starbird

Even you, Starbird, who believes and lives by this 'law' has to tip toe around it. You bring up a few cases to show how this law benefits humans...but you just can't come out and say it, can you.

Because it is stark and hard and cruel.

A person is better off DEAD than to take a blood transfusion. This is what your God Wants.

So, my husband and family would somehow be better off by following this law? Hmmpf.

So wrestle your mind around to accept it, folks. It is how to please God. Just obey. On judgement day, you'll get the benefit...

i'm not tip toeing round anything you said your husband would be dead without having blood.

my friends sister would be alive if she hadnt had blood.

starbird

To follow up on what dmiller said, the doctrinal section is basically a place to debate beliefs. If you throw something onto the pile, it's more or less understood that it will be questioned and critiqued.

The expectation is that ideas and beliefs will be discussed, explained, and that we will learn from each other. Your method so far has been to post some bible verses, and when questioned to reply that it's not your opinion, it's God's. This isn't a place where you can expect to answer "Just because.." and not get jumped! For that matter, cranking out bible verses doesn't always cut it either.

Not only does everyone not agree on what specific verses mean, but some of us aren't Christian and don't accept the bible as a definitive source of truth. The doctrinal regulars are a tougher crowd than the rest of the forums.

Maybe you just need to get the feel of the place a little better.

so if you're not christian or you dont believe in the bible why you on a doctrine forum.?

belle i am engaging in discussion with you i dont know how you want

me to be.

i'm not just repeating things that have been put into my head

i have a belief system so its obvious i'm going to discuss in a way thats

in line with that. the same way you have certain beliefs you discuss in line with what you

believe.

i'm not going to pretend to believe in something else just to make friends.

if you say to me

"i believe jesus is god" {just for example}

i dont believe that so i'm obviously going to disagree with you.

and say what i believe..

i give scriptures to show why i believe in certain things the same way as others do.

starbird x x x

what do you think?

do we all go to heaven when we die?

or sleep in death till the resurrection?

starbird x x x

erm bramble its not my law..i didnt command it...

you obviously love your husband dearly...how can i say to you that you would be better off

without him..

i can only give you what i know...

these are my beliefs.....you believe in blood transfusions...i dont.

if my friends sister hadnt had a blood transfusion...she would be here today,

being a loving wife and doting mother..

i'm not judge and jury..at the end of the day we've all got to be judged for our lives

and whos to say how we will be judged and what for..

all i know is what god commands, and i try to live by that..

starbird x x x

ok :)

please dont patronize me roy

i gave those figures in answer to a previous reply.

you sent me a private message roy saying you dont have anything against

jehovahs witnesses then promptly went over to an ex jehovahs witness site

and wrote a post:

jw witnessing to ex way members about blood issue:

telling people to come over and have a good laugh and a gorp basically.

nice...

starbird x x x

Haven't figured out how to answer my question, have you? Just how would my husband and family have been better off if he had bled out on the operating table, as Your God Wills?

Why would your God want a young man dead rather than to accept a blood transfusion? What is so bad about a blood transfusion? Because some people get illnesses from tainted blood? Some people don't. Plus, he was dying!

Some health care workers get ill from contactrwith infectious patients--say an accidental blood stick. Maybe they should quit working in health care?

It is just easier to ignore the inconvenient facts.

Just another cruel hoop for people to jump through to prove themselves to some legalistic group and diety, IMO.

hi bramble,

whos to say that he would not have been saved if they had used the other products mentioned

{plasma volume expanders} mentioned earlier on

these have been used time and time again with excellent results.

not only on jehovahs witnesses but others who refuse blood..

years ago people didnt realise alot of the risks that went along with blood transfusions.

now of course we understand about the diseases that are carried in the blood.

i have a friend whos sister {before she became a jehovahs witness} had a blood transfusion

after a few years she was very poorly it turned out she had contracted CJD through the blood

transfusion..she died a horrible death..its a form of mad cows disease. her brain went to mush

basically..she was only 42 and a mother of 3.

its like a game of russian roulette.

it is a fact that more and more surgeons are more than happy and understanding these days

about operating on patients without blood.

and most would agree about the dangers that comes with blood.

starbird x x x

Just because she HAS friends (here) and you don't is no reason to be a'hatin'.

i'm not hatin anybody...

i have spoke for myself here...

oh and i aint selling anything.. this is the doctrine forum.... right...

oh so i can discuss everyone elses doctrines....but not the ones i believe in...oh ..ok

starbird

In JW speak, the world empire of False Religion "fell" in 1918 and has been shrinking ever since.

Which of course doesnt explain the expansion of Mormonism or especially Pentecostalism since that date.

And the foretold destruction of False Religion at the hands of the United Nations is.....well....nowhere in sight.

you think the witnesses are growing smaller?

year report for 2006.

number of congregations {worldwide}....99,770.

2006 memorial attendance {worldwide}...16,675,113.

average weekly bible studies {worldwide}...6,286,618.

number baptized 2006 {worldwide}...248,327.

increase since 2005 {worldwide}...1.6%

since 1926 tws have published more than 141 million copies of the bible

in 58 languages.

what does the bible really teach...{used as home study book}

more than 52 million copies produced in 158 languages since its release in 2005.

starbird x x x

In JW speak, the world empire of False Religion "fell" in 1918 and has been shrinking ever since.

Which of course doesnt explain the expansion of Mormonism or especially Pentecostalism since that date.

And the foretold destruction of False Religion at the hands of the United Nations is.....well....nowhere in sight.

no where in sight what world you living in .....

dont you watch the news......different religions are being attacked left right and centre

especially muslims..

starbird x x x

I missed it, too. Can you please show me where you've participated in the discussion - not where you've merely repeated what you heard and not where you've merely posted a link.

AND, AGAIN - That link is NOT an EX JW site.

AND, AGAIN - you still haven't answered the very simple "yes" or "no" question.

someone put a link for the tower watch site that is a ex jw site..

how have i just repeated what i've heard ..its my belief...

obviously i'm going to write in a way thats in line with my belief.

i'm not going to write in a way thats not my belief am i.

i posted a link because the moderater told me not to quote things that may be copyright

but to put a link there...ok..my.. you have gone cocky since your friend showed up..

starbird

unacceptable to christians:

whole blood:

plasma:

your own personal decision:...in these matters "each one will carry his own load" of responsability

{gal. 6:4,5}

blood fractions are elements from blood that are extracted through a process called frationation.

e.g plasma, one of the four major componants of blood, can be divided into the following

substances: water, about 91%; protiens, such as albumins, globumins and fibrinogen,

about 7%; and other substances, such as nutrients, hormones, gases, vitamins,

waste products, and electrolytes, about 1.5%

it cannot be said whether fractions are covered by the command to abstain from blood.

the bible does not give specific direction on the subject of fractions..many fractions are derived

from blood that has been donated for medical purposes.. it is up to each christian to make

a conscientious decision if they will decide to accept or reject the medical uses of these

substances.

albumin - up to 4% of plasma

a protein exracted from plasma. types of albumin are also found in plants, in foods such as

milk eggs and milk of a nursing mother.

albumin from blood is sometimes used in volume expanders to treat shock and severe

burns.

immunoglobulins - up to 3% plasma.

protein fractions that may be used to fight viruses and diseases, such as diptheria

clotting factors less than 1% of plasma there are certain kinds of proteins that help the blood clot in order to stop bleeding...some clooting factors are now made from non blood sources.

plasmapheresis..treats illness

blood is withdrawn and filtered to remove plasma. a plasma substitute is added and the

blood returned to the patient..some doctors may use the plasma from another person to replace

that from the patients blood this option would be unacceptable to a christian.

so the long and short of it is whole blood from another person is unacceptable

some other componants extracted from blood {ie non blood products}

that is up to the individual person..and their concsience..

oh belle the link you gave me about jw blood reform group..sorry but no jws involved in that

because the blood issue in their eyes dosnt need to be reformed as you can see

they are already aware of the facts..about blood..

starbird x x x

Are you counting time trying to convert these people to the JW's?I can tell you it won't work your wasting your time.These people already know what it's like being in a cult they don't need or want another one.

Why don't you try talking instead of linking back the the bOrg information.Try telling them why you believe what you do.

Also ask your elders if it's ok for you to be posting on a web site filled with born again Christans.And a few EX JW's.

oh i have been talking you must of missed that...

i only linked to the ORG because someone put an ex jw link on

i'm not trying to convert anyone...not at all...

i believe what i do because i have been deeply involved wth other so called truths

to my dismay.. then found the real truth...

starbird

this is not an ex jw site...

so instead of giving links to other anti/ex jehovahs witness sites for information on

blood get it from the horses mouth..so to speak

jws and the blood issue

starbird x x x

i have two close friends one a jehovahs witness the other not,both had major operations

both refused to have blood.

my jehovahs witness friend is 75 yrs old she had major surgary, and the surgeon

was more than happy to operate on her. she was told she could loose alot of blood.

after the operation the surgeon came to her with a small medicine tot

he showed her how much blood she had lost 20ml..

my other friend who is not a jw had major heart surgery without blood.

that too was a success.

as i said you take your chance & i'll take mine.

"trust in jehovah with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding" {pro 3:5}

starbird x x x

God first

Beloved starbird and everybody elst that is part of this tread

God loves us all

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Ok all I read this verse - we are not to eat the blood of everything that has life

did you know that even plants have blood that flow in them?

Another question comes to mind - Why did God tell us not to eat the blood?

I would say there was a reason which was for our health.

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

the word abstain means refrain or try not to

others wise do your best not come near these things but that does not mean its wrong to come close to these things

with God its the heart of things

other wise receiving blood to save your life is not a sin

Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

again we are talking about eating blood not handing it in other ways

but this does not say the person can not be forgiven or cleaned and then welcome back with his people

Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof:

If the life of the soul is in the soul and by science we know that blood is oxgen and a form of water

so do we stray away from oxgen in the air too - breath life too

will this is what I think right now

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

oh perleeze

did god tell us to abstain from plants..... no.

starbird x x x

What about suicide, Starbird? Is suicide also wrong? Isn't it wrong to refuse a blood transfusion that could save your life?

it is not suicide to refuse blood... rather the opposite.

suicide to accept blood.

it is a command from god to abstain from blood..

you take your chance on that & i'll take mine.

starbird x x x

belle sorry but i've checked what you said about jws now being able

to accept certain blood componants, its wrong i'm affraid

the jehovahs witnesses still do not accept blood transfusions.

and they will not change on that it is what god commanded,

abstain from blood.

the site that you had your link to was an ex jw site..

starbird x x x

How are you getting blood transfusions equate to eating blood? I don't see the logic there. :huh: The two are totally unrelated. On that point alone, your argument loses validity.

You're the one who brought up DNA and you use the fact that "your blood is unique to you" and contains DNA as a reason for not having a transfusion. But DNA is NOT in the blood used for transfusions.

So, why did you bring up DNA if it's not an important part of your position? On one hand you say that a blood transfusion does not change a person nor his DNA, but then you go on to say that your blood is unique to you because of DNA.

It seems like you're using the uniqueness of a person's DNA as a reason for not having a transfusion, but there is no DNA exchanged in a blood transfusion.

How do you explain John 5:53-56:

Are JW's dispensational? Is the OT not written "to us"? Or is that a moot point with the JW religion? I know for TWI doctrine, those verses in the OT are not "to us" so they aren't relevant as far as any practice goes. The tithe, however, is still relevant in TWI logic, but that's talking about giving money to the church, so of course that practice is still expected.

How do these additional verses fit with the argument against blood transfusions?

Mark 7:15

There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Matt 15:11

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

(Although, with a blood transfusion - one is not eating blood.)

Gal 5:18

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

"Back in the day" there were groups of people who believed that drinking blood would provide supernatural powers. This is idolatry and the primary reason the practice was forbidden. A blood transfusion to save life is not idolatry.

It is a scientific fact that blood cannot be completely removed from any living thing that is used for food. Virtually everyone that eats meat or its by-products has "eaten" a large amount of blood during their lifetime. This means that virtually every Watchtower Society members -- unless they are strict vegetarians -- has consumed a large quantity of animal blood during their lifetime.

Again, I'm glad that science is able to accommodate the laws of your religion, but I think your argument for avoiding blood transfusions is without merit.

oh come on belle..

you know when jesus said about drinking his blood it was symbolic..

as i said if a doctor told you by eating or drinking certain substances was

bad for you do you think he would recommend putting it in your veins.

jehovahs witnesses who avoid having transfusions isnt without merit

they follow the command to please jehovah..

as i thought all christians would do..

back then there were no blood transfusions but i bet if there had of been

it wouldnt have been acceptable for christians to have blood.

god back in the begining knew what would take place in the future

so if it was acceptable i think he would have said abstain from blood

except for medical purposes, but he didnt

he said to abstain from blood.

i think it better to be safe than sorry in following his laws.

starbird x x x

How many people here have noticed that this RELEVANT question

(it affects the stance of the poster dramatically)

has been dodged at least TWICE so far?

Does anyone else think that's an answer in itself?

As in "I refuse to confirm my beliefs because I'm not proud enough to

declare my beliefs. I'm ashamed of my associations and will not

speak of them. But you should agree with the doctrines I've gotten

FROM them."

I prefer not to jump to conclusions, but, in lieu of anything other than

a DUCKING of the question REPEATEDLY,

by golly, a refusal to answer is indicative of the answer....

i havent ducked that question...

i thought the answer was quite obvious..

does it really matter..

oh and i'm very proud of my beliefs thank you..

which i also thought was obvious..

starbird x x x

it wasnt me that said the soul is in the blood . god said that.

so it must be very important to him to keep saying it.

the general theme through the bible is that our blood is sacred.

if it wasnt a big deal, why then does he keep reminding us

to abstain from it.

if you're not allowed to eat it or drink it..how is it ok to

have it pumped into your veins?

god knows what is good or bad for us.

if a doctor told us not to drink something that was bad for us,

would it be ok to have that substance in our veins?

surely that substance is bad for us no matter how it gets into our body.

its like saying to an heroin addict, "dont snort heroin, its bad for you,

but its ok if you inject it"

either way we know heroin is bad for you which ever way it gets into

our system..

starbird x x x

where? Lev? naaaah that ain't what it's saying

You can't change soul or spirit with something you can see.

read a bit closer and understand and get wisdom

some folks should just use common sense and quit trying to make more rules from the bible

"the soul of the flesh is in the blood and i myself have put it upon the

alter for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that

makes atonement by the SOUL IN IT {lev 17:11,12}

"for the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood by the soul in it." {lev 17:14}

starbird x x x

click & read

blood

starbird x x x

i didnt say having blood would change your personality.

or your dna

the bible says the soul is in the blood.

and of course we now know your dna is in your blood.

your blood is unique to you.

as i said there are other things that can be used.

the bible says to abstain from blood..

saline solution, ringers solution, and dextran can be used as plasma

volume expanders, and these are readily available in hospitals.

actually the risks that go with the use of blood transfusions are avoided

by using these substances.

the canadian anaesthetists society journal {jan 1975, p, 12} says,

"the risks of blood transfusion are the advantages of plasma substitutes:

avoidance of bacterial or viral infection, transfusion reactions and

rh sensatization"

jehovahs witnesses have no objection to the use of non blood plasma expanders.

when there is severe blood loss, the greatest need is to restore the fluid volume,

our blood is over 50% water; then there are the red and white cells, and so forth

when alot of blood is lost, the body itself pours large reserves of blood cells into

the system and speeds up production of new ones.

but fluid volume is needed. plasma volume expanders can be used to fill this need.

starbird x x x