caribousam

God is concerned with what we are doing every single second of the day and night (and any time in between we may not be aware of yet!)

In fact He says we will be accountable for it on a very personal level.

EP you mind ST and its board of directors business more than your won because it takes the focus OFF you and your relationship with the Lord in your life. It in fact puts them in the position of being a lord in your life.

this is the ONLY part I do feel sorry for them.. people like you want and need and desire them to be so much more than they can ever be.

they are men, just like you, remember the Apostle Paul saying that? what does that mean? even a apostle of the LORD said Im so screwed up I would rather die than not know Jesus.

so worship these guys all you need to to focus on their flesh and what they want , but take heed to remember the man who wrote the holy scriptures said he would be better off DEAD than without Jesus.

As long as you compare you own life to men you can find error and problems with them and stroke you own self into thinking YOUR not so bad after all.

the standard is Jesus the Christ of all mankind not stf or its board or even the work they have done!

be concerned with HIS Board of directors and it may very well be a face your not familiar with or one you cant "talk" about with any knowledge of "how they are or what they have done". Look for Christ and HIs Glory today , do not wait for the judgement day when he can tell people you NEVER EVEN KNEW me . it is the religous folks He will say that to not the unbelievers.

they are men. stop making them try to be more for you, they know they are nothing more than screw ups like the rest of us, please stop putting them in a position to explain to YOU their life, you didnt save their life, and you do not grant forgivness and YOU will not be the one they will be accoutable when all is said and done.

it is folks with your attitude that feed the beast, for the insanity of religous crap.

WHY do you NEED stf so much?

where is Jesus christ in your life.

did you box HIM up in that little white building at the "home office"?

I think NOT.

Hey pond,

I think I understand some of the points that you are trying to make. I just really really don't like

trashing Christians because of their faults. And, by the way, I'm not saying that you are trashing

anyone...

CES leaders - principally Graeser, Lynn, Shoenheit - it seems to me have not been able to really

help people enough in developing their OWN lives and relationships with Jesus. "Sheep" often fall into lazy patterns of blindly

following shepherds, and not using their God given brains and abilities to question, learn, and grow.

It can become an exercise like watching TV - entertaining but passive, and sometimes pointless.

Lazy sheep can entice careless servant leaders to prop their own selves up and act sort of like

gods. It's kind of an ugly cycle. But God does choose people to lead his people - and the onus falls

on those leaders to do the right things - to focus more on teaching the sheep to fish instead of

just throwing them bones. And to make sure that the sheep aren't falling into lazy patterns of

disbelief and inaction.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm

More from the same:

I haven't heard any rebuttal- I can only assume that this is typical of the momentus "experience", and J.L. and crew did "participate" in these early days the story here describes.

Honestly, I don't need to pay somebody $150.00 to learn how to beat on a pillow and scream..

Hammer,

Yourself and a few others here at GS have the habit of wildly exaggerating and going over the top to cause destruction. Like vultures going in for the kill at any sign of weakness or error.

So here is more fodder for you...Yep I went through the pillow exercise at Vision Quest. It was enlightening. It wasn't a cure all for all my foibles. It was a way of opening my eyes to certain unresolved bitterness.

Momentus and Vision Quest and the like are good for some, not so good for others. I don't think you would be able to handle it well. Doesn't make you better or worse than me or anybody else. This kind of training just isn't right for you.

Thanks for this pro-active approach, CS...

I vote for using God's terminology, not man's, in this thread. My reason is that man's terminology varies so much with each person's understanding. At least when we use God's words we all go to the same source for them and have the same Spirit in us to open our understanding. Plus, man's words seem to have no solution...you 'recover' forever...whereas God's words which descriibe problems also include the solutions: "you once were, but now are"....!

I'll give one example:

Man has lately made up the word dysfunctional.

There is no definition of dysfunctional in the Word and no solution for it.

Ah, but if we use the word CARNAL, God gave us many definite instructions about its cause and solution!

So..can we define "Healthy" in this thread as "godly" or "how God would have it"? or "biblical"?

hi therbutforgrace,

I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense to use God's terminology in some situations. But in this case, I don't want to get stuck in using this or that terminology. My point for this discussion is to encourage brainstorming, new ideas, and free thought. In the end, I trust that God will be working through all of this to open some eyes and brains to some new understanding.

Sometimes being too worried about the right words can get in the way of understanding. Words are words. They are not wisdom or understanding.

Pond beat me to the punch and said more than I couldve or wouldve.

Why do we have to build anything?

First off, Im no bible scholar, and correct me if I am mistaken but the "who' of building the church is a job that is already taken, I doubt anyone here is going to successfully usurp that job title from the rightful owner. I personally wouldnt suggest attempting it

second, there are thousands of flavors of christianity in the body already that would suit any taste,

whats the point of building something that is already built?

Nobody has to put together anything. But it is cool, empowering, and fulfilling to be part of a healthy group.

And we can do this or be part of this if we choose. If we don't want to - fine. Like a lot of things in life,

making it obligatory makes a lot of people walk away...God doesn't oblige us to a lot of these kinds of

peripheral things, bu he does oblige us to "love."

The flavors of Christianity I see where I live do not suit my taste. They all taste like vanilla or vanilla mixed with rotten

bananas. Dull, or dull and corrupt - not inspiring. Voice of the Martys is one group which I really like, but that is a group I am connected to at arms length...

I guess internet groups and arms length connection are nice, but I have an appetite for something more.

I have a committment to organize in some way, so I have no choice.

What I like about my project is that there are many many ways to develop and be

part of healthy groups. I have an idea of how the project will go, but I'm sure that

there will be lots of refining done by the Potter. No, not Harry Potter. Just glad

that I'm a simple lump of clay.

be honest.

even if it wont be out loud .

how many of you die hards believe that if you let this group of people go, just do not associate with stf or ces that God will love you less? or maybe just you wont know Him as well?

that the knowledge will be gone ? that there is no one eles to "really" teach the truth?

Do you (just a little bit even if not out loud?) think any other group or church will be a compromise or a lesser than?

less power? less truth less love, than anywhere eles?

why do you think this is so important? to hang on now through it all?

do you really really LOVE and have an investment in these leaders life and they yours?

REALLY????

ok think think think and be honest WHY?

i know i was in a cult how about you?

Hey pond,

I have been involved with the Way and with CES, and mostly experienced none of what you mention here. Maybe some people did - but generally I don't think that that was the case. The Way was at one time healthy. Up until sometime in the mid to late 80's it seems...after that things did get screwy and cultish...

CES has had problems and time will tell if the ship can be righted. The Way seems like a long lost cause at this point.

The 'cult' label has been put on the Way and CES maybe in large part due to doctrinal differences which differ with much of established Christian groups. One of those beliefs is that Jesus Christ is not God, and that the doctrine of the trinity is a man made doctrine. Thoughtful people - especially non Christians - can see fairly quickly that the doctrine of the trinity is a convoluted and strange doctrine that cannot be well supported by a clear and close look at the scriptures (or by common sense). Yep, I have looked closely at those scriptures.

So, many here in GS Land have been part of some pretty screwed up Christian

groups - churches, ministries, etc.

But, there is a lot of benefit in coming together and organizing in larger groups.

Being a lone wolf Christian is cool for some periods of time for some of us, but there is more

life to be found when we are well connected to larger groups.

So how about doing some brainstorming to help figure how to do

this right ?

One baseline rule I will put in place for this discussion - anarchy is not an option.

The question then - how can we build a Christian organization that is dynamic, organized,

and healthy ?

bite me.

judge not, lest you be judged, right? in MY opinion, it's attitudes like yours that keep us from getting anywhere.

if you can't stand the "over-the-top commentary," get out of the cafe.

Dude, you are kind of vicious...

Judge not lest ye be judged - an interesting piece of Bible that is often misused and misinterpreted.

Glad that you have an opinion sprawled out...we all have them.

Lots of bitter folks here in GS Land. I understand how that might have happened, but...work to get

over all that crap....time to get out of the mud and move onward and upward !!

God bless !

when you say your precious "enablements" with those words of your learning of "how to work God's power that lives in YOU"

you sound Proud and able beyond what those who "obvioulsy have a different view of things".

are you certain you do NOT believe you more enlightened than the "joe Christian" and you not super duper with all power christian? more learned anyways right? hmmm. lucky you right? does God love you more, or is all about what YOU have been able to accomplish once again with a twist in it and a but but but?

sure sounds like a tad arrogant to me.

news flash I do not give personal prophecy to anyone nor do i recieve it from the super learned beyond "joe believer"( less than is REALLY implied in your statement)

and God loves me and enables me plenty.

it fits like a hand in a glove WHY you want this group to carry on they are some of the "more learned" beyond Joe believer who have a different view of things, and important to you because your special . and they provide you with some twisted bible reference so you can continue to feel superiour with them.

now it is even MORE special cause hell yah they got caught in a mistake and you still can give and recieve prophecy and not have the finger turned on YOU .. yet.

you even better than them now!!!

but do keep it in context dear , they are also of the special more learned group. you need to believe it. about them and about you.

for me the LORD Jesus christ accomplished all the learning I will ever need and simply calls himself my friend.

Im happy you feel so successful , and believe for your friends to keep on learning how to prophecy to one another and ya know those pesky "joe believers" will just have to carry on with only the LORD to love and guide them.

sorry i feel i got the better deal.

love

joe believer.

Hey pond, it seems like you missed a lot of what I was trying to say...maybe it's a style thing...

No I'm not trying to be arrogant. I'm just trying to put forth some of what I've learned and seen from God.

I don't think of myself as a super believer. But I do feel an obligation to speak and teach when I have the

chance.

Knowledge can puff people up, but that doesn't mean that God wants us to be without knowledge. Without knowledge it is kind of hard to move to wisdom and understanding.

I'm glad you feel you got the "better deal." I thought that there was one deal - salvation through Jesus Christ.

CS

I’m just curious - what’s the scriptural reference(s) that show personal prophecy provides direction? Do you view personal prophecy as having a big influence on your decision-making process?

There are lots of Biblical references. I can get those to you if you are interested. It will take a little time to put it all together for you, so I want to make sure you are interested in learning before I start on this path. Time is valuable to me.

Personal prophecy has had some influence on some decisions I have made. What is has often done is confirmed something which God was already been trying to let me know about. In other cases, it has helped me sort out some of the root causes of things going on in my life.

This is a logical fallacy. The identity or anonymity of the person has nothing to do with the validity of the message.

Hey Oak, yes you are right, JAL's comments are not logical. I do believe that he has a large need

to CONTROL things...this kind of attitude can bring about bad results in Christianity, and in life

in general. I've seen good and bad things about CES, but one thing that seemed to be especially

hurtful was leaders' need to CONTROL at times when it may have been better to just let things BE.

Just thinking out loud....

CS

No Fooling Hammer,

Karen Ann prophecied once over me,

and the Word prepared me for what was to come.

It was "Right On"

I Cor 14 and IJohn 4:1 are two places in particular

that advise caution when considering prophecy.

I still hold to the notion that God will reveal to you first His will,

and genuine prophecy thus reminds you of what He's been saying all along,

and the prophetic Word resonates with the revealed Word of the holy spirit within.

We are all learning good lessons.

I mainly keep learning I'm not as smart as I used to think.

So I hold on tighter

and try to walk a little closer with my Lord.

Hi EP, hi hammer,

Yes I've had some excellent personal prophecies from KAG and others in CES. Done right, it's powerful stuff

that can build people up and provide direction. That's from my experience, and by the way - also the Bible's point of view.

I've given and received personal prophecy to people in CES and other groups as well, and my experience

has been similar.

Covet spiritual gifts (enablings), especially prophecy. That's what that 'ole Bible says...

Yep, sure, spiritual enablements have the potential to be used wrongly. But there is also great potential profit,

so I for one am willing to take the risk, trust God, and learn how to work God's power that lives in me.

People who view these enablements as a thing of the past or out of reach for Joe Christian

will obviously have a different view of things.

CS

As long as it's not on this forum...

I don't blame them for not talking in this forum. There is too much hateful spew going around, and a lot

of generally over the top commentary.

If people would tone down the gossippy chatter, think before writing, and work toward some real resolution

and peace, and we might get some where. Blessed are the peacemakers, right ?

I think if their qualifications were based solely on what is mostly being reported here,

then I can understand how one would take extreme exception to their leadership.

By "them" I am asuming you are referring to the S&T Board of Directors and their ordained clergy members.

However...

I hold John Schoenheit's integrity in the highest regard

and can not think of a more qualified Christian to man the wheel.

I've been a guest in his home and he in mine.

He measures up to Timothy and Titus as well as anyone I know.

I have had a good deal of time and experience with him with which to base my opinion.

Honest

I believe there is more good being accomplished by this minisrty that has been reported here.

Dr. Juede's report was very susinct in addressing certain problems,

but that does not refute the many genuine blessings that have been accomplished.

And Prophecy is indeed very biblical.

This is not a cult.

This is not a Santa Clause fantasy.

and honestly Pond,

I don't know of any one who actually thinks God would love them less for withdrawing from S&T.

No one I know thinks they are the only source of knowledge of the Truth.

I'm not even on their mailing list,

and haven't been directly involved in S&T for three years.

Yet I still have a very healthy relationship with all my friends still involved.

It's not a matter of being bamboozled,

It's simply a matter of loving what our Almighty God Loves.

and I take Extreme Exception to the abusive language and evil suspicions

directed against good people.

A good friend once taught...

You don't get out of the muck and the mire

by looking at the muck and the mire

while pointing to the light.

you get out of the muck and the mire

by looking at the Light

and pointing to the light.

or as Wayne Dyer says

If you change the way you look at things

the things you look at will change.

Peace

Hi estimated prophet, I agree with pretty much all of what you say. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the USA have this win or lose mentality which causes them to throw out the baby with the bath water. Instead of holding on to the good they've learned, some just throw it all away. In an imperfect world, this is not a great way to go. Wisdom from above is available which helps us to discern, and help us be able to keep the good while acknowleding and staying away form the bad. I've fellowshipped with many Christian groups and have been able to learn something from just about all...

cs

"minister?"

Interesting the fella doesn't mention where he got ordained, or what schools or qualifications.

Person would have to have some REAL qualifications before I let them work on MY head with a pickaxe..

Hey Hammeroni,

You seem like you might have bitterness hanging around yourself. If so, get rid of it - it's an anchor that

you don't want to be lugging around. If it's not the case - cool.

Anyhow, this topic has run its course for me..I am kind of tired listening to folks gripe and

complainsts about Momentus/Vision Quest.

I agree with that…And that's why I can say the same thing about my TWI experience. I am the culmination of all my experiences – both good and bad. And perhaps not all situations or experiences are either good or bad – but maybe it's the way I process them.

Being a Christian the way I view my TWI years is as follows: sometimes God worked things out because of what somebody did [meaning myself and/or other person(s)]– and sometimes He worked things out in spite of what somebody [meaning myself and/or other person(s)] did. And sometimes things just didn't work out …After Geer's Patriarch epistle – I began realizing more and more that the TWI environment [many of their doctrines, practices, mentality, programs] was not very conducive to obeying God Almighty…not very God-friendly…it was more about revering TWI's interpretation of God and the Bible…living up to TWI's standards – not God's.

When somebody says "this program will help you clear out the crap in your life." I ask who determines what is crap? When somebody says "this program is only for those who are mature or ready." I ask who determines when somebody is mature or ready?

My point in all this is to give you the reason for my low opinion of Momentus or any reasonable facsimile. And that's all it is – my opinion…The Way Corps defined for me what was crap in my life…Now I will take responsibility for the decision to go in the Corps. I was such a doggone sap for TWI leadership telling me "you're Corps material, you've got potential, you don't want to let down God or His people – you need to go Corps," I figured I was mature enough and ready for it…Sorry if I came off harsh or hyper-critical – that's a mixture of a lot of cappuccino and mental baggage from the years when I let a cult run my life – so I don't take too well to anything that looks even remotely like how they did things.

Hey Tbone...cool. I'm glad that you seem to have your "head on straight." Looks like God has given you a fair share of wisdom and knowledge. Yep, how we process or react to all that happens in life is in great part up to us. Some things are just instinctual or "no time to think reaction" but there is an awful lot of stuff where we have to take repsonsibility to do what is right....

Vision Quest, (aka Momentus) helped me to get a clearer picture about how some of all that works...

I was in the Way as well but mostly took from it a lot of good things - knowledge, experience, connection to God...but I sensed the writing on the wall in the late 80's - a sense that the group was falling into an abyss - so I headed for greener spiritual pastures...I thank God that I came through pretty much unscathed. It seems to be the same with Vision Quest - I was able to sift some good among all the junk that was going on....

I'm told that I can be awful naive at times... maybe that dumb innocence has served me well...

Good Point.

Regardless of which road we choose,

we have an actively present Savior

who is with us to the end

and is able to subdue all things to his own will.

I don't ever expect to subject myself to a Momentous style training,

but I can't deny the Savior has worked in the process for many who have gone through it.

I've also seen him work his work in the lives of those who don't go through the process.

I just rejoice when I see him working.

Yes, you got it !! Thank you !!

I don't think it's a matter of someone being mature enough or ready for it – just a glutton for punishment. Amazing how people get suckered into taking a seminar - - and PAYING for this abuse - - allowing egotistical blind-guides to run roughshod all over their heads.

Well what I am trying to say is that sometimes there are experiences or training that can help us go through a growth spurt or help us get through some obstacles that are in the way of our growth.

Vision Quest is not perfect but you are going over the top the way you are describing it. There is some truth and good in what you are saying, just as there is some truth and good in what Vision Quest has done.

Hyperbole may be good in a court of law, but not so good in truth seeking.

Regarding Momentus -

I have been diagnosed as bi-polar. I took Momentus in 1994 and had not had a manic episode for 12 years.

After Momentus I ended up psychotic and hospitalized.

CES holds that position that those who had problems after Momentus had a hard time "confronting things about themselves."

I think there's a little more to it than that.

One other thing - I wasn't particularly interested in Momentus but some one I knew who took it was really motivated to get me to take it. Without being pushed by this person, I probably wouldn't have gotten involved.

I don't want to sound like a jerk...but...blaming others for decsions YOU make is going to get you into trouble, especially if you are a Christian.

I pretty much agree with that CES position about those who have problems due to this training. If that is not what it is, what is it ? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I appreciate a deep dive into things like this. It is important to know and understand the roots of all of this if possible...I would like to really understand the good and the bad in these types of training. Don't point me to a web site. Let me hear about YOUR experience...if possible...

There's another way to look at it, many people don't believe that these programs are the right way to deal with issues in their lives - it has nothing to do with their level of 'maturity' - whatever you mean by that.

CS, I'm not saying you are doing this, but it is manipulative to accuse people of not taking a program because they lack maturity and are not willing to take a 'deeper look' into their lives. I've heard this from all the multi-level marketing 'pay-per-use' psycho-babble programs, including the grandpapa of vision quest, EST.

For those unfamiliar with the foundation of Momentus, Vision Quest, Life Spring, etc etc - read about it here. It's pretty twisted and the current versions sound ~very similar~. And if you do support Momentus and did have a 'positive experience' with it, I think (IMHO) you have a responsibility to be familiar with it's roots and concepts if you're going to recommend it to others while your are representing Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

Here are some testimonials on Life Spring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifespring

Breakthrough.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm

If you think it has changed since then, read about or ask someone about Momentus / Vision Quest.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rec_momensumary.htm

And now T0cchini's Breakthr0ugh Training is offered through ACCD, the Associati0n for Christian Character Devel0pment.

http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/200

"The Training Series consists of the Discovery Seminar, Breakthrough Training, and The Clearing. We also offer the One Accord Workshop for married couples. Each of these unique experiential events are designed to produce maximum transformational growth in a short period of time. In addition, we have a one day workshop, Imagine.The Clearing is available to Breakthrough Grads. We also have a two day workshop for men, My Father's Eyes."

I know I'm boring, but Biblical growth always seems to look like, 'a tree planted by the river of living water.' No one likes to watch a tree grow, or paint dry, it's very boring, and also not 'maximum transformational growth' but it is in the bible, like God having people sit in a desert for 40 years, or Jesus preparing for 30 years to minister for 3.

Here is a 2007 initiative from ACCD off their website.

"Public Relations Initiative - Walk out Matthew 18 initiative for every online ACCD detractor. Prepare to litigate against those who print defamatory content about ACCD online, and are unwilling to walk out Matthew 18 regarding this offense, and proceed accordingly, as needed."

Litigation is completely against 1 Cor 6:1-8, as has come up in the CES/STFI MG discussions. Kind of disconcerting that people want to jump to litigation for online detractors, gosh, like um, hmmm... like this site has been for other groups. This is not like litigation because someone took stole your money or swiped a deed from a widow, this is people threatening to sue other Christians who were involved in the program and airing their concerns to other Christians. These are the people that DEVELOPED the program.

If and when people are ready to confront the 'crap' that lives in them churches should take a Biblical approach starting with calling on Jesus. People call Momentus a 'training course' - what does it train you in? What does it train you to do? If it is an approach to pursue Godliness is it found in the Bible? Does it replace the Bible and a relationship with Jesus? Are you instructed to do the Biblical things first, and then do this, or do them both, or primarily focus on the 'training?'

Can you picture Jesus as a Momentus trainer or attendee yelling at you and telling you to punch a pillow and yell at your parents? Honestly I cannot.

There are plenty of worldly programs that offer 'results' that have nothing to do with the Bible, and programs that claim to change believers and unbelievers alike are certainly not doing it by the transforming of their minds (biblically) or the power of the holy spirit.

Churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus.

I am not actively promoting these particular trainings. I am only saying that I had an overall positive and frutiful

experience at Vision Quest. And that this type of training is not for everyone. Sometimes we need to get out of comfortable and/or set ways of being and doing if want want to grow. Sometimes growing will be painful. As a Christian, I seek out better ways to give, to grow, and to learn. Prayerful thought, study, and prayer often takes me to places that I know are right but might sometimes seem unusual or strange to others. I've long ago learend to confidently take to the roads that seem right, often despite the criticism of family and friends...and it has made all the difference!!

The Road Not Taken - by Robert Frost

TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,

And sorry I could not travel both

And be one traveler, long I stood

And looked down one as far as I could

To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5

Then took the other, as just as fair,

And having perhaps the better claim,

Because it was grassy and wanted wear;

Though as for that the passing there

Had worn them really about the same, 10

And both that morning equally lay

In leaves no step had trodden black.

Oh, I kept the first for another day!

Yet knowing how way leads on to way,

I doubted if I should ever come back. 15

I shall be telling this with a sigh

Somewhere ages and ages hence:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Well Jesus did do some radical things, so it's a not so hard for me to see him using some unorthodox methods. Sending pigs into the sea, raising his voice to raise the dead and quiet a storm, and confronting the religious establishment of the time make him pretty radical.

Yes churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus. Unfortunately this is often not the case. What a lot of churches seem to be into is growing in size, collecting money, and throwing out some Biblical crumbs so that people keep coming back. The reality is - professing, devout, serious Bible believing Christians are some of the most messed up people around. At least that is true here in Massachusetts.

My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.

The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really?

I understand what you are saying. But there is a lot of potential good in these kinds of courses. Situations, circumstances and events in life can leave us burnt out, confused, stuck..and kind of hypnotized to a general way of being that may be stagnated or just plain ugly. Courses like Momentus or Vision Quest ( a variation of Momentus) can be helpful in getting us out of the ruts and into some better understandings and perceptions about ourselves and our lives in general.

I don't see anything wrong with a group like CES promoting Momentus. But tHe thing about these kinds of intense training courses is - people must be mature enough and ready for something like this. Talking a deeper look into the reality of ourselves and the world around us can be too much to stomach for a lot of people.

-CS

Can you please elaborate on what you mean in the above quote, bold section?

Yep, it's pretty simple. Some are not ready or willing to confront the crap that lives in them.

Got it ?

Maybe its just my perception of Dr. Phil. I've always thought of him as kind of wimpy. A pop psychologist with more interest in internet dating than probling the depths of the human soul.

-JJ

I saw Dr Phil on some Christian program - I think James Robeson and his wife. Dr. Phil and his wife both professed some serious Christian beliefs, which was nice to hear. But from what I saw and heard, it was hard to tell how much of what Phil and wife were saying was for "sales effect" and what was from the heart.

-cs

Dr. Phil had parts of it on tv several years back. He is one hard condensending trainer. Maybe try heisweb page and see if it comes up.

One thing I forgot is the techneics used in the training are many times used after on the people. It is used to control people. Your life becomes one big training. Can you spell fun! This does more damage to people. people need to process and that takes time. Sometimes years.

I got a lot out of the training. A real lot. Some didn't get much of anything in my class. One possible problem I brought up about the training is that the same methods and exercises were being used over and over, which I thought was maybe starting to make the bread stale.

-cs

a testimony from momentus site

maybe the STFI board should take this class

I completed a seminar that was very similar to Momentus - Vision Quest - and I had an enlightening experience. It was also exhausting, and very difficult at times in places where I had to face some of the less noble or weaker parts of myself. But in the end, I learned a whole lot about myself and how to connect with God, and discoverd or rediscoverd some of the more important points about being a Christian man. It was for me a productive, positive, character building time...

That said, I would say that this type of training is not for everyone...those that are not ready might not have such fruitful experiences.

Maybe they don't promote it anymore...but that's only because of the negative feedback and bad publicity it generated. On a personal level, both JAL and Shoenheit told me personally that they thought it was a great training program...and this was AFTER they stopped promoting it publicly.

I think that pointing out CES's involvement with momentus is a good example of their "blown about with every wind of doctrine" approach that they take to seeking spiritual "truth".

I suppose that graduating from momentus to dream prophesies was an improvement?

The blind leading the blind...

No I don't think that CES's involvement with Momentus was an example of being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I think it was an example of them realizing that CES/STFI doesn't hold all the answers - doctrinally or practically - so it is a wise thing to collaborate with others of good reputation.

CES/STFI has made a lot of mistakes, but I don't see their involvement with Momentus as a mistake. IMHO.

Caribo-

That was a really nice honest post. Sometimes there is a chemistry and we just have to NOT act on it.

hi dot matrix, yep that's kind of the bottom line with a lot of (sinful) tempations in life - there are lots of things that attract us due to some need that we have, but taking the bait leaves us hooked into something that just ain't healthy....

love you !

caribousam

Swingers

I do not mean cheating. I do not mean an open marriage where you date. I mean where you swap partners or go to a “hang out” and share one another.

I think if you are going to do that then why be married? And I don’t think you can do that and be a practicing Christian. Is it cheating? If both people agree should it be accepted?

Here:

http://www.swinglifestyle.com/

Of course the "shagedelic swinging sixties" followed and once again the term "swinger" took on a new, cartoon-type of character. Towards the end of the 60's, swinger clubs started to form. Publications were printed and different forms of alternative relationships like swinging, polyamory and communal living started to show up.

It wasn't long before the 70's and rumors of "key parties" and "wife swappers" became the common explanation of the "new swingers." Again, sexist overtones dominated the "swinger" scene, the very term "wife swapper" implies that the man owns his wife and can trade her at will for another partner.

The 80's saw a surge of new clubs forming until the AIDS scare forced many swingers underground and many clubs closed or dropped in membership. Eventually, swinging became a lot more open, clubs rebounded and national conventions like Lifestyles in California and Las Vegas gained in popularity and thousands of couples came to meet other open minded couples. "Recreational swinging" became a powerful economic factor, in fact it became an industry. Today, you can find articles on "swinging" in Time magazine, the New York Times, Details, on HBO, MTV, Showtime, VH1 and most national and local newscasts, newspapers and magazines

I'm a man who has been married for 19 years - happily I would say - but there have been times where I thought it would be nice to have close female friends - totally platonic friends - in the idea of - "they are my Christian sisters." The thought and intent I had is I believe well intentioned in the Christian sense. The practicality of doing this is another thing. There is only a certain level of friendship I have been able to achieve with women without getting into what looks like a danger zone. Once or twice I've gotten in some pretty bad pickles when my platonic friendship withj a female started morphing into something else. Thank God that I had some perception about what was going on and the long term implications of my actions. Fortunately I have been able to cut off realtionships which were getting to friendly and keep my marriage alive and healthy. Practically I find it very difficult to impossible to have close friendships with females. Couples befriending couples seems to work out much better. Maybe when I am an old man it will be easier....

hi therebutforgrace,

Hi therebutforgrace,

Yes it is cold here in Caribou. But I (strangely?) like the cold and snow.

My two cents added below.

You are right, 1b1.

Mark is just as 'strong' as KA.

JAL's 'inordinate allegiance to the Graesers' has (although people have told him over and over for years) blinded him to their 'other side'...until now.

>I always thought that Mark and John Lynn's friendship went too far in covering each others butt.

So, getting the Gs' influence out of the CES office is a start.

> The G's have a beautiful family. Maybe it's time to concentrate on family matters and then maybe reach out in the future.

But.....getting the leaven (that which influenced the Gs) out of the CES leadership's hearts and minds (since they ALL went along with them for years) is the only way any of them (including the Gs and Rs) should ever be considered "leadership" again.

> God bless Mark and Karen Anne. I've had some excellent prayer sessions with them. They have helped me out in gaining some spiritual insight in certain areas of life. The folks who are "leaders" in STFI should split up, refresh themselves, get connected to God again, get to know the freedom in Christ, and then move forward.

God wants, of course, to forgive and cleanse each of them as much as He wants to forgive and cleanse you or me the next time we sin.

The purpose of exposure of the sin of leadership is 3-fold: stop God's people from being hurt, allow believers to make a fully-informed choice of whom to support, and, hopefully, help wake up leadership too.