starbird

Medicine, as I said, is remarkable and it's awesome that people are able to live long, healthy lives today because of the advancements. If there are other options, then great, but when there aren't, I think blood transfusions are a far cry from the ingesting of blood - it's just not even close to being the same thing.

I've also given my own blood for surgery before. How does that factor in?

Millions of people are saved every year because of blood transfusions. Which is more humane and "Christ-like": to let people die when there's a perfectly safe, viable option or to save lives by intravenously adding to the existing blood supply in their body?

thousands of people also die or get diseases from having blood

people arnt just left to die because they refuse blood.

there are other options

if you read my link you will see

do you think that every jw that has a major operation dies as a result of

not having blood..

your blood is unique to you. i may have the same blood group as you

but our blood is not the same

e.g d.n.a

starbird x x x

so belle do you truely believe that the blood they use is

clean & safe.

it says to abstain from blood any blood

if its not ok to eat it surely its not ok to have a strangers blood running through

your veins.

the soul is in the blood...

as i said there are others things they can use in transfusions

that are safe and are used on a regular basis..

please click on

undefined

starbird x x x

why is it "nuts"

please tell..

starbird x x x

what the bible says about blood:

the bible tells us to abstain from blood:

"every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you.

as in the case of green vegitation, i do give it all to you.

only flesh with its soul - its blood -you must not eat" {gen 9:3,4}

"to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from

things strangled and from fornication. if you carefully keep yourselves from

these things you will prosper. good health to you" {acts 15:29}

does the bibles prohibition include human blood?

the early christians understood it that way. "keep abstaining from blood"

it does not say merely to abstain from animal blood.

"as for any man of the house of israel or some alien resident who is

residing in your midst who eats any sort of blood, i shall certainly set my face against

the soul that is eating the blood, and i shall indeed cut him off from among his people" {lev 17:10}

is a transfusion the same as eating blood?

in a hospital, when a patient cannot eat through his mouth he is fed intravenously.

so if we are to not eat blood is it acceptable to have it intravenously.

are we then not following the command to keep abstaining from blood?

all types of surgery can be performed successfully without blood transfusions.

this includes open heart surgery, brain surgery, amputations, and total removal of

cancerous organs.

if there is severe blood loss the greatest need is to restore the fluid volume,

plasma volume expanders that contain no blood can be used for that.

starbird x x x

thanks for the advice.

starbird x x x

Okay trinitarians, I agree that there are several places in the bible where Jesus is referred to as God (the verse in Hebrews and the statement by Thomas "My Lord and My God") and others where the implication is that he is God, or at least possesses qualities assumed to be God's exclusively. I also agree that unitarian, or at least Wierwille's, explanation of these verses is contrived to fit the unitarian position.

What verses, or at least sections of scripture, explain how God can exist as two or three "persons" with distinct wills and natures, how one "person" (the son) can be fully God and fully man, etc.

I know what trinitarians in general believe and how they explain it, but what does the bible say about it?

My opinion is that there are contradictions. Trinitarians explain away verses that indicate a disagreement in wills between the Father & the Son who are both supposedly God. Unitarians use craetive grammar to gloss over statements where Jesus is called God. But are there any clear verses that lay it all out?

"you heard that i said to you, iam going away and i am coming back to you.

if you loved me, you would rejoice that i am going my way to the father,

because the father is greater than i am" {john14:28}

"jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said "father, the hour has come;

glorify your son, that your son may glorify you" {john 17:1,3,5}

"a revelation by jesus christ, which god gave him" {rev 1:1}

"jesus said to them: if god were your father, you would love me, for from god

i came forth and am here, neither have i come on my own initiative at all

but that one sent me forth" {john 8:42}

"next the end when he hands over the kingdom to his god and father" {1corinthians 15:24}

"for he must rule as king till god has put all enemies under his feet" {1 corinthians 15:25}

starbird x x x

I thought that your post seemed like a Watchtower article...and sure enough:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/kn37/article_01.htm

yeh thats the fella..

starbird x x x

Oh Geeze.....

Starbird, are you trying to convert us? <_<

Do JW's promote lying and plagiarism?

no i'm not trying to convert you or anyone else..

its there for all to find...

starbird x x x

Thanks, starbird. That was an excellent synopsis of the bad fruit I, too, experienced in the Way. That's the false religion you're speaking of, right?

hi TheEvan.

i havnt ever been involved in the way, in fact i'd never heard of it till i came here

false religion is not one particular religion its a collective of religions

from what i know of the way i'd say they're part of that collective.

along with:

pentecostal

baptist

catholic

methodist

mormons

muslim

hindu

siekhs

any religion that lets pagan practices and false teachings interfere with pure worship of god.

starbird x x x

<copyrighted material removed>

starbird x x x

jesus declared...."it is jehovah your god you must worship,and it is

to him ALONE you must render sacred service" {matthew 4:10}

starbird x x x

Back up and look at the entire incident:

Matthew 12:22-32 NIV

22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I don't see the passage as emphasizing the Spirit as being greater – what strikes me about the account is that both parties were referring to what really drove out the demons. The Pharisees said it was Beelzebub – Jesus said it was the Spirit of God. I'm not sure what the unforgivable sin was or if it's something that one can commit in this age. Perhaps it's significant to note that one of Jesus' favorite ways to refer to Himself was as "The Son of Man" – which emphasized His humanity. He looked like everybody else. Maybe that's why speaking against the Son of Man – who appeared as a humble human – was understandably a less serious sin – one that was forgivable.

It seems the healing of this demon-possessed man was truly amazing because it states, "all the people were astonished." Judging by the crowd's reaction it was undeniable proof of the power of God and made them wonder if Jesus was indeed the Messiah – yet the Pharisees attributed it to Satan…The only comparison I see of who is greater than who – is that the Holy Spirit is stronger than Beelzebub…So perhaps – it was forgivable to speak against Jesus – who looked like an ordinary human – but to witness an undeniable proof of the power of Spirit of God – to see a miracle like this and yet speak against the Holy Spirit by denying who really did it – is unforgivable…Refusing to acknowledge the Spirit's work places one in a very precarious position – for it is the Spirit who bears witness to Christ [John 15:26] and who convicts the sinner [John 16:7-11].

Scripture clearly portrays the Son as subordinate to the Father – I don't see what the problem is. There is a passage where the Father does address the Son as God:

Hebrews 1:5-9 NIV

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son;

today I have become your Father"? Or again,

"I will be his Father,

and he will be my Son"?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him."

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds,

his servants flames of fire."

8 But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,

and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy."

he said O god....not my god

starbird x x x

thats fine darling...

most of my posts and replys have not been based on my own opinion,

i use the scriptures to prove a point..

and of course it is up to you to find for yourself the answers.

based on scriptural evidence..

love starbird x x x

simple answer potato baby....no..

jesus is gods son.

god is jesus's father

holy spirit is gods active force..

love starbird x x x

"every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against

the spirit will not be forgiven.

and whoever says a word against the son of man will be forgiven;

but whoever speaks against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age

or in the age to come" {matthew. 12:31,32}

if the holy spirit were a person and were god, this text would flatly contradict

the trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the holy spirit was greater

than the son. instead, what jesus said shows that the father, to whom the "spirit" belonged

is greater than jesus the son of man.

"jesus said to her {mary magdelene} do not hold me, for i have not yet ascended to my father;

but go to my brethren and say to them, i am ascending to my father and your father,to

MY GOD and your god" {john.20:17}

so to the resurrected jesus, the father was god, just as the father was god to mary magdelene.

interestingly, not once in the scriptures can you find the father addressing the son as "my god"

starbird x x x

jesus is not god he is the son...

when jesus was being baptized god said this is my son the beloved whom

i have approved.

your saying god is wrong?

also didnt god say that know one sees him and lives..

they all work together but are seperate...

starbird x x x

Oakspear,

Not to be to blunt, but what are you talking about?

I think you are mischaracterizing the doctrine of the trinity... let me try to briefly summarize it. (Other trinitarians can speak up if they disagree with my summarizings....

1. There is One and only one God.

2. The Bible shows clearly that Jesus is God, The Father is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God.

3. These three characters (Jesus, the Father, and the HS) are distinct in will but one in essense.

are you saying that jesus is god???????

"concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens

NOR THE SON, but only the father." {matt.24:36}

if they were both the same jesus would've known the day and the hour.

starbird x x x

If the bible's so uncomplicated, why do we have thousands of denominations?

[/quote

"one faith...one god"

accurate knowledge - a protection:

doing gods will requires an accurate knowledge of both god and jesus christ.

such knowledge leads to everlasting life. surely then, all of us will want to take

seriously the matter of gaining accurate knowledge from gods word the bible.

the bible encourages us to increase in the knowledge of god and his purposes.

{ephesians 4:13} {philippians 1:9} {colossians 1:9}

such knowledge is a protection against contamination of our worship. the apostle

paul spoke of a certain spirit creature who pretends to be an "angel of light"

{2 corinthians 11:14} thus disguised this spirit creature - satan - tries to mislead

us into doing things contrary to gods will. other spirit creatures associated with satan

have also been polluting peoples worship for paul said: "the things which the nations

sacrifice they sacrifice to demons not to god" {1 corinthians 10:20}

likely many have thought they were worshiping in the right way, although they

were not doing what god wanted. they were being mislead into unclean false worship.

these enemys of god {satan & his demons} have definately been polluting mankinds

worship.

unless we are careful we may do something un-acceptable to god. e.g the apostle

john fell at the feet of an angel "to worship him" but the angel warned: be careful!

do not do that! all i am is a fellow slave of you and your brothers who have the work

of witnessing to jesus. worship god.{rev 19:10}

do you therefore see the need to make sure that your worship is not contaminted

by any kind of idolatry? {1 corinthians 10:14}

starbird x x x

God first

Beloved starbird

God loves you my dear friend

I guess you are talking to be

While I do not want to fight about it but I just wanted to point out a few things

1. Its not were in a set of books called the bible but were in the word of God

2. were do you say he came from

3. were does the bible say the devil was not created as flesh or any other part of the bible

4. were does it say satan was even a person whether spirit or flesh

yes "flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven" but which heaven

while we go into outer space which is in the heaven just not the part spirit is in

while the bible is the word of God its not all the word of God because there is more

I told you were the devil was created

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

the word great is in Strong's Dictory H1419. gadowl, gaw-dole'; or (short.) gadol, gaw-dole'; from H1431; great (in any sense); hence older; also insolent:-- + aloud, elder (-est), + exceeding (-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing, -er, -ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, X sore, (X) very.

so this great whales were mighty than other animals, more noble than other animals and higher than other animals

now the word whales in Strong's Dictory H8577. tanniyn, tan-neen'; or tanniym (Ezek. 29 : 3), tan-neem'; intens. from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal:--dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.

so these animals are land monsters, sea-serpents, dragons and other things

Exo 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.

this word serpert is the same animal in Gen 1:21

Deu 22:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

dragons is the same hebrew word or the same animal in Gen 1:21

Psa 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.

dragons is the same hebrew word or the same animal in Gen 1:21

Psa 74:13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.

dragons is the same hebrew word or the same animal in Gen 1:21

Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

dragons is the same hebrew word or the same animal in Gen 1:21

Psa 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

dragons is the same hebrew word or the same animal in Gen 1:21

Isa 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

dragons is the same hebrew word or the same animal in Gen 1:21

and it goes on and on if you want to search under the Hebrew word Strong's Dictory H8577. tanniyn, tan-neen

Lucifer is here

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

oh perleeze.

why do you have to make things so complicated, the bibles really not that complicated.

love starbird x x x

what are some of the outstanding bible prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled?

"whenever it is that they are saying: peace and security! then sudden destrution

is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman;

and they will by no means escape" {thess.5:3}

"the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make

her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely

burn her with fire" {rev.17:16}

"the kingdom {set up by god}....will crush and put an end to all these {human}

kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinate" {daniel.2:44}

"i shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known

before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that i am jehovah" {ezek.38:23}

"and i saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain

in his hand. and he seized the dragon, the original serpant, who is the devil and satan,

and bound him for a thousand years. and hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed

it over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore untill the thousand years

were ended. after these things he must be let loose for a little while" {rev.20:1-3}

"do not marval at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs

will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those

who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement" {john.5:28,29}

"i heard a loud voice from the throne say: look! the tent of god is with mankind,

and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. and god himself will be with

them and he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more,

neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. the former things have passed

away" {rev.21:3,4}

"next the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his god and father...but when all

things will have been subjected to him, then the son himself will also subject himself

to the one who subjected all things to him, that god may be all things to everyone"

{1 cor.15:24-28}

"man must not live, on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through

gods mouth" {matt.4:4}

that includes his grand prophetic promises.

starbird x x x

Here's part of the entry for Lucifer in Wikipedia. Do with it what you will.

In the Vulgate, an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin by Jerome, Lucifer occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar." Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.

Hope this helps.

thanks for looking this up.

starbird x x x

niether the word trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the new testament,

nor did jesus and his followers intend to contradict the shema in the old testament:

"hear o israel: the lord our god is one lord {deut.6:4}

the doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies..

by the end of the 4th century..the doctrine of the trinity took substantially the form

it has maintained ever since..

christianity derived from judaism and judaism was strictly unitarian{believing that god is one person}

"going a little further he {jesus} fell on his face and prayed, my father, if it is possible, let

this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as i will, but as thou wilt" {matthew26:39}

if the father and the son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been

meaningless. jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity

have been the fathers will.

{jesus answered the jewish pharisees} in your law it is written that the testimony of two men

is true; i bear witness to myself, and the father who sent me bears witness to me"{john 8:17,18}

so jesus definately spoke of himself as being an individual seperate and distinct from

the father.

starbird x x x

I totally get the biblical story about how Lucifer became "the devil". But, it's not like this happened & God said, "Oh crap, wish I'd seen that coming".

can you please tell me where in the bible that it mentions the name lucifer.

love starbird x x x

i know where he came from.

satan was not created in flesh please tell where it says that in the bible

satan was a spirit person in heaven

"flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven"

the bible is the word of god.

starbird x x x

You are standing at the door, fumbling with your keys. It is cold and dark and your eager to get

inside - but the key does not work. it looks right, yet the lock will not budge. you look at your keys

again, are you using the right one? has someone damaged the key?

that is a fair picture of what this worlds religious confusion has done with the knowledge of god.

in affect many have tampered with the key that opens it up to our understanding - jesus christ.

some religions have removed the key , ignoring jesus altogether. others have distorted jesus' role

worshiping him as almighty god. in any case, the knowledge of god is closed to us without an

accurate understanding of this principal figure, jesus christ.

"this means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true god, and the one

you sent forth, jesus christ" {john 17:3}

starbird x x x