caribousam

Really?

I remember the Tylenol incident a "few" years ago. From what I remember, at least ONE "otherwise perfectly healthy" person, who merely had a headache DIED.

So, what did the manufacturer do..

"well, it was only one death, a few got sick. Let's just have business as usual, and insist that the customers sign a hold harmless agreement before we sell them the product."

No- they pulled Tylenol off the shelf like it was cyanide.. went to great lengths to recall the product, at great expense.

Yeah- a "money grubbing drug company" as some people would call them.

And they have more "CHRISTIAN" morals than a group that espouses christian beliefs.

Or merely shrouds itself in them, in name only.

"what's a murder, a few suicides, people going in the loony bin. Can't put it in the dumpster, look at all the good it did.."

This is SUPPOSED to be a "self-help" seminar.. people just want a little more focus, maybe- maybe a few more communication skills.

Maybe they want a little more confidence in themselves.

"well, let's just break them down.. REALLY show them how they need a savior.."

I thought that was the devil's job.

hammeroni,

I had said that I wouldn't be back in this discussion, but I am back.

The tylenol analogy is not a good one. In the case of tylenol, the product was directly shown to be

the result of someone's death.

I don't think you can prove that there were any murders or suicides as a result of the training. Your wild

speculations make for titillating reading, but don't do much good at getting at the heart of the matter.

regards,

CS

There is an awfull lot of information that needs to be examined point by point. I am trying to cover way to much ground in a single sitting here. At first glance it all seems outragious and impossible. Each of the things that I mentioned above however, can and have been verified by numerous first person accounts.

It would probably be good if you took it issue by issue, I will try to help wherever I can.

I think that it is relevent to this thread, because it explains how ces could have gotten in such a mess in the first place. The foundation that it was built upon is shakey and needs to be examined carefully for cracks and flaws.

If on examination, you find it to be solid, you then can have confidence in repairing the structural flaws of what has been built upon that foundation.

Hi rascal,

I've heard many very sad, disgusting, and cruel stories about TWI. From yourself and many others

in face to face conversations and other dialogue.

Many CES founders and board members were certainly influenced in some way by all of this. One

would think that they might try extra hard to avoid TWI type debacles. But it does make one consider

that CES leaders who were leaders in TWI should be thoroughly "examined."

Not to say that we condemn them, but due diligence seems very important in

examining the credentials of Christians in positions of organizational leadership.

CS

[bravo. I'm overjoyed for you.

I never said NOBODY benefitted from this program-or at least THINKS they did.

My comment was a PARAPHRASE- that people have been saying that this program

is ABOVE REPROACH, and that any complaints are entirely due to the participants

and not the program. THAT's where your posts-and others-have gone.

To claim NOW that you're saying that some normal people even CAN be harmed

by this program would represent a CHANGE in your posts-and I don't even see you

saying that NOW.

Are you aware that some perfectly-healthy people have been strongarmed into taking

this program, and have been harmed by it?

Or is your position that those who have been harmed were already damaged,

and the program is STILL fine?]

wordwolf,

I never heard anyone say that this program is above reproach. To put any program on

such a pedestal seems foolish. I reserve the "above reproach" label for God and for Jesus.

There is potential for harm in many many activities in life, including Momentus/Vision Quest.

Nobody is happy when "perfectly healthy" people are harmed by a program that is looking to do

good. To hear that some have been harmed is not by itself reason to throw the program in the

dumpster. The point I am trying to make is that growth often/usually takes risk, though sometimes

the immediate results of risks taken don't seem positive. It seems that perspective and attitude

seem to be the biggest factors in where we go in life.

Wordwolf, I am permanently leaving this GS topic, which has run its course for me. It

has been nice chatting with you.

Regards,

CS

Carribousam, might I respectfully suggest that you might be unaware of the evil precedeing the mid 80s? You would have to I guess in order to believe that twi was healthy before that.

I was there, I have friends that were there. We had horrible things done to us in the name of God.

There are a lot of folks who assume that because they didn`t see the depravity that later engulfed the ministry early that it was non existant. It was there, just a better kept secret is all.

hey rascal.

I would like to know about that stuff. Maybe this forum is a good place to talk about it if u wish.

I was involved from late 70's to mid 80's...I always had lots of questions and didn;t always fit

in well. But I met Jesus, and grew up quite a bit...so it wan;t all bad for me...mostly good.

I did sort of perceive some sort of unhealthy spirit of lust in Way Corps and other leaders...

which is probably why I never got very close to them...

I was and am far from perfect but at least I've avoided a lot of the traps related to being

a participant in a Christian organization.

My point being, you don't blame the sheep for being sheep. The resposibility for the safety of the flock is the shepard's responsibility.

Brambe,

Yes well people aren't sheep in all ways...don;t take the analogy past where it was meant to go.

Believers should be responsible and accountable whether they are in leadership positions or not.

I received both in the mail today. ;)

I got the Sower as well, So John S. is definitely the new prez.

1broken1...Oh, c'mon now...who wants the old fashioned approach to living a Christian life when they can have intense psychological mind scrambling to send them into therapy.

oh groucho...who wants to take a risk when we can merrily sleep walk through our days, ignoring the troubles that are in us, around us, and in the world?! Let's just go on cruise control in our good jobs, wiht our perfect families, in our wealthy land of milk and honey !! It's all good !!

What's that "old fashioned" approach you talk about? Is that the one taught in mainstream churches in the US? The ones whose memberships are in steady decline...wonder why that might be ?

Personally, I think the "crap" that people think they have on the inside is really great beauty.

Don't get me wrong, I know people can be twisted, etc..

But I think a lot of this kind of "training" does little more than confuse someone that their uniqueness and individuality is some kind of evil, to be stamped out with 18 pound bible.

If somebody has REAL issues, they don't need momentus, they need a psychiatrist.

My opinion at least.

Diversity and uniqueness is something that the Bible promotes. Real issues can be dealed with in many ways.

I've knows people who have been going to therapy for 20 years or more, and sometimes it seems like the

greatest beenfactor is the therapist - financially and emotionally. I guess I'm no fan of therapists...though I'm sure

there are lots of good ones out there. I've succesfully gotten through all kinds of junk in my life without "professional"

therapy. Sometimes there are several or many ways to move life's mountains.

tell us about the drugs being prescribed please.... and the psychoanalysis too.

rhino,

I never saw any drugs being prescribed...that's ridiculous.

As I previously said, there was analysis goign on about peoples', thoughts, intents and motivations...

but in the end each participant has to work it all out and sift through possible nuggets

of understanding.

It was not a training that handed out truth to people. Life doesn't work that way. Truth takes time and often

a lot of effort to properly digest. And while it may be said that "Jesus is truth", working this out in one's life

ususally takes a lot of time and effort, even when "the truth" resides within us.

CES/STF has had several major mistakes: Momentus/VisionQuest used as a bludgeoning tool against people without their permission instead of a person using it on themself; Personal Prophecy is used in the same bludgeoning manner against someone like EL without her request or permission; getting in way too deep in personal and marital issues and intertwining these with the day to day relationships of the core people and the running of the ministry. I have personally enjoyed how the "leaders" can be so sinful and broken and yet remain qualified to lead, yet they can condescendingly inform others of their disqualification to serve because of their shortcomings. Then there is all of the psychoanalysis and prescribing of psychotropic drugs going on because of course you are broken, Jesus cannot heal you and you need these things just to get through your day. I wonder who pays for all of this professional help? Maybe there is lots more to come out eh?

Ya wanna come to my fellowship? PUSH, PUSH, PUSH. Hey we got a great program for ya, PUSH PUSH PUSH. Just don't expect

any results from Jesus. My shrink can help you more than him. PUSH Want some xxxxxxx man? I got a few extra. PUSH

gilligan,

I never saw the training used as a bludgeoning tool. I think that your a mixing CES/STFI issues with Vision Quest/ Momentus. Separate organizations. There was some psychoanalysis to understand better our thoughts, intents, and motives. Some are uneasy that the persons doing the analysis weren't "certified." That is an understandable concern, but does not mean that folks doing such analysis were not qualified to do so. Sometimes qualifications are smokescreens for weakness.

I wan't pushed into the training. Someone spoke to me about it, I had some interest, and discussion went forward, etc. It was a pretty normal course of dialogue. It is usually not good to do something that you don't really want to do (although this is not always true).

-CS

[i wonder if this is an INTENTIONAL error-

as in "I'm looking for excuses to dismiss criticism, so I shall pretend that critics have ever objected

to someone having even a single positive experience with Momentus when they have expressed

no such thing";

or a psychological BLIND-SPOT-

as in "I can't see why anyone would care so much about Momentus and still not like

Momentus- they must object to people benefitting from it if they don't like Momentus..."

I can't tell from here.

Either way, it's ERROR- but one is accidental and one is intentional.]

[Any training is bound to have someone who doesn't like it.

That's a non-issue, and pretending it is not is just another smokescreen-

whether intentional or accidental.

There's a big difference between "I don't like the way they do this"

and

"people were being pressured to enter, those running it refused to explain what to

expect, and some of those who took it suffered long-term psychological damage,

and a LOT of those who didn't demonstrated negative personality traits".

Seems a LOT of the people who graduated this "program" and didn't just collapse

decide this thing is right next to the hand of God,

and all criticism is bogus, and all objections must be shouted down,

and even questioning it is forbidden.

Oh, heck, who's surprised? We've seen it demonstrated right on this thread.

People have popped in out of nowhere to attack any dissent,

and NOT with reasoned discussion, most of them....]

One point is that I was trying to make is that it is unfortunate that some GS folks

are very one sided when discussing topics like this. Sure, I understand that many were

part of unhealthy organizations that more or less squelched free thought and speech. But

it ain't heakthy to swing to the other extreme of just talking extemparaneously without

a whole lot of deeper considersation, acknowledgement of conscience, and listening to

that spirit of God.

Dissent is fine, But keep it civil unless there is some burning reason not to.

-CS

[i wonder if this is an INTENTIONAL error-

as in "I'm looking for excuses to dismiss criticism, so I shall pretend that critics have ever objected

to someone having even a single positive experience with Momentus when they have expressed

no such thing";

or a psychological BLIND-SPOT-

as in "I can't see why anyone would care so much about Momentus and still not like

Momentus- they must object to people benefitting from it if they don't like Momentus..."

I can't tell from here.

Either way, it's ERROR- but one is accidental and one is intentional.]

[Any training is bound to have someone who doesn't like it.

That's a non-issue, and pretending it is not is just another smokescreen-

whether intentional or accidental.

There's a big difference between "I don't like the way they do this"

and

"people were being pressured to enter, those running it refused to explain what to

expect, and some of those who took it suffered long-term psychological damage,

and a LOT of those who didn't demonstrated negative personality traits".

Seems a LOT of the people who graduated this "program" and didn't just collapse

decide this thing is right next to the hand of God,

and all criticism is bogus, and all objections must be shouted down,

and even questioning it is forbidden.

Oh, heck, who's surprised? We've seen it demonstrated right on this thread.

People have popped in out of nowhere to attack any dissent,

and NOT with reasoned discussion, most of them....]

Wordwolf,

It sounds like you are apt at doing exactly what you criticize others of....

Nobody has ever said "this thing is right next to the hand of God." I have

said that this training course and one's similar to it have helped many people

a great deal, and have great potential benefit. These types of training aren't

perfect, but for me the potential benefit outweighs the risk.

No smokescreen here - just an attempt at honestly looking at the training.

I've been to one training as a participant, so my breadth of knowledge may

not be complete, but there are others who have had similar results as myself.

Cheers,

CS

Love it Mr. Ham!!!! Please keep the ham rolling....hey wait a minute what happened to psalmie...we could sure use her here that is for sure.

The whole momentus thing was the most downgrading thing there is. Why would someone want to go through it in the first place? If there is such thing as a devil (which I think there may be) then this would have to be put in to the file of devilish.

Vickles, did you actually attend the training ? If you did, I would like to hear your first hand experience, if you are willing....

Dear Hammeroni,

Sorry your experience with Momentous wasn't a good one. I guess it goes with the saying that you can

only please some of the people some of the time, half of the people half of the time, but not all of the people

all of the time (or something like that). What is awesome about that is that we are all uniquely different

and experience life in different ways. How boring would it be if we were all the same. The one common

denominator in our lives that can bind us together is the Christ in us, how cool is that?

Blessings..........

hey undone,

You make excellent points here. It's strange how some are not happy that some

had positive experiences in Momentus/Vision Quest. But I guess that any training

that has potential large positive impact on folks will naturally have its share of

negative reviews.

"Jeeves, bring the thumb screws.."

Ham, I don't always agree with you, but you crack me up.

Yeah, this Momentus thing sounds sketchy at best. I did some prayer ministry sessions called Theophostic Prayer, on the other hand, which was very peaceful and wonderful and emotionally healing. It's basically a combination of counsel, prayer, meditation, listening for God's voice.... it was great. The Lord addressed a whole bunch of old lies in a matter of weeks that had been emotionally crippling me for 30 years.

Some tears, but no screaming. http://www.theophostic.com/ I checked it out before I did it. There were no legal forms involved or I would have said no thanks.

Hey holy smoke,

Any minister or training worth its salt is going to come under the gun from folks who have other opinions. Last time I checked - there's a spiritual war going on out there. People didn't exactly welcome Jesus with open arms when he started doing miracles, etc. They killed him.

I'm not the final judge of the goodness or badness of these programs/trainings. What I want to say is that there are good opportunites for training and growth out there for Christians. Whatever you do, trust that God will be there to sort it all out. Realize that growth is gonna take risk, and there will be some stumbling, and some falling along the way. Don't close yourself in a bubble because you've been hurt or deceived. The peace and joy and love kingdom of god that Jesus calls us to live in is there for the taking, but it does require action and trust in God above all else. Go for it - God will be with you.

As a minister for Christ I could never rightly recommend a program that turned out to be harmful to anyone. So my beef would be that it can't be recommended by a true minister of the true God, TYVM. Now you think about that while you continue all your finger pointing.

I recommended to my wife that she get her driver's license. Despite the fact that daily there are thousands of deaths

due to automobile accidents! I guess I'm not true minister of God. Putting my wife in such danger!! What kind of slug

am I ?!!

Oh ductape - you're ministry is such a soft and loving one, floating on cotton clouds in a land of peace, good will,

and safety. Your followers must be getting along well in this world free of wars, violence, corruption, and sin.

Leaving TWI re-started my personal growth. One of the things I learned from my bad/evil/difficult experiences with that group is that we really shouldn't put our trust in people – when it comes to personal growth or remaining faithful to God...I'm also into discussing experiences with religious groups…I personally think it may benefit you to re-think stuff about Momentus – maybe sharpen up your critical thinking skills ["To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs" as you put it]. Reading these links provided by WordWolf, Hammeroni, and Rich is very disturbing. And looking at some other links like 1Broken1's post # 21 – checking out the Association for Christian Character Development.

http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/2

I see that Momentus now re-appears as Breakthrough. [Also – why the name change? Did anyone cover that?] The excerpts [in bold red] below are from this link http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/345

Breakthrough (formerly Momentus): the four-day breakthrough training gives participants the opportunity to discover and realign the belief systems governing their lives. It serves to help participants experience a transformation in their ability to love others as Christ loves them while liberating their consciences to fulfill God's unique purposes for them with freedom, passion, and power.

Specific objectives include discerning and integrating feedback from others; opening new resources for communicating; overcoming bitterness and other relational blocks and reaching forgiveness; releasing creativity; connecting vitally with what one values most; expressing love in a way that is actually experienced by others; appreciating differing points of view; and becoming internally motivated to act powerfully from one's vision of a life worth living.

And this http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/48 is the source of the excerpts below:

How Do We Determine Our Way?

We are still left with the question, "What is His way?" The signposts along the way are often ambiguous and open to divergent interpretation. God, however, provides us with at least three different compasses to assist us in arriving at our calling: our unique gifting, our unique past, and our unique relationships. He has specially gifted each of us, and these gifts are an integral part of our calling to love God and others.

And while our past by no means determines our future, it is a potent source for discovering it. Our relationships with others form the crucible in which God refines our character. Further, others in our lives are, by God's design, to be the recipient of the fruit of our gifts.

End of excerpts from website

That's right -they don't claim they've cornered the market on truth – but they assert God provides three different compasses – and though signposts along your journey may be ambiguous or open to divergent interpretations they'll be more than happy to take your money and tell you what it all means.

I see this stuff as being like those get-rich-quick books. The only ones who get anything from this stuff are the people selling this stuff. Do people really believe there's a get-spiritual-quick-program, or some transforming seminar? In my opinion, the only growth they accelerate is that of the ego. Is it so disappointing if all we get out of Christianity is Christ? Colossians 2:3 does say in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

…How does a Christian grow and become fruitful? I don't think it can be by any artificial process directed by man or by any shortcuts – not true Christian growth. A Christian's growth is something deeply personal and according to the following passage is a dynamic process of being faithful to Jesus Christ - and the Father, as the Master Gardener, is the only one qualified to remove the things that keep us from bearing fruit.

John 15: 1-5 NASB

1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

yo t-bone !

The conversations about this seem to be going in circles. So I'll just say a few words or two, and jump out of the circle for a while...

That's the first time I've heard the stuff about signposts along the way...though I kind of like how they put it. There's a lot of truth there. You talk about folks in these trainings taking your money and interpreting the signposts for you. That is exactly what they DIDN'T do. Yes - I paid money for a class. $150 or something like that - big deal. But in my experience there was never anyone human there to interpret the signposts. There was a God and Jesus there with me who did interpret a lot of signposts. And I did learn a whole lot about how to better trust God in sorting out the "signposts" of life. God can and does work with us as we are. He loves us and wants to make all of our experiences be a time of learning and growth.

A spritual get rich quick program is not at all how I experienced it. I gotta believe that a lot of the over the top negative stuff out there is from folks who had experiences in the classes that were less than fruitful or negative. It's hard for me to say what percentage of folks had postive experiences. The program as I saw it was a program of great potential benefit - with some benefit coming quickly, and some over a longer term period of time. But like any program, I saw that there was a potential that some could get nothing out of the program. Those who came to sit back and sow nothing probably didn't get much out of it. Those who put a lot into the program got a lot out of it.

I'm guessing here about these numbers, but in my training there were 13 people. I'd say 3 got a lot out of the experience. 5 people got a moderate amount of understanding. 4 people didn't get much out of it. 1 person quit after the start - refusing to sign the disclaimer.

If Jesus is really strongly present in any situation, that can bring about personal peace and resolutiuon of issues. Close experiences with Jesus can also lead to situations where people close to you will be offended by your changes - they can no longer push your buttons and make you part of their unholy kingdoms. That is part of what these trainings are/were about. What I'm trying to say is - any real good work sponsored by God and Jesus will not be praised and lauded by all. If this is the case, the training is probably not worth much. Satan and all of his companions and unwitting associates start getting their collective asses in gear when they see the seeds of understanding and godliness starting to take root and blossom among his enemies.

If anyone here besides myself in GS Land has actual experience in a training - Momentus, Vision Quest, or Breakthrough - I would like to hear about it. It's good to have hard data about experiences in the training. Sometimes the web and blogsphere blabber isn't a great representative of reality.

Cheers !

CS

I would have to ask what is the goal of the training/education and who is the target audience?...And just because Christ is mentioned frequently doesn't necessarily make something Christian. Jesus Christ is mentioned quite frequently in PFAL but that was mere window dressing – it's indeed mystifying how a student can sit through the PFAL Class hearing Christ's name so much and yet life down the road for the grad is one of TWI leadership taking the place of the absent Christ. Paul did warn Christians of people preaching a different Jesus or gospel [II Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9].

Another thing that concerns me is how a group will put together "the latest and greatest Bible truth in a seminar guaranteed to change your life or your money back" – this bothers me when I recall Jesus' own words, "Freely you have received – freely give" [Matthew 10:8]. I guess we need to update His directive to: "Charge a fair market price for anything bearing My logo…and be sure to get the Release of Liability forms signed…in triplicate."

Can a training program be helpful to some and hurtful to others? Sure – I think of things like the military [they'd boot me out of boot camp the first week], a cooking class [if you ate my cooking you'd be hurt too], a masters program in economics [that right there would kill me]…Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.

…And there's one other aspect of something that may have harmful effects. This may or may not apply to you…so take it for what it's worth…Sometimes people don't realize the harm they've sustained during an experience – especially to the mind. And in order to fix a problem you must first be aware that there is a problem…I left TWI twenty years ago over intellectual reasons [doctrinal issues and the freedom to think and disagree] – and life has been great! Now I've been coming to GSC for only a year. Wow – it's quite an adventure – I've gone even deeper – exposing pockets of their residual poison - their insidious doctrines and mindset had infiltrated and polluted my faith…This time around as I review my TWI experience and talk to others at GSC – my beef with TWI is a lot more than just intellectual issues now. The moral issues loom so large. Doctrinal stuff…well…so many things we could argue about all day long…but I don't see any room for debate on the clear moral standards of the Bible. I'm not suggesting there's any moral issues with CES or any offshoots I'm just using my issues with TWI as an example – what I am suggesting is you may have taken some serious hits to your intellect/emotions/faith – but just haven't realized it yet.

So what's my point? May I suggest you lay off any promotional ads of training programs for awhile…My take on GSC is that it's a place where people come together to sort out their experience with a religious group and in a collective effort now experience healing, understanding and growth…But that's just my take on it. A great place for any doctrinal haggling is in the Doctrinal forum. I even started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God after thinking on some of the things discussed about CES and prophecy. Come – join the party.

Regarding this comment you made:

Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.

That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this.

TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures.

I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs.

Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.

Pond please call Dr Phil!!!!!!

hey Rich - good one !!! Perfect !

The entire bible story is about what Jesus christ did for us. every single bit of it.

all this research and word knowledge comes down to this : the victory of Jesus christ over death.

it is the story of men both adams making choices to obey God or not.

one did one didnt .

the MIRICLE of the new birth isnt in the fact YOU did anything , Christ died not you, so now you never will. If you believe He is risen and LORD and KING.

you know I think people dismiss this fact all together.

Christ willing to die...... dead meant DEAD, He had no proof he wouldnt be a bucket of worms in a few weeks, IT was NOT written about the new birth for all.

God told them to wait for the prophet who would save them, they thought a man would come along and become a great leader and they would then be able to rise as the great nation they wanted once again.

that is what people still want today looking for a leader to take the people to what they think they deserve in life as worshipers of a god better than the rest. a nation with more powerful than the rest of those who do not know God.

do you not get that THEY WERE WRONG !!! and if your looking for the same ideals to happenin life your just as wrong as they who crucified the LORD were wrong???

that is not the plan as it worked out hahahahhaha

no man is going to lead you into anything , other than his or her will .

IT is DONE the will of God was accomplished by ONE MAN already finished YOU can not improve it or make it happen again or spin it or advertise it anymore.

that is why it is such good news.

pond,

There are some grains of truth in your ramblings. But you go way over the deep end sometimes, and your rantings

don't make any sense.

Sounds like an over reaction to something or other that you've been through....

Relax...sit back on my couch...take a deep breath....and let it all out...slowly...slowly though...you can get through this crap. I've been through the crapper and near the valley of death...Jesus and God are good...and they can help you through it...no I'm not trying to be condescending or funny...but as rich says, your boat is sinking and you need to grab onto a paddle, or fix the boat, or get out of the water, or buy a new boat...or else move away from the water....love you buddy !!

CS

I think that if a person experiences harm and damage from an event others say is healthy and personally fulfilling, then those who had a bad experience should speak up, loudly. That is, if they care about other humans who might have a similar damaging experience, and are on the cusp of a decision.

To me, to decide the experience was damaging because they weren't 'personally responsible' enough, to shut up about harmful things because they 'believed ' it into being, is further damage to that person, and to others down the road.

It takes those that do evil to others off the hook.

Saw alot of that in TWI--to speak about a problem, to be 'bitter' and 'negative' was worse than actually doing the evil to your brother.

Lots of wiggle room in 'sin,' seems to me.

Don't let the 'victim haters' shut you up!

Edited, as always, for typos.

Speaking up is very important. Deciding who is repsonsible for evil is sometimes not easy. Ultimately we are all flawed and sinners. But the only way to grow is to take accountability, look honestly at our selves, and work towards better more godly ways of life.

Clearly there were TWI leaders who were nasty nasty leaders, and I'm certain that God and Jesus look at abuse by those in authority as a very serious matter.

Luckily I stayed basically on the fringes of TWI for about 7-9 years...I learned a lot, I learned to love God, Jesus, the Bible, and my fellow believers. It was the start of a life of very fruitful prayer, worship, and fellowship with God. But I never much liked the leadership style of many of the Way Corps folks - some were ok I guess, but a lot of them gave me the creeps...they were too much into controlling things, creating a model of God and godliness that just didn't line up with the purposes of Adonai. And not lining up with the right purposes moves the journey to places of ungodly desert or wilderness...after that, a lot of folks pull them selves together, figure things out, and search for greener pastures and true fellowhip. At least that's what I did.

-CS

And Christ is for all that believe, so how about showing us where Christ is in the programs. In the programs for all to see and not just some.

BTW, vultures don't move in for the kill at any sign of weakness. They are carcass critters, you know bone-pickers and I personally see more bone-picking from the CES/STFI leaders.......

yo ducttape, Christ was all over the place in the training. Christ was not explicitly mentioned in the training pamphlet. The training was not reserved for Christians only. Most in the training were Christians.

So a couple questions for you - is it possible that there could exist types of training that are good for some, but for others - potentially hurtful ? If this is the case, is the training "bad?" Stop ranting and give this some thought....

GS - a land of whiners and complainers !!! (and now I'm becoming infected too!!!)

Yep.. sketchy, at best..

Looks like a recipe for disaster- take people who by their own admission are not up to the par of professional psychologists, add a hold harmless agreement, and some "willing" victims.. bake for 3 days on high.. sheesh.

Some of the good guys around here, that have been through that pressure cooker- I highly doubt they were the ones to vote death their team mates in the lifeboat exercise.

To me, it looks more like an exercise in obnoxiousness and arrogance for those who were so inclined to begin with.

Just remove the rest of the "restraints"..

The exercises were to make people think about, among other things, life, our choices in life, and hte consequences of our choices. The life boat exercise wasn't my favorite, though it did make me think about what it means to "give my life to God" or "die for my brother/sister." But I didn't agree with some of the analysis afterward.

It seems that most people here think that the Momentus/Visoinm Quest training is generally bad or harmful. But that could just be part of the general way of thinking in the US that puts blame on others instead of being more concerned with taking responsibility for our own thoughts and actions. A lot of us have become a weak bunch of whining and complaining victims. The road I like is different...a road paved with forgiveness and forgiveness and forgiveness...not that I should or will be unaware of sin in me and around me, but as much as possible I'll strive to keep the multitude sin viruses from living in me.

"Jeeves, bring the thumb screws.."

Ham, I don't always agree with you, but you crack me up.

Yeah, this Momentus thing sounds sketchy at best. I did some prayer ministry sessions called Theophostic Prayer, on the other hand, which was very peaceful and wonderful and emotionally healing. It's basically a combination of counsel, prayer, meditation, listening for God's voice.... it was great. The Lord addressed a whole bunch of old lies in a matter of weeks that had been emotionally crippling me for 30 years.

Some tears, but no screaming. http://www.theophostic.com/ I checked it out before I did it. There were no legal forms involved or I would have said no thanks.

Hi holy smoke,

I think that a lot of the talk about Monmentus here has greatly exaggerated things like screaming, etc. My experience of the training was that there were some healing emotional releases for some...but no screaming that I can recall. Like your Theophostic Prayer, it was a way to bring healing by listening to God's voice and seeing God's spirit in action. God works in many ways, more than just through quiet counsel, meditation, and prayer. That stuff is all good, but what I'm saying is - don't put God in a box. He created life and a world that is incredibly diverse, and his ways to heal and nurture his people are also very diverse. IMHO.

CS

My point being, you don't blame the sheep for being sheep. The resposibility for the safety of the flock is the shepard's responsibility.

Right I agree with that.

Jesus is the Good Shepherdand there are some that are co-worker shepherds.

Gotta get back to my farm...the chickens are sqwaking the cows need milking, and the

barn needs fixin' - it's cold up here in Caribou, Maine.

Love and peace from CS...

i'm not vicious or bitter, sam. but i have no patience for judgmental clowns in "christian" clothing. you don't even see it, with that beam in your eye--the smug, self-righteousness. the know-it-all attitude under the veneer of pseudo-humility. i'd feel bad for you, but to be honest, i'm fresh out of compassion for folks like you. (what did jesus call them? oh, yeah--hypocrites.)

so if the object of "mov[ing] onward and upward" is to get to where you are, no thanks.

nice post, rascal! well said!

Hey sprawled out. OK, if that's your attitude then I will see u later pal. I don't have time for you.

I'm trying to lay the facts as I see them. To me, you are very blind and arrogant, and my time is

valuable. I won't hold anything against you, but for now will put you on my ignore list. (I can hear

you cheering!!)

CS