God in manifestation in the renewed mind to me sort of connotes

that there is a difference between loving God from a renewed mind as opposed to from a mind

that is not being renewed. It could then be said that someone who is not a believer cannot

have - in a Biblical sense - a mind that is being renewed, and therefore cannot really love

God in an agape fashion. It could be then also said that - in the spirit of "if you don't know me then

you don't know the Father" - that someone without holy spirit, unsaved, cannot truly love

in the agape way.

Still, that "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" is a mouthful, and sounds kind

of cold and clinical.

Loving your neighbor and God as yourself sounds more do-able.

Have a great weekend! Peace and love from CS !

Hello old friends.

I have been away from GreaseSpot for awhile, seeking my fortune and dreaming new dreams. (You knew me before as Xena and before that as Schwaigers). I needed to come back to get your input on some thoughts I've had about the concept of "Agape", the messed-up lessons we learned from TWI, and how this relatively small piece of misinformation has impacted all of us.

Nice to be home.

Xena was an angry warrior woman, and with that identity, I could express my recent divorced self. Not really me. Schwaigers was the married name, under which I would post things without assistance from my other half, even though I made it look like it came from both of us. Also a facade. Shifra is me, the midwife, the mom. You guys know me.

Enough preface and re-intro. Here's my latest curiosity:

TWI taught us that Agape was "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household". Yuk. The rest of the world said it meant "unconditional love". Either way, I am now wondering if Agape is or has ever been HUMANLY possible. I propose that it is a form of love which only God can actually ... do. Sorta comparable to Creation.

Could it be that for us to even attempt such love is arrogant and presumptuous?

Could it be that making such attempts puts us into the role of a martyr, tolerating and accepting fellow Christians (and others) to the point of damaging or endangering ourselves?

To me it seems that this level of love far exceeds the love of self, and as Jesus taught we are to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Agape implies self-sacrifice - and beyond.

And what about TWI itself? Certainly they did not practice Agape. Any hint of love that they may have offered was totally conditional.

But if we are indeed NOT practicing Agape, then are we as Paul writes, nothing more than a "sounding brass or a tinkling cimbal"? Hmmmmmm. Well, brass and cimbals aint so bad. Add a couple of guitars and ya got yourself a good rock band. Talk to me.

Shifra

Paul explains in Corinthians what agape is. But as is often the case, words just don't convey

the real sense of what it really is.

As a Christian, I have thought about it a lot myself. Unconditional love is not all that hard to

do. Or is it ? What's more difficult is trying to figure out what the motives are. Sometimes I will think

about motives too much, which can get me sidetracked and into a place where I do nothing.

At times I have "felt" agape in me - that sounds weird - but I have had at times this really excellent

inspirational type agape love to do something, or pray for someone, or worship God in a way

that comes from deep in the heart someplace. Getting connected to God in this way is very cool.

"Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" somehow sounds so cold and clinical. too many

words, not enough life.

-CS

You know you're in a cult when........

You eagerly join their leadership training program, thinking it's to learn to be God's best by training with God's best, only to find yourself working menial jobs, falling asleep in mind-numbing classes, and eating food you wouldn't fed your dogs.

You actually look forward to piling on every piece of clothing you have to stand on the freeway in the freezing cold with your thumb out to hitchhike to another location that you must be to in a certain amount of time or face the wrath of leadership.

You find yourself abducted on the way to one of these blessed locations and having unspeakable things done to you, only to refuse to file a police report because you have to get to where you are going or face the wrath of leadership.

You return from this experience, only to be told by leadership that you have failed due to lack of believing, and they will decide whether or not to kick you out. You then spend the next year and a half on pins and needles, never receiving counseling for the experience but instead feeling like God's worst among God's best.

You finally near the end of this training experience, only to be told two months before graduation that you are truly worthless and have no business being there, causing you to run away in shame and leaving all your belongings and "friends" behind.

You then spend the next twenty years surviving and attempting to build a life (albeit one outside the protection of the household) all the while knowing you're a worthless piece of crap as a human being-they said so, so it must be true). You make no close friends and build no lasting relationships-after all, who would want to be involved with damaged goods and a worthless piece of crap?

You then discover Greasespot Cafe, and discover it was all a lie-and now you don't know anymore who you are.

Yes-the joys of being in a cult.

hey topoftheworld,

Ouch, ouch, ouch...I feel your pain.... :(

If that is you that you are speaking of - as I am assuming - I have sent a prayer on your behalf...

-CS

AND - you've tried all the spin-off cults from it!

Ouch, that hurts ! Tou-che !

CS

You know that you are in TWI if your Way Corps twig leader tells you that you shouldn't marry

the sweet woman that you have so much in common with....

....and 20 years later, you are still happily married to her, and many of the Way Corps "perfect

marriages" have long since died.

10...Upon getting a flat tire on the way to work and having no spare tire, you realize that you have an "opprotunity"

9...You stopped going to bars because you were tired of seeing all the devil spirits

8...All your friends are constantly saying "bless you" and you don't even like them

7...You stop at two beers because some guy in a brown suit told you to.

6...You are memorizing verses of scripture while doing laundry

5...You find that other people are planning your time for you

4...You enthusiastically applaud and cheer for the "live music" performances that you hear, when in reality, the music REALLY sucks.

3...You feel privileged to be one of the few that actually knows the "truth"

2...The person you look to for spiritual guidance is a mean old dyke

...and number 1...You know you are in TWI if you are afraid to "open your mind" to the GreaseSpot Cafe...

C'mon boys and girls, add some of your own...

...

I'm sure I'll get some flak for this, but here goes...

You know you WERE in TWI too long when you notice that you cannot stop griping, complaining,

and whining about all the bad things that were done to you...even though you left the group

10 years ago...

The last AC I attended, was a video tape session in 1981, of the 1979 Live Class,

(Which I was at -- (Still hearing Beautiful Ohio in my head!) :D

Is there *new revelation* (COUGH!!) *present truth* (these days)??

Hi dmiller,

I went to the Advanced Class in 1986 in Emporia Kansas. I enjoyed the fellowship, the hot dry

weather...the class was ok, I did learn some new things...a lot of my real "Advanced Class" learning

has come in the sometimes mean streets of life before and after that time. But I somehow

alonmg the way learned to keep open to God

and truth and learning, no matter waht, and I think that there has been a continual growth path in the right

direction. Praise God ! I'm thankful that God and Jesus ahve never abandoned me. At times

in my Christian walk, I have done some really really dumb things, but my salvation and

fellowship remain.

Cheers !

CS

Seems like every time I've been to fellowship, my greatest worry has been being called on to pray.

Praying for the ABS, the BODs, the WC, outreach and the Way Ds, any needs. Then there's manifestations.

In twi, it seemed like the manifestations were priority over praying with understanding, so when I do think I need to pray I instinctively SIT. Prayer of some in meetings seemed to be more like instructions for the rest of us. Sometimes it seemed like prayer is used to glorify the individual praying. I remember (at least one occurrence specifically at a ROA) that some of the teachings in twi seemingly denounced prayer at times, because your supposed to believe.

I realized recently, that I don't like to pray, or at least it still make me nervous. And when I do its quick and crude. Little kids pray better than I do. Its like I'm afraid of God. (And yes I know I need to get past that)

Seeing now that the Law of Believing is more like taking Faith and tying it into a pretzel, I wonder how much of my problem here is a result of twi and how much is not.

I'm asking if anyone has anything to share concerning their prayer life and twi. Did twi affect your prayer life for better or worse or not at all? Has your prayer life changed or not since twi?

bolshevik,

As far as twi goes, it's been about 20 years or so since I was involved with them...but my prayer

life over time has gotten deeper, richer, more fruitful. Prayer in TWI meetings was hard for

me at times. Partly it was due to fear of saying something stupid. If there were Way Corps

Marines around, it made things worse.

But the heart and sould of my prayer life is just between me and God, and Jesus. I think

that that is the way it is supposed to be. Also praying with my wife is pretty powerful.

There are times when I really really enjoy praying for folks as God brings them to mind. It's sort

of like being in the "zone" while praying. Cool stuff.

In general, I find myself praying about all kinds of things all the time, pretty much like the

Bible talks about, though there are dry periods in my life where I just have a hard time

getting myself to pray.

Speaking in tongues, thankfullness, and praise intertwined around my prayer life seem to

make things happen. Also keeping a pure heart.

Well that's my two cents for now. I'll pray that your prayer life gets richer and deeper

and more meaningful.

Regards,

CS

Odd man out here !!!

To tell you the truth, even though I didn't agree with her sexual preferences, I enjoyed her, I found her to be funny and down to earth, she wasn't afraid to be herself. I like the fact that she wasn't afraid to speak up.

Cowgirl

cowgorl,

Yes she wasn't afraid to be herself and speak up. Too bad her ideas were often wacky

and she frequently lacked decorum. Sometimes she was just plain disgusting.

I'm happy she is off TV. My prayers have been answered.

CS

The one time I met him, during a singles camp for CES Memorial Day of 2000, I thought he was cool too. He really tried to lead people to a personal walk, AND PARTICIPATION.... without his own agenda. I always liked his teaching style too. I'm the type where my mind really wanders if it's a boring teaching, and he always kept my interest.

I hesitate going into this on this board, because I don't want this to turn into a bash thread, but I putting it delicatly, I always thought JAL was a much better writer than teacher. When I bought the original CES tapes, 7years back, Discovering God's Word, JAL did most of the verbal teaching on tape, and man, what can I say...someone needs to lovingly tell that guy his calling aint in verbal teaching. I would skip all his, and dig out Schoenheits, and the others before I could listen to JAL. Not being mean. Or I'm not trying to anyway. It's just I don't think his calling was for verbal teachings.

I always thought if I would take a "Holy Land Tour" I would love it to be with JS

hey rottie,

I agree with that. JAL is an excellent writer, but not so great of a speaker.

I've always enjoyed hearing JS teaching on tape/CD or in person. He is good at it, very knowledgeable, not dull.

CS

The show opened up with Jim Jones saying, "Its Christ in you, the hope of glory." Where did I hear that before?

It was a very good show. I learned so much. I didn't know he had a church in Indianapolis, my hometown, or that he and his wife were the first white couple to adopt a black child in Indiana, or that he was well respected in the political world, at least while he lived in the states.

I saw this documentary a few night ago. At the end, Jim Jones was a really warped monster. It seems like earlier in the history of his church that he was a decent human intent on putting together a true community of believers. It would be great if we were able to see how his path got so caught up in a slippery spiritually deceived slope.

There was some very genuine love and joy in that community in some of the earlier days. It seems that part of the problem was JJ's overly controlling character. Near the end, he had become many cards short of a full deck.

Caribouism, hi. I'd say 18 years better is a healing. That's what we all wanted in twi...get prayed for and whatever it was would go away permanently.

It's my opinion that a lot of people who say they're casting 'em out aren't because they can't or there isn't one in there, but that's just my opinion.

Wb,

There are some amazing details of this experience which I have mainly kept to myself to this day...

Yep I have seen some kooky looking people say that they were casting out or had casdt out bad spirirts. I believe strongly that my experience was genuine.

It's nopt something I generally talk about much...a lot of people would think I'm nuts...on the other hand I have seen and experienced God's power in this realm and feel some sense of responsibility to pass along this understanding to those who are seeking

Caribouism, hi. I'm glad to hear you know one person who has had a demon cast out and was better. How long was this person better? Are they still better?

Oh, and what did you want to help me with? :)

hey wb, how are u today ?

This person has been better for some time...a little shaky for a week or so after the experience, but basically

off the depression track for good after that...I talk to that person on a regular basis, and they seem to be

quite well. No more of the deeply rooted anger or depression for about the past 18 years....looks like the healing

was real and from God. I've heard that when God heals it is permanent (in the area healed), though it seems that

this might not always be the case. In this case it seems to be true. I would say that when God heals he takes

care of the root cause, and in general it will be very difficult for those particular bad roots to take residence

again.

-CS

Caribouism, hi. I'm glad to hear you know one person who has had a demon cast out and was better. How long was this person better? Are they still better?

Oh, and what did you want to help me with? :)

Hi wb,

I guess I made I mistake - for some reason I was thinking that it was you who was suffering depression,

but after scanning your posts in this topic, there is nothing that points that way (directly or indirectly)...

You seem perfectly well! Hallelujah !

Regards,

CS

Actually, that is not true, since one of the three founding members (JAL) is no longer on the board. To my understanding, a founding member can be removed from office via resignation or by a unanimous vote from the rest of the board members. MG could not be voted off b/c one other member sided with him....thus the current situation. I won't get into the "clergy community" issue.

I'm really close to these guys (it's no secret that I am a former home office employee), and I know that each person on the board (including MG) has worked tirelessly and, in differing degrees depending on the person, selflessly to help people. They really don't sit around plotting ways to manipulate and use people for their own personal gain, and none of them (to my knowledge) is getting or has gotten rich off of the donations sent in to the office in Indy.

That being said, I do agree that the lack of accountability to others OUTSIDE of the board "inner circle" (which is very closed some times and not so closed at others) is alarming and highly problematic. However, EVERY church has an "inner circle" - a relatively small, close knit group of people who go about the business of running the church. The "laity" (for lack of a better term) does not need to know every tiny crisis/disagreement within the church. And if every church were a wide-open democracy nothing would ever get done!

The question is in the balance. Since CES/STF is a non-profit, I hope to see more of an adherence to established guidelines for internal and external oversight. More transperancy, so to speak. I know that some of the lax approach to such guidelines resulted from a consious effort to keep things more like a "family" and less like a "business." However well intentioned, I think this was a bit naive. Families are messy - the guidelines and structure are there to HELP and PROTECT people - including leadership.

Just some thoughts....

Some thoughts from an insider/outsider:

Those are interesting insights. It seems that CES - wittingly or unwittingy - developed a sort of clique-y way of being. There were the

inner circle leaders in Indiana, and then another wider circle of Indiana folks around that, and then everybody else. It seems that the inner

circle was trying to keep things very close to the vest, maybe out of a concern that too much outside influence might bring impure stuff

into the ministry.

But it seems that the overly controlling ways of the inner circle left many folks who were not part of that clique feeling very out of

the loop. There was a lack of opportunity for many (like myself) who were excited to do all kinds of things to promote God and

Christ in everyday life and culture....but creative ideas were shot down pretty quickly.

So the inner circle lacked accountability, but they wanted strong accountability from those outside the circle. I can see

how that would cause problems.

My understanding was that John Lynn resigned from the board several years ago.

That is a good question. Part of the problem with CES has been lack of transparency about

things. I'd had a sort of arms length relationship with CES for several years, but it was always

hard to tell what was going on among the leaders in Indiana. In John Lynn's case, he was off

the board, the he seemed to be still really involved at one time...etc. Secrecy about these kinds

of things doesn't seem to work well for anyone.

Thanks, Pipes!

Back to depression...so far no takers to my question if anyone KNOWS of someone who had a devil spirit or demon cast out and is now better and no longer has depression.

Kinda what I thought and I'm really an optimist. Why else would I have believed that junk for so many years?

Yes, I do believe Jesus cast 'em out. Yes, I do believe his followers cast 'em out. Yes, I do believe followers today can cast 'em out. But, no I know anyone who has had 'em cast out and is now better.

So, logically speaking, seems to me the thing to do is to seek medical help so people can GET BETTER...instead of sitting around for 5 more years wondering why they feel depressed all of the time even though they supposedly had some cast out or changed their diet or whatever.

Denial isn't a river in Egypt.....

Hi waterbuffalo,

I have been involved in various teams that have been able to cast out spirits.

And yes I know of someone who had a devil spirit cast out of them and no longer has depression. The depression

in this particular case I would say was caused by a spirit of anger that had a deep hold on this person. And I don't

think that the deep deep depression that that person experienced has returned.

But medicine seems to be the best way to go in some cases, though it is always good if the root of the

problem can be dug up and dealt with. A very difficult task sometimes.

I'd be glad to help you if possible...shoot me an email at serious41us@yahoo.com

Warm regards,

CS

To much technical and not any heart or love in this thread..

hey ca_dreaming, yeah that seems to happen a lot here at GS --> too technical, and bad hearts...a bad combo

that causes the downfall of people and organizations...it's a drag....

The momentus thing got me going about qualifications, or the lack thereof.

Why is this true for these kind of organizations? CES included..

Those in authority often don't have qualifications, credentials. Or few, or the wrong ones, to run an organization, to counsel PEOPLE.

It seems a lot of people followed up on v.p.'s example of throwing caution to the wind to acquire a skunk-pelt from a degree mill, so to speak. Some didn't even bother going that far.

I can understand how some people feel- why stifle people.. why denigrate their abilities because they lack the proper sheepskin, or proper credentials.. and I partly agree. BUT. In the "real world" it is the EXCEPTION that someone lacks the proper educational requirements, degrees and certificates. Not the RULE.

ESPECIALLY when it comes to helping people, as some kind of psychological "trainer" or such.

Maybe they think it's too late to go back to school, learn it right..

maybe they've graduated from High School, and don't have a place to go. There's, on one hand, several more years of hard work.. on the other, EASY MONEY.

All of those "fluff" classes in college as they call them, are there for a reason.. if you graduate from a reputable school today, you know a little about ethics, history, and perhaps philosophy. No matter what your degree is in.

They are less likely to follow a bunch of lemmings down a deep hole.

The history prof at my school said something to the class like "awwww, you don't see why you should learn history, boo hoo hoo. Maybe you oughta go to a certification place, someplace like Devries. They won't make you learn history.."

He wasn't QUITE that mean.. heheh.

Sometimes those that are qualified on paper are not the right people for the job. Sometimes the right people for

the job lack paper qualifications. Either way, I would prefer the qualified person to be in the job, with paper

qualifications or not. Life experience is a vast proving ground that makes us experienced in many areas.

People that are inspired and able and are in a job that they love would seem to have the best foundation

for being really qualified. Formal training and certification is nice, but obviously doesn't tell the whole story.

Yep, rascal. In all the years I knew vp, I never once heard a sincere apology come from his lips.

But I did hear a lot of reasonings about why I/we believers, were missing the mark. He had a real problem with humility

and could not humble himself if his life depended on it. So instead, he forced others to humble themselves before him.

I think from his earliest years he had an insatiable need to be seen as important in the eyes of others, no matter what the cost was.

And I think that opened the door for all the other evils to grow inside him unabated. I saw a definite, but gradual, change through

the 13 years I knew him.

I never knew VPW personally, and never heard him publically admit to any specific sin or wrongdoing. I did hear VPW call himself someone "who is sometimes a miserable sinner." But it would be nice, refreshing, and helpful if Christian leaders in general would admit their sins and weaknesses. To admit a general sinfulness is good, to admit specifics may be called for at times, though I don't need to know all the gory sinful details of any believer's life...at times messy details do need to come out in the open for the good of all. Also, sometimes in today's climate of instant news and gossip information sometimes has a tendency to be misused and exagerrated.

I don't know if someone has started a thread on good books to read, but I want to start off the new year with some good reading material.

Here are some self help books that I am in the middle of reading right now. I'm trying to slow down the aging process a little. (Don't want to be an old fart, just want to be young at heart).

Body for Life-by Bill Phillips

(tells you how we need to work with weights to strengthen muscle as we get older, our bones need the help.)

Fat or Fat-by Covert Bailey

(exercise-building muscle burns the fat)

You the Owners Manual-by Michael Rozen and Mehmet Oz-

(I've not read much yet but he's been on Oprah-haaaa. This guy Dr. Oz amazes me. He's a world renowned heart surgeon. He tells you from a medical standpoint how your body functions and how you can take care of it).

If you like history, you might try this one. I have read through about 50 of the 800 pages, and it is an informative read from a center-right point of view:

"A Patriot's History of the United States: From Columbus's Great Discovery to the War on Terror " by Larry Schweikart.

I would have to say that regardless of all that has/can and will be said about the "CES Crisis" in the final analysis what has been lost because of these issues is trust...trust in God, and his admonition that we treat the household of faith especially good and his desire for the functioning of the one body, trust in men and women who hold themselves out as walking and speaking for God, trust in our ability to find a place where we can take comfort in fellowshipping with one another with the belief that no matter what we have the Word and each other to turn to for guidance and resolution in any situation.

People sowed their hearts and lives in CES as they did in The Way International and in the end all the discord and division resulted in deep hurt and sadness in the hearts of God's people. Sheep were slaughtered by the hands of those they trusted as their shepards. Men and women who should have known better chose to ignore what they knew to be true, they turned from the knowledge of God and scorned his instruction. The sadness lies in the fact that like any earthly brother or sister we lose relationship with there is a deep sense of mourning and sadness and loss so too these men and women were and remain to be our brothers in Christ though we may never enjoy the fruits of that realtionship in our lifetimes.

Consider that be they who they were and or are, we will spend eternity with VPW and LCM and MG and whom ever else we choose to look at disparingly at. Consider also that God loves these individuals as he does all his children deeply.

In the end there are no winners because we are a body and when ANY member of that body is hurt or functions inappropriately ALL members of the body suffer.

The only winner here is the great deciever as he sits back and grins as the brethren, NOT HIM, slay each other.

Yes I think your viewpoint is a good one. Too many hurt people unfortunately just become hurters themselves.

As a Christian it's good to have a deep sense of understanding and compassion for our Christian brothers

and sisters.

Hay Sam

Saw a movie a couple of weeks ago and they had a saying, lets see if i can remember it right.

We get to choose the choices we make or the choices others make will choose us.

Have a great day

R

Hey rich,

Yep good saying...Yesterday's storm here was brutal...shoveling 6 inches of heavy slushy snow and

ice was backbreaking....a great workout which I'm still recovering from !!! Spring is around the corner

CS

there were teachings about why it was ok to destroy a persons credibility when it came to protecting a man of God`s reputation.

It will sicken you to read what these men did, these men we trusted to be honorable and as pure in heart as we were.

I do not believe that we can trust men such as these, or their take on the scriptures. Sure God worked, in spite of the evil, just like he does in mormon, catholic, baptist, methodist, whatever lable you pin on yourself.

It would seem that he works within whatever parameters we allow. I believe that he worked in our lives in SPITE of what happened in twi.

Looking at this one section relates to ces in my mind.

I have read a resent letter written by some one who was extremly detailed about the experience they had with ces leadership and spouses. They were responded to in a very how dare you way and basicly accused of writting mostly false accounts. When i read the letter I could relate, (not to the personal individual incidents. I wasn't there when they happened)

but the attitude of these leaders and the experience that this person had with them was a match for what i have personally seen and even said to them. I have even been told directly by other people who had the same experience way before this person ever got envoled or thought about trying to open thier eyes.. But the rsponse was to dis this person as not being credable. counting them as not counting. Then being told they are hurt by what was written. Lets condem this person and maybe they will go away.

They don't seem able to see the truth no matter how many times it is spelled out and set before them. This tells me that they therfore can't speak the truth either.

Your statement about destroying persons credibility lives on in all of them.

I don't get them owning up to anything. I do get them trying to be a goat blending in with the sheep.

I read the truth of what I saw in that letter and then the. your not good enough crap and your a sinner as a response .

Makes me very angry that another is pushed aside to protect thier lies.

To you at ces. Please read all the letters that those who have left have written you, again. Maybe you missed something. I hope you weren't so arogant that you threw then out.

To you who haven't spoken up or written, if you think you're too small to make a differance, try slepping in a room with an active mosquito.

Lets start a thread called letters to ces. i'd do it but i'm not sure how to do it. I WILL POST MY STORY WITH THE BOYS ON IT. it will take a while to write, please don't wait for me.

Liv'en in His grace

R

Hey rich, how are things going?

The outlook doesn't look bright for CES. Maybe things can be fixed. Maybe not. If leadership would've just been more

open and honest about things, things may have been worked through in a much better way.

-CS

Sadly, that was a very good post, rascal. Accurate, but more than that, wisely written with the love of God in your heart very obvious in the writing.

CaribouSam, et al.....Since the guys in CES still need lots of help seeing all of their own mess (and that's what this thread can help them do), let's not derail this thread with TWI messes.

That said.....how the CES mess compares to TWI's mess IS pertinent....and in fact could be a new thread idea in this forum.

yep, I think there are probably some common threads that worked evil in both groups. It would be good

to understand what they are.