starbird

Limitations of knowledge would not necessarily indicate Jesus is less than divine. For that matter, one could say Jesus has one-up on the Father by His first-hand knowledge of temptation, suffering and death CHOOSING not to sin under the brunt of each and every instance.

Maybe it's a matter of focusing only on the distinctions between Father and Son – which certainly indicates two persons and not considering the other familial aspects of the terms – that indicate similarity. My son came from my wife and I – he is not me or my wife. My son and I are two distinct individuals. Genetically, we're of the same species– we both have a human nature.

Jesus Christ is truly a unique being – Philippians 2 indicates He has TWO natures – human and divine. He is called the Son of Man [human nature] and the Son of God [divine nature]. Matthew and Luke record human genealogies but John states the divine lineage…In the beginning was the Word…the Word was with God…the Word was God…The Word became flesh. I don't think the term "the Son of God" is in reference to His Immaculate Conception – that was His human nature – as the Son of Man. The miraculous aspects of His birth don't appear to be the issue when the religious leaders were in an uproar over His claim of God being His Father – it was the inference of an actual lineage, a real [as opposed to a virtual] kinship between the two – an equivalency of divinity, being of the same "species" so to speak:

John 5:17,18 NASB

17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."

18 For this reason therefore ^(M)the Jews ^(N)were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, ^(O)making Himself equal with God.

I guess it's a matter of opinion – how one could interpret Jesus' statements of Himself – that indicate His familial relationship and identity – is He less than divine or merely distinguishing Himself from the Father: the Father is greater than I…the Father has sent Me…not My will but Thy will be done…I and the Father are one…he that has seen Me has seen the Father.

he that has seen Me has seen the Father.

because he was in his image not because he is god, he was carrying out gods will..on earth.

if a child looks like a parent you here people say he's/she's the model of her/his mother/father.

yes i agree about the same species thing...but they are different as in roles..they are not the same being..god is the father jesus his son

plain and simple jesus is gods son....

thats how god identified jesus..

all the human points of view on this subject does not change that..

"concerning that day and hour nobody knows, niether the angels of the heavens

nor the son {jesus}

but only the father" {matthew 24:36}

if jesus and god were the same being, jesus would know the day and hour.

but here he specifically says he does not know, only the father knows..

"look! also, there was a voice from the heavens that said "this is my son, the beloved,

whom i have approved" {matthew 3:17}

"a revelation by jesus christ which god gave him to show his slaves the things that must shortly

take place" {revelation 1:1}

Sorry I'm just now getting back to you...

I wasn't a JW, perse, but my nanny was. My parents permitted her to bring me to the Kingdom Hall, out witnessing, etc. - I don't think they really understood what was going on and they worked a lot. I was also her ears in someways, as she was deaf, and she taught me sign language (just simple stuff really - I probably couldn't converse with it for long.)

Interestingly enough, I was raised Mormon.

Then, I joined The Way.

Boy, now that I look at it, I'm just a cult 'ho, aren't I?

ROTFL.. :)

starbird x x x

Okay, Christians believe in heaven. They believe in the Old testament.

Jews believe in the Old testament. They do not believe in heaven or hell.

Why don't Jews believe in heaven and hell and Christians do?

apparently they do believe in heaven and hell..it differs slightly from how christians

believe in them..but they do believe in both

starbird x x x

Starbird, it is interesting that you view Judaism as the first religion and then move from that to Adam, Eve and Satan. You might be interested in knowing that Judaism does not believe in the Devil, even remotely. At least, not even remotely akin to how Christians believe in the Devil. The concept of Satan and the Devil is very much figurative in Judaism.

so what religion was moses and abraham..

satan was around at the begining {if you believe the bible}

dont those who practice judaism believe in the old testament?

"then jehovah said to satan " where have you come from" at that satan answered

jehovah and said "from roving about in the earth and walking about in it" {job 2:2}

starbird x

welcome eyesopen

love your pic

starbird x x x

Starbird stated:

According to your religion it is. At one time JW's were not allowed to have organ transplants. The WTS reversed its decision on that years ago. It's now a "conscience matter." Many JW's have had organ transplants. There have even been Awake articles featuring experiences of JW's who have had transplants without receiving blood transfusions. It doesn't sound like you know a whole lot about this religion you're head over heals for.

Here's another thing you may not know. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is made up of a group of men in New York. Decisions on major issues like blood transfusions and organ donations are made by vote. There are many issues on which members of the GB disagree, but the majority vote goes down as doctrine: the "light" of God. It's because of the disagreement within the GB that rules within the religion change. Organ transplantation was against the religion's laws until enough members of the GB agreed that it could be scripturally justified. Then the law was changed and it became a conscience matter. JW's who formerly died without choice, now have the option of organ donation if they choose. There are members of your organization, active Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe in the truth of your religion and support the GB, but who think that the WTS's stand on blood transfusions is wrong. They are not allowed to actively oppose the GB out of fear of being disassociated for apostacy. However, some members of the WTS as well as some active elders secretly support a reform on blood transfusions. Hopefully one day your GB leaders will change the rules on blood like they did organ transplantation so that your members don't continue to needlessly die without choice. Until then, the sheep will continue to blindly follow their master to the slaughter.

Nad

yes nadia good points they have been noted...i wouldnt have organs...

starbird x

WordWolf you certainly are well-spoken to say the least...you so often present such a well informed and logical reply that I find it an actual pleasure to take your words in.

So many excellent responses here, I really enjoy them. I used to be of the same mind as the JW's on the topic of blood transfusion but not to the extreme that I would withhold blood from a family member in a life-or-death situation. It was more along the lines of optional transfusions, given as a matter of course, but not absolutely necessary in the doctor's opinion.

I would still rather not have one or authorize the giving of one if I were in the position of having to decide, but since my grandmother died because of blindly sticking to JW rhetoric, I would definitely not rule it out.

Especially not on JW religious grounds, since that religion changes its doctrine like some people change telephone service providers...every few years.

if you dont mind, can i ask why you would still rather not have a transfusion

starbird x x x

Starbird stated: The JW’s are also opposed to cannibalism. If it’s not okay to eat another human’s flesh or organs, why is it okay to transplant another person’s flesh or organ’s into your body? By your logic, surely it’s not okay to have a stranger’s organs in your body if it’s not okay to eat them.

Not according to the WTS. According to the WTS, the general theme of the Bible is God’s Kingdom, with Christ ruling as king. Surely you know what the theme of your own Bible is according to your own religion?

In fact, there are often times when doctors recommend various treatments for medical reasons even though they are not recommended for other reasons. Most doctors discourage the use of narcotics for pleasure, just as most discourage eating blood. They’re not healthy practices. On the other hand, most doctors commonly prescribe narcotics to treat pain under medical supervision when medically beneficial, just as they recommend taking blood transfusions when medically beneficial. JW’s forbid use of narcotics recreationally, citing scriptures about their connections to spiritism, yet take them without hesitation when medically prescribed. What’s the difference?

You “bet” it wouldn’t have been acceptable? Wow, and to think of how many people’s lives have been risked and lost on that wager.

A friend of mine went in for back surgery. The surgeon severed her aorta and she bled out on the operating table and died. Had she not had that surgery, she would probably be alive today. A patient I took care of had an epidural inserted 20 years earlier during surgery. Somehow the epidural left him paralyzed. Had he not consented to the epidural, he’d be walking today. Every year many people suffer complications and even fatalities because of medication errors made by doctors, nurses, and pharmacists. Perhaps we should abstain from all surgeries, epidurals, medications, and medical procedures because of the potential risks. But you don’t think that, do you? JW’s are inconsistent when they make this argument. They will accept most medical interventions despite the risks. The only time they don’t is when it conflicts with their biased religious beliefs.

Your friend’s sister is rare to experience a fatal reaction to a blood transfusion. My brother is a JW. His best friend severed his femoral artery in an accident. He was otherwise fine. He had no other injuries. He was air-cared to a level 3 trauma center and was still alive on arrival, but he was bleeding profusely. He refused a blood transfusion because he was a JW. The doctors tried volume expanders and everything else they could to save him, but it wasn’t enough. Given the nature of his injury, it’s very likely that he would have survived had he accepted the blood. Instead, at the age of 20 he left behind a young wife, baby daughter, parents, siblings, and a whole bunch of friends who loved him. My brother cried for weeks. A friend of mine hemorrhaged during childbirth. It’s extremely rare for a woman to die during childbirth today, especially with good medical care, but she refused a blood transfusion. She left behind a husband and five children because she refused the blood. Your story is a rare case. Those who die because of not taking blood are common cases.

Take responsibility for your decision to refuse blood, Starbird, and recognize it for what it is. It is not a responsible medical decision. It is a religious decision, and that’s all it is.

Starbird stated:

Wow, you jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. Ouch!

Nad

[/quote

wow they really hurt you didnt they:

whos to say your brothers friend would have survived with a blood transfusion.

no one can say..if he was bleeding that much..

my uncle was stabbed and was also bleeding profusely all the blood in the uk wouldnt

have saved him..

its not ok to have other peoples organs..

by general theme i meant on the blood issue because someone had said that it was

done away with in the new testament..so i was pointing out that the theme on blood

went all through the bible..i know what the theme of my bible is..it should be the same

as yours. my friends sisters case isnt isolated thousands of people are infected with

diseases through having blood transfusions..

who can say what people would die through not having a blood transfusion.

ok perhaps the heroin example was not very good but you get the general idea

of what i'm saying....street heroin isnt good which ever way it gets there..

say cleaning fluid then ..its not a good idea to drink it so it wouldnt be a good idea

to have it your veins either..

i do take responsability for not wanting blood..i never said it wasnt a religious decision.

it is a religious decision...my religious decision.

i had many ouches and burns before...

being raised c of e...and all the other farcical churches i went to and being

told "the prophecies arnt your concern..."

amonst other things..

starbird x x x

why not? why dont they store their own blood for transfusion purposes?

Is it not your own blood if it temererly leaves your body?

what type of tests involing blood?

I cant imagine this means a simple blood test to see if you are sick or not.

If they dont store thier own blood. (still asking why not?) then what procedures are you talking about?

If people are willing to do die for this rule, there must be some clearly defined rules regarding extactly what is and isnt ok to do with your OWN blood.

Leonardo

no it dosnt mean blood tests..

jws have to be well informed so that they can make their own conscientious decisions.

e.g:

cell salvage...reduces blood loss..

blood is recovered during surgery from a wound or body cavity. it is washed and

filtered and then, perhaps in a continuous process returned to the patient...

hemodilution...reduces blood loss..

during surgery, blood is diverted to bags and replaced with a non-blood volume expander.

thus the blood remaining in the patient during surgery is diluted, containing fewer red blood

cells. during or at the end of surgery, the diverted blood is returned to the patient.

heart-lung-machine...maintains circulation..

blood is diverted to an atificial heart-lung machine where it is oxygenated and

directed back to the patient.

dialysis...functions as an organ.

in hemodialysis, blood circulates through a machine that filters and cleans it before

returning it to the patient.

epidural blood patch...stops spinal fluid leakage...

a small amount of the patients own blood is injected into the membrane surrounding the

spinal cord. it is used to seal a puncture site that is leaking spinal fluid.

plasmapheresis..treats illness..

blood is withdrawn and filtered to remove the plasma,a plasma substitute is added

, and the blood is returned to the patient. some doctors may use plasma from another

person to replace that from the patients blood. if so this is unacceptable for jehovahs witnesses.

labeling or tagging...diagnoses or treats illness..

some blood is withdrawn mixed with medicine and returned to the patient.

the length of time ones blood is outside the body may vary.

platelet gel; autologous{meaning made from your own blood}..seals wounds, reduces bleeding

some blood is withdrawn and concentrated into a solution rich in platelets and white cells

this solution is applied on surgical sites or wounds..

{in some formulations a clotting factor taken from cows blood is used}so before having

this treatment this would have to be checked

the reason for not storing own blood is the amount of time it might be stored outside the body.

the flow being interupted..again this would be a personal decision of conscience.

it is each ones own decision on what treatment to recieve {apart from someone elses blood}

and no one is critisized for what ever decision they come to..the decision must be our

own..{apart from someone elses blood} "each one will carry his own load" of responsability.

{gal.6:4,5}

starbird x x x

hang on a minute...hold your horses...

what was the first religion...judaism..

if you believe in god then you believe he created the earth the whole adam & eve thing.

in the very begining satan {the original serpent} was around then... before the egyptians.

other false gods came into the equation later..as a way for satan to take people away from

worshipping the only true god..look at all the different gods that egyptians had, the romans,

the greeks, the babylonians..

"for this is what jehovah has said, the creator of the heavens, he the true god, the former

of the earth and the maker of it, he the one who firmly established it, who did not create it

simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited; "i am jehovah, and besides me there

is no one else" {isaiah 45:18}

"for all the gods of the peoples are valueless gods as for jehovah, he made the heavens"

{1 chron.16:26}

starbird x x x

So you dont see the possiblilty that they could be corrupted? The JWs that is.

putting your trust in the WTS is putting your faith in man, not God.

Which do you read more, the watchtower (and other JW books) or the bible?

you said somewhere on another post, something to the effect that you dont follow mans traditions. Which is why I ask.

would you say the watchtower is as inspired as the bible?

If the bible is so simple to understand, then why does any one need a WT to explain it?

do you believe that God would want to destory people, who truely love Him, but dont follow the JWs? People who read the bible but dont read the WT. People who come to thier own conclusions.

Leonardo

i dont think the jehovahs witnesses are corrupted..but thats not to say none of jehovahs

witnesses sin we all sin every day they know that as much as anyone..

i put my faith in god...not the watchtower society.. i have regard for them of course..

because i think they have the right doctrine of the bible..

i read the bible more..i study the watchtower and other books as an aid to the bible.

what i mean by mans traditions is patriotism..etc

i think the watchtower and other study books are written by men who are inspired by god.

by inspired i mean motivation by divine influence.

so the bible is more inspired as god and jesus actually spoke to the prophets and writers

of the bible

its not that you need a watchtower to explain the bible...the writers of the watchtower

write on subjects that are relevent for things that are happening...

of course god dosnt want to destroy anyone he loves us all we are his creation

"however let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones that one day is with

jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. jehovah is not slow

respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness but he is patient with you

because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain

repentance" {2peter 3:8,9}

"i jehovah, am your god the one teaching you to benefit yourself, the one causing you to tread

in the way in which you should walk.

O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! then your peace

would become just like a river and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

and your offspring would become just like the sand and the descendants from

your inward parts like the grains of it. ones name would not be cut off or annihilated

from before me" {isaiah 48:17-19}

starbird x x x

[DUUUHHHH.

But it says that defilement of a man has nothing to do with anything that enters him-

and that means "regardless of the method of entry."

The words "regardless of the method of entry" aren't there,

but that is the plain English meaning of what it says when the general

word "enters" is used, as opposed to specifying "eaten" or the like.

Therefore, that which enters a man can't defile him if he eats it,

or is transfused with it,

or he inhales it,

or he gets a skin patch,

or it's administered through a suppository.

That's because it "entered" him, and Jesus categorically dismissed

all methods of entry unilaterally as methods of defilement.

Now, I can take HIS word for it, or I can take YOUR word for it.

This is not a tough decision.]

[Especially the ones Jesus said don't apply SPECIFICALLY.]

[Your quotation left something out.

Why do your verses run incomplete?

You left out abstaining from "things strangled."

Ok, so if your understanding is correct,

Jesus said it's ok, and Acts said it's not ok.

Here are the possibilities.

A) the Bible is contradictory, unreliable, and devoid of authority.

Therefore, the "no transfusion" thing is devoid of authority.

B) the Gospel reference is misunderstood.

Well, Jesus went on at length explaining.

He covered anything entering the body.

Scratch that possibility.

C) the Acts reference is misunderstood.

What makes this obvious is that the Epistles later go into why it's good

for some people to not eat, and why it's good for some people to eat-

when it's the same food both times.

The emphasis is not on the "blood", but on "things offered to idols"-

the strangled offerings and blood offered to idols.

They really weren't supposed to participate in pagan worship ceremonies

anymore, so lay off the pagan ceremonies, the oxen, the garlands,

the orgies, the offerings of things strangled, and the offerings of blood.

So, the rules didn't change in Acts, after Jesus spoke.]

[Literally or symbolically, it was his blood. Jesus knew the rules.

Good thing eating could no longer defile a man, according to no less an authority

than Jesus Christ.]

[sounds like an ironclad case to shut up about food and drink-

which, according to you, somehow includes transfusions, since that supposedly

was what was included in the OLD rules that included food and drink.]

[You seem reluctant to actually post the relevant verses...]

starbird x x x

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:

" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

===========

Romans 14

Principles of Conscience

1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

2©One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5(I)One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;

8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For (Q)we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,

"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,

AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;

17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

19So thenwe pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.

2-Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.

21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

=================

Romans 14

New International Version (NIV)

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:

" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.' " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Romans 14

Principles of Conscience

1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

2©One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to (F)judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;

8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,

"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,

AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;

17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.

20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.

21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he whodoes not condemn himself in what he approves.

23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

===================

New King James Version (NKJV)

Romans 14

The Law of Liberty

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and roseand lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:

“ As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these thingsis acceptable to God and approved by men.

19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.22 Do you have faith?Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

=================

[There you have it in 3 different versions.

"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is NOTHING UNCLEAN OF ITSELF."

Looks like attempts to twist the verses to get them to reverse and disallow something taken into

the body are a failure.]

"to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols AND from blood AND from things strangled

AND from fornication. if you keep yourselves from these things you will prosper.

good health to you" {acts 15:29}

i know what its says in acts the reason i didnt put the strangled and fornication bit

was because i was just making the point that the blood thing was still important to

early christians. it says all four things should be abstained from.

your other comments have been noted....as i said earlier i'll take my chances,

you take yours....

as i said i'm not judging anyone i'm not worthy to judge anyone..

its my belief so i wrote a post about it..

its not your belief..thats fine.

starbird x

Starbird I have a question for you.

Would the JWs allow a member have his OWN blood stored for an emergancy?

Leonardo

although jehovahs witnesses do not donate or store their own blood for

transfusion purposes, some procedures or tests involving an individuals blood

are not so clearly in conflict with bible priciples. therefore, each individual should

make a conscientious decision as to whether to accept or reject some types

of medical procedures involving the use of his or her own blood.

starbird x x x

Perhaps I can answer that Chas. Starbird has already ignored Socks asking the same question,

and I hate to see my guitar talk buddies being ignored, so here goes.

Starbird was never in twi (that much has been admitted by star here already).

Star saw a post on Jehovah Witnesses Online (JWO) where Refiner, Roy, and I were talking.

In one of the posts, star saw a link to GSC, and came here.

How do I know this? She (I think a *she* - I could be wrong), told me so in chat here.

Starbird was in chat here at GSC, quoted a verse (for whatever reason),

and gave the scripture reference. It sounded familiar, but it wasn't KJV or NIV.

On a hunch -- I pulled out my copy of NWT (New World Translation), used by JW's.

Star's verse was word for word what I read here in the NWT.

So I pm'd star here in the chatroom, and asked about it.

Star asked why I asked, and I told star that was what I was reading from my copy of NWT.

So star admitted it. Then I asked starbird, "How did you hear about GSC?"

Star told me about the link seen from the thread where Refiner, Roy, and myself were talking.

So I guess it's because of me and that link, that star's here.

(I'm assuming I'm the one who posted that link,

although Roy does also, when certain subjects here are being discussed),

that seem *applicable* to a discussion going on over there.

Regardless -- I don't know of anyone over on JWO named starbird.

Meebe starbird is trolling there as someone else, since JWO is EX JW,

just as we at GSC are EX twi.

Starbird is (as is obvious by recent posts), still a *GUNG-HO* Jehovah's Witness.

The crowd at JWO is rougher than ours, 10x over.

Toleration for an active JW there is non-existant.

*Snowball's chance in hell" comes to mind.

So there you have it. I doubt starbird would have said how she came here.

Starbird's ignored MANY direct questions already. What's one more??

:unsure:

erm excuse me i have answered many times how i came to be here.....

if you hadnt noticed i've been a bit snowed under....

i didnt duck that question at all why should i.....i told you on chat and many others.

how i came to be here..

the reason i was on that ex jw site was i didnt realise it was ex jw at first.

untill i read through a few posts..it dosnt say ex jehovahs witness on the title

it just said jehovahs witness discussion..when i realised i left...

and to think you were so nice to me on chat....

starbird

Did they tell you about how they pinpointed the DAY that Armageddon would start? (Basically, the day the world was going to end.)

Yep... they did - it was a public thing they released back in the late 70's. How do I know? I was there. :unsure:

All hell was going to break loose that day - it was scary as hell. I really thought that a crack in the pavement was going to swallow me up that day.

Anyhow, you know what? It didn't happen. How do I know? I'm STILL HERE. :)

My Bible says that if a prophet is a true prophet then what he/she says will come to pass. In the Old Testament, prophets were stoned to death for a false prophesy. Thank God for grace, eh? (Whoops - JW's don't believe in grace, do they? )

(This isn't me saying your church president should be stoned - only that saved by grace is a doctrinal difference. I am very tolerant of other religions/beliefs.)

I will say that the one thing I did take away from my JW experience was the one God (non-trinity) belief that I still hold true today. I still believe that God is Jesus Christ's father and that they are not one with the Holy Spirit, etc. They are on the ball with that teaching.

Maybe you've answered this on other posts - so please forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself - but what were your ties to The Way? I'm just curious what brings you here - you're most certainly welcome - I'm just intrigued by your current beliefs, I must admit.

yes i was aware that they gave a date in the 70s..

and obviously were wrong..

they pinpointed the start of the last days 1914...i think that is about right when you look

how things have panned out since then though..

i havent any ties with the way i came here by accident if you like.. i clicked on someones

link on another forum something about mormans, and because i was involved with them

i wanted to see what it was about.. and here i am...

i'd never heard of the way before then..

how i look at the dates thing "no one knows the day or the hour"

and we {people} can only go by the things that are happening and give a rough estimate.

and as things in the world are unfolding i'm even more convinced..

people have said to me whens babylon going to fall..i think its already started..

nothing i see on the news surprises me anymore...especially whats happening with

the muslim religion and other religions..now its like i'm half expecting things, when they happen.

how long were you a jw for? if you dont mind me asking.

starbird x x x

i've looked into and been part of many religions in the past,

but i'd always be questioning certain things...

then i started to talk to the jws...and that was it something just clicked,

i read somethings especially on the propecies on the last days

{world powers etc} and my blood would run cold..

i'm going back 25 yrs...things i learnt - slowly i could see starting to happen..

i'm convinced now absolutley convinced...

i didnt go into it easily i gave them hell to start with....

for me, they are right. i looked into it took it apart and examined it.

that was that...

starbird x x x

i believe when we die we are dead/asleep.

then after armaggedon the dead will be resurrected to life on earth.

"the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of

nothing at all" {eccl.9:5}

"his spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground; in that day his thoughts do perish" {ps.146:4}

"we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow

just as the rest also do who have no hope" {1 thess.4:13}

"do not marval at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs

will hear his {jesus} voice and come out" {john 5:28,29}

"evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in jehovah are the ones that will

possess the earth....The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find

their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace......The righteous themselves will

possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it" {psalms 37:9,11,29}

"happy are the mild tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth" {matthew 5:5}

starbird x x x

:D :D :D

starbird x x x

ok starbird,

define resurrection

in other words,

what do you mean by resurrection

same as life after death (no matter when it happens or happened),

or something different

for instance, there are all these....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

i'm getting so that i'm scared to say anything here

by resurrection i mean....to be resurrected from death to life on earth.

starbird x x x

Been there ~ done that ~ got the t-shirt for "brainless defense of defenseless doctrines"

That's why I've engaged Starbird where I might not normally. This is a safe place for her to practice defending what she claims to believe. There aren't any JW's here to 'turn her in' or try to figure out who she is. Defending what she's been taught in her own words and, if she would actually do some of her own research and thinking, she may come to accept that just maybe the JW's doctrine isn't perfect and that, just maybe, just maybe, they're actually - gasp! - wrong about some things.

It's those people who challenged me while I was still in the thick of way-brain doctrines that have come to my remembrance at times when I began clearing the fog from my brain. As I kept questioning and defending the TWI doctrine, I kept running into roadblocks in my own ability to defend it. Eventually, I had to admit that the problem was with the doctrines I was trying to defend.

A lot of folks here can discuss, debate and argue without letting emotions get too involved or heated - we're mostly willing to debate and discuss things with the mindset that we've certainly been proven wrong once already, wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. But you'll have to do a darn good job of convincing and proving that the current position is incorrect. So far, Starbird hasn't even come close, imo.

why thanks belle for engaging with me where you might not normally. this place safe...you are kidding. i'm not claiming to believe, i do believe. so if i were catholic there wouldnt be a problem?

for they defend what they are taught, as do methodists and others.i did lots and lots of research and thinking...in other so called religions i belonged to..thats what lead me to the jws..

you know the exact same thing happened to me while i was in the thick of being a mormon,

this fog began clearing from my brain, as i kept questioning and defending their doctrine.

i too kept running into roadblocks in my ability to defend it.

as i said before im bound to talk in a way thats in line with my beliefs.

you believe in the trinity- i dont..you believe we go to heaven when we die - i dont.

you believe blood is ok - i dont..

its obvious i'm not going to talk as a catholic...because thats not the doctrine i follow.

i'm sorry if you find me robotic and not very passionate..

but you're wrong on that & i'm very passionate about what i believe..and yes i'll defend it.

the same as you all defend what you believe here.

but when others say what they believe..nobody bats an eyelid..but when i do well thats it..

in for the kill..

starbird x x x

It's logic, my dear. Jesus (and the apostles) all say that the law is done away with - this is merely ONE example - Jesus is clearly saying that it's not what a person eats that matters - it's what's in his heart. If Jesus doesn't give a whit about what people eat, then why does the JW church?

NOT WHAT ENTERS INTO HIS MOUTH DEFILES A MAN..... If you're going to equate a blood transfusion with "eating blood", then here is only one of many verses where Jesus says that what a person "eats" is not important.

Sounds like the JW's are teaching their own legalism and "doctrines of man" while lying and twisting scripture to make people believe that it's a command of God - you posted it right there in black & white:

This is the exact same example used on the JW sites -

Furthermore, your scriptural proof is from the wrong administration:

According to YOUR religion - WE ARE NOT UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW TODAY. The Bible tells us this in no uncertain terms (See Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 2:15).

The verses you use concerning blood, when looked at in context is only in reference to butchering an animal for food.

You already violate that which you preach to be wrong

It is a scientific fact that blood cannot be completely removed from any living thing that is used for food. Virtually everyone that eats meat or its by-products has "eaten" a large amount of blood during their lifetime. This means that virtually every Watchtower Society members -- unless they are strict vegetarians -- has consumed a large quantity of animal blood during their lifetime.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion, then - why even bother bringing it up?

Actually, all things on this doctrine are NOT religious. Just look around - it's actually not the case.

It's John 6:53-ff, sorry about that.

That's exactly what your church is doing. They can not prove from the Bible that a blood transfusion is evil. It takes great leaps of logic and denial of common sense to come to the conclusion that they have about blood.

This is why they've already changed their stance many times. They can not back it up under scrutiny.

Mark 7:15

There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Nothing entering into a man (through his mouth nor through his veins) can defile him. Why is that so hard to understand? Is Jesus a liar? Do you just "ignore" verses like this because they don't support your argument?

1Cr 10:23

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

According to this, accepting a blood transfusion to stay alive would be not only lawful, but expedient.... and, like Bramble's case, edifying indeed.

1Cr 10:27

If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

So, this is wrong? Let's just ignore this verse because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe?

1Cr 10:29

Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?

Who the heck is the JW board of "right reverend so & so's" to tell anyone what to do with their lives and own personal healthcare?

Romans 14:3-ff (some excerpted)

For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Clearly, we are no longer under the law. Clearly, we are able (and expected) to eat and drink as we so choose. Clearly, it's not what we eat that will be judged. Clearly, we are not to judge one another.

Romans 14:14

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.

How many verses FOR THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION do you need in order to contradict the handfull of MOSAIC LAW verses?

edited because of formatting

mark 7:15 dosnt say mouth and viens....

you are saying that the blood thing is just old mosaic law and all these scriptures here

say its ok basically to do all the things that were once wrong..

"for the holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you

EXCEPT THESE NECESSARY THINGS to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols

AND from blood....{acts 15:28,29}

so here the early christians did view this issue as still important.

john 6:53. are you saying you litrally drink jesus's blood...and eat his flesh.

do you think that jesus meant this litrally...

"as they continued eating jesus took a loaf and after saying a blessing he broke

it and giving it to the disciples, he said "take eat this means my body

also he took a cup and having given thanks he gave it to them saying drink out of it

all you for this means my blood of the covenant which is to be poured out in behalf of

many for forgivness of sins" {matthew 26:26-28}

romans 14:3 says not to judge what another person eats/drinks i certainly dont judge what you

or anyone chooses to eat or drink..that is your choice..you should not judge me and others what we choose not to eat/drink either.

read a little further romans 14:11,12 for it is written: as i live says jehovah to me every knee

will bend down and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to god. so then each

one of us will render an account for himself to god.

romans 14:14: only where a man considers something to be defiled to him is defiled.

it wasnt man that decided that blood was wrong to eat or drink it was god that

decided that.so here i dont think they were necessarily talking about blood.

starbird x x x

Star, I didnt say the JWs were growing smaller, I said the World Empire of False Religion. Babylon.

The JWs indeed grow.

But not as fast as the Mormons of the general Pentecost movement.

So if organizational growth is an indicator of divine blessing and approval (Which for your church leadership, it is)

then those two movements are more blessed than the JWs arent they.

JWs being as obsessed as they are with Organizational expansion and numerical increase.

sorry i misunderstood what you were saying...i thought you meant jws were not growing..

i dont see organizational growth as an indicator of divine approval..

i was just pointing out that they are increasing...

starbird x x x

Star. I think a thread discussing the validity of the JW key doctrine belief that they are the only church fullfilling Matthew 24v14, and therefore are Gods Organization on earth, is in order.

See what scriptural arguements the Way people have to either agree or disagree with that belief.

They know their scripture you must admit!

combination please can you clarify

starbird x x x

what's a gorp?

to gorp...... means to look at :)

starbird x x x

an answer to something you've already decided on

or an actual inquiry

or do just want to see what others say

or..................

bit of both :)

Then, address these points that you ignored earlier. Is it maybe too much at one time for you? Maybe we should just post one question or one point at a time?

belle you really must keep up dear

the blood thing: i have already answered the question how i see blood transfusions as bad as

eating /drinking it. on my original thread.

here it is again just for you..

if something is bad for you its bad for you..

if a doctor said that to eat a certain thing was bad for you do you think he would think it

safe if it was given to you intravieniously...

e.g

heroin is bad for you we all know that right

its like saying to an heroin addict its bad for you to snort heroin,

but if you inject it its ok it wont be bad for you then.

if something is bad for you its bad for you no matter how it gets there.

the blood thing must be important to god for him to keep warning about it.

the reason i bought up dna was just to show how our blood is unique to us. thats all.

heres that bit again..

you and i may have the same blood group/type..

but our blood is different because of the dna..it was just to say our blood is unique to each of us

thats all.

i dont think i can contribute to a post more than anyone else.

doctrine- a principle or belief; a teaching of a person school or church..

and seeing that all things on this doctrine forum are religious i'd presume...church..in this case.

john 5: only goes up to 47...so which john do you mean?

i dont see what matthew 15:11 has to do with blood..

matthew 15:8 " this people honours me with their lips yet thier heart is far

removed from me. {9} it is in vien that they keep worshiping me, because they

teach commands of men as doctrines

{10}with that he called the crowd near and said to them listen and get a sense of it

{11}not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles

a man"

if your saying this means the blood...you're saying jesus contradicted his father..

jesus here was talking about traditions eg not washing hands before a meal {matt 15:2}

read the whole conversation belle from matthew 15:1 to matthew 15:11

starbird