starbird

afraid so belle. it explains everything about satan.

but please dont think i'm being oughty about it.

without the bible who'd know about satan.. with whats happening today.

to me its as plain as the nose on your face. because i believe in the bible, thats what i go by.

i dont go by mans theories.

starbird x x x

the bible clearly states where he came from..

but i do believe he's in charge of those religious and political leaders.

when you think about it from his point of view, what better place for him to be.

there he can do his worst, you only have to look at todays political and religious

system to see whats happening.

more than ever its in turmoil. and i bet he's lovin it..

love starbird x x x

hi belle and thanks:

im not here to pass judgement on anyone i'm not worthy to pass judgement.

i've already learnt what i need to learn. from the bible.

i am here to dicuss, thats what we're doing now isnt it?

as i've already said its not my opinion i'm giving, its gods, everything i say can be found

in the bible.

difference in opinion is what makes these boards interesting. therefore a disscusion starts.

religion is an interest of mine, but not my only interest.

love starbird x x x

believing that satan exists does not mean accepting the idea that he has horns, a pointed tail, and a pitchfork and that he roasts people in a firery hell. the bible gives no such description of satan.

that is the product of the minds of medieval artists who were influenced by representations of the

mythological greek god pan.

instead of teaching a firey hell, the bible clearly states that

"the dead are conscious of nothing at all" {eccl.9:5}

so where did he come from?

all gods works are perfect; he is not the author of un-righteousness; so he did not create anyone

wicked. {deut.32:4; ps. 5:4}

the one who became satan was originally a perfect spirit son of god. when saying that the devil

"did not stand fast in the truth," jesus indicated that at one time that one was "in the truth" {john 8:44}

but as is true of all gods intelligent creatures, this spirit son was endowed with free will.

he abused his freedom of choice, allowed feelings of self importance to develop in his heart,

began to crave the worship that belonged only to god, and so enticed adam and eve to listen to

him rather than obey god. thus by his course of action he made himself satan, which means

"adversary".

"and a war broke out in heaven: michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but did not prevail, niether was a place found for them any longer in heaven.

so down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent the one called devil and satan

who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him. and i heard a loud voice in heaven say:

now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night

before our god.{revelation.12:7-10}

"woe for the earth and for the sea because the devil has come down to you having great anger,

knowing he has a short period of time" {rev.12:12}

starbird x x x

the bible is the word of god in it there are outlined guides for us to follow.

even hygiene.

its not my opinion, its gods. thats all there is to it.

"i jehovah, am your god, the one teaching you to benefit yourself, the one causing you

to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would pay attention to my commanments!

then your peace would become just like a river and your righteousness like the waves of the sea"

{isaiah.48:17,18}

"all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight

for disciplining in righteousness" {2 timothy.3:16}

"trust in jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. in all your ways

take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths staight" {proverbs.3:5,6}

i stand by my original post.

starbird x x x

There is that little problem of omniscience.

If God knew that his actions before Genisis 1:1 were going to cause so much suffering, is he responsible for it?

If I leave the doors under the sink unlocked, where all the cleaning fluids are kept, and my toddler gets in there and drinks it, am I responsible?

good question...

my original post on this subject explains about who is to blame..

its that question that people ask.."why didnt god destroy satan staight away..

and start again..

his soveriegnty had been questioned. satan suggested that people would only follow

god if there was something in it for them..

so god had to let it run to prove if you like that people would choose to follow him

{choice}

satan knows that in the end god wins.

any suffering people have endured will be rewarded.

"but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved" {matthew.24:13}

starbirdxx

Bird - Maybe it would help if I would explain what's going on here. GreaseSpot Cafe forums are mostly populated with people who spent many years as followers of The Way International, commonly called TWI. For more info on what TWI is, Wikipedia has a pretty good page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_International

Most of us consider much of our time and money spent with TWI as wasted or worse. Many believe (as do I) that they suffered mild to severe emotional damage. Some of us found other ways to be Christians. Others of us choose not to believe or to simply say that "I don't know". We all try to respect each other's opinions. Most of us have read the Bible cover to cover at least once and the New Testiment several time and can quote scripture with the best. What I'm trying to say is that a simplistic message of going back to God or the need of being with God really doesn't say much to us. The people here that walk with God have probably been doing it for 20+ years. And the people that don't relate to walking with God probably gave it a real good shot.

So stick around, tell us about yourself, and enjoy the company. But also know that our beliefs or lack thereof have been forged with the fire of time and pain.

hi jim.. i understand what your saying..one of my interests is religion, as you can probebly tell.

i believe in one god one faith...

i dont believe all roads lead to god..

perhaps some are or have been on the wrong road..

i find it a shame when because of bad experience some turn away completely from

god/religion....

i've been/looked into most faiths and became very disapointed with religion,

so i kept on searching..

i dont wish to offend anyone, when talking about my beliefs, difference in opinion

is what makes these boards interesting..

love starbirdxx

hi waysider thanks

hi danny thanks

starbirdxx

oh perleeze

Cause, no.

Allow, Yes.

Case in point, Most everyone.....................ok, ALL the apostles of Jesus Christ suffered one way or another, even when ''moved by the holy spirit'' to write the scriptures. Just look at Paul.

I haven't been through one quarter of the suffering they went through. God didn't cause it, but He also didn't get him out of it either.

WHY?

Simon ''suffered'' when Jesus was obedient to the cross, by having to ''carry'' the cross for him.

Was that from God? It was from man, but, I believe whenever we are obedient to God, it may cause some suffering in others.

IMHO :)

why do you think by being obedient to god, it would cause suffering to others?

starbirdxx

Perhaps in your life and from your viewpoint. No everyone shares that opinion.

Why? Because they won't be blessed by God? Because they won't have eternal life? I really don't know how to answer you. I can say that I live far better and happier now than I did when I was in TWI. If belief in God works for you and makes you happy then by all means continue on. But please don't assume that all people who live independent of God are evil and unhappy. You could probably say that I'm one of those individuals that lives apart from God. I am generally quite happy with life, my family, and my friends. Furthermore, I doubt that you could find a single person that would describe me as evil.

Yawn. The reality is that society in general is healther and lives in greater abundance than it ever has. So much abundance that obesity is a bigger problem amongst the poor than the affluent in the US and England. Virtually everyone in the US can find a way to get a college education. I could list other examples, but I doubt I could convince you.

Now you're talking. I do have a problem with people starting wars and killing others in the name of God. And I do have a problem with people lying, cheating and stealing and then simply asking God to forgive them and continuing with their evil ways. On the other hand, getting everyone to believe in the same God and the same moral code won't work either. People must be given the freedom to believe or not believe.

i've never been part of TWI i'd never heard of it before today.

i havent said you were evil, because you live apart from god.

whats obesity got to do with living independant to god..

obesity is probebly a bigger problem with the poor because the food they eat is cheap & crap.

starbirdx

So there are some people who do see themselves as independent from God. ..... What's it to you?

That there are those who do this is an offense to you? ... Ticks you off? ... Gets you righteously indignant? ..... Get over yourself.

There is a helluva lot more to 'the state of governments and humankind' than people simply deciding to 'live independent from God'. Hell, in the past 2-300 years, when people stared daring to question what they were taught as 'God's Laws' via science, philosophy, democracy, etc., there were those in ecclesiastical authority who whined about those people becoming 'independent of God' too.

... and as a result of such questioning and independence, science and medicine has flourished, countries with representative forms of government (like our country) abounded, and real progress was made, ... even given the corruption that kept up with it.

I don't know about you, but I like that kind of independence, thank you very much!

it dosnt offend me if people choose to live independant from god. and its nothing to me.

i beleive in the bible and thats what the bible teaches thats all.

and i'm far from self-righteous beleive me.

i didnt mean to offend you with my comments..

starbirdx

hi and thanks

the bible tells us not.

"when under trial, let no one say:i am being tried by god. for the evil things god cannot be tried

nor does he himself try anyone{james.1:13}

to remain in gods favour, adam and eve would have to refrain from eating from "the tree of

the knowledge of good and bad. {genesis 2:16,17} if they had obeyed gods law there would

have been no suffering to mar human life. by obeying gods command they would have

demonstrated their love for god and their loyalty to him.

urged by satan, eve ate the fruit from that tree. later, adam also partook of the forbidden fruit.

satan was attacking gods position as the most high. by saying "you positively will not die"

the devil had contradicted gods words "you positively WILL die"

satan further implied that god was keeping adam and eve ignorant of the possibility

of becoming like god. satans challenge therefore brought into question the right and validity

of gods position as universal sovereign.{genesis.2:17; 3:1-6}

satan charged that no man would voluntarily remain loyal to god. this malicious claim by satan

is clearly revealed in the bibles account of job a faithfull servant of god, who underwent a great

test sometime before 1600 b.c.e.

since satan is ruler of this world {1st john.5:19} he and those on his side are responsible

for the present condition of human society and all the misery that mankind has suffered.

no one can rightly say that god is the cause of such hardship as "god is love"{1st john.4:8}

starbirdxx

my point is, man was never meant to live independant to god.

thats the whole point to everything.

if people choose to live away from god in one way or another it will be their

downfall..

that goes back to adam & eve..they chose to live independant from god

and we all know the rest.

today governments and alike live independant from god, and look at the state we're

in..

you cant say you believe in god and see jesus as your savior, and on the other hand

fight in wars, be involved with corrupt governments or encourage those governments.

starbird