Tzaia

I wonder, what is the current state of the crisis? Anybody get newsletters or anything?

Main website is seriously out of date. It's March and no first quarter magazine. "Network" newsletter - none since last May.

No BOD annual meeting minutes for this year.

Biblical Unitarian site - new design

Truth or Tradition site - same one I did in 2002-2003

I knew JS well. Very well. I spent a lot of time with the guy. He went back and forth between clueless and arrogant. It was cute for a while - the clueless part. Both grate on the nerves if no steps are taken to correct deficiencies. The problem is that JS doesn't perceive any personal deficiency beyond the occasional need to lose a few pounds or get a haircut. He didn't screw around in the TWI years - he was too socially inept. He still was the last time I talked or saw him. Appallingly so.

When it comes to the Bible, he is always right. He is so sure he is right that he rewrote the NT to fit his theology. That's the only way he could get "it is written" to agree with what he thinks it should have said. He reworded it, and called it new light. Gotta love it.

Seriously - the whole bunch needs to be b!tch-slapped.

Thomas - it certainly appears as though VPW could have borrowed from Viola. What else is new?

I attend a rather large church that has small groups. I choose not to become involved in a small group. For one thing, I have a limited amount of time and it would be one more thing on an already crowded plate. I have found that small group people tend to hang out with those in their small group, which I think stifles their growth and keeps them comfortable. They tend to pick and choose who will be in their group. I prefer to feel free to float around and get to know a lot of people, even if it is just beyond an acquaintance.

The other thing I have pointed out before is that home-church "movements" haven't been sustainable, historically, Nor do they continue to grow. They fizzle and die unless there are frequent large-corporate worship opportunities, and charismatic leadership. TWI used to cite the growth of the church in the first century, when the reality is that there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement remaining in the area where Paul preached - just as there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement started by VPW.

I love Ehrman's books. I read most of them after listening/watching all of his lecture series through TTC.

To the best of my recollection, JS did take some courses when he was in NC. Did he get a degree? I don't believe so. MG attended Earlham for at least 2 semesters to receive some sort of credentials, but he was fired. I don't know if he finished or what he is doing now. Nor do I care.

The major players who are gone still seem to have contact with some of what is left of the staff. How big of them.

Formal training in any normal seminary would pollute their thinking and they just don't get along with Anthony Buzzard anymore.

I think Schoenheit's got a youtube video that explains that in great detail - something about how the original Greek actually reads "one wife at a time".

Well isn't that convenient. He's done a rewrite of the NT to fit his doctrine and he specifically states that on the website.

One time, I pointed out that there are words printed on pages, but the real intent is communicated by the meanings behind the the Words. The prof slapped his forehead. He had been working on a knotty problem in canonization (studying doesn't end with the degree), and when I said that, he realized that the Christian canon doesn't really depend on the words on the page, but on the meanings behind the words. The idea that we canonize ideas, and not just words, gave him fresh insight to the problem he was working on.

Ideas can take on a life of their own and not necessarily the life that was intended by the author.

TZ, how is claiming the bible is full of unresolvable contradictions any less arrogant than claiming it has no contradictions? It is still placing our understanding above all else. No? Is it me, or doesn't it still seem like an extreme conclusion? Possibly even one that avoids another conclusion?

I guess it would be arrogant if I had actually said that, but I didn't. At least not that I'm aware of.:)

Steve - part of the reason why I brought this up was that TWI made out like other denominations were doing Christians (at the very least) a disservice by not acknowledging and addressing these "apparent contradictions" with "the truth"- that there are no contradictions, nor can there be - as that would cause "the whole word to fall apart". It took me a long time to realize what an arrogant (and ridiculous) presumption that was.

Five crucified, how many magi, how many times Peter denied Jesus, water baptism, and tongues were relatively harmless. Dispensations were a bit more harmful. What really harmed was the flat out rationalization of leadership authority (Order My Steps in Thy Word) and sexual sin. I believe that it all started with this "the word can't contradict itself and only TWI has unlocked the keys to understanding" nonsense.

Must God must be understood "perfectly" in order for us to appreciate his glory, glorify him, and act in a way that reflects his glory? I think that "perfect understanding = a perfect walk" just maybe isn't the necessity Twi made it out to be. Furthermore, TWI's and CES's obsession with jots and tiddles in order to achieve their idea of high truth was at the expense of grace and mercy.

The other part of the reason why I brought this up is that my church recently finished the process of dismissal from PCUSA over doctrinal issues. Our interim pastor has been working through a lot of issues, such as contradictions, through his weekly messages. I find the perspective to be fascinating and I'm really happy that I can listen with appreciation instead of listening in order to knock holes into everything he says.

Well when we were told that it either is the word of god or it falls apart...sheesh.

It IS a dance - so to speak - but one that TWI and certain offshoots could not come to terms.

hm, like someone has to be right

and the other wrong

both can be right and contradict

watch out when they cross ways and eyes open

a time for everything

and times a plenty

For example: God's sovereignty and man's free will. That - in and of itself - is a contradiction. Yet God is sovereign and we have free will.

TWI (and I know for certain that one offshoot) had a terrible time dealing with that one.

I, for one, am grateful that we can have these discussions - complete with disagreement - which is totally the point of why I said what I said. We can disagree.

Instead of saying that God is bigger than our understanding could ever possibly be in this life, we are were told that God can't contradict himself - and that any apparent contradictions have explanations - which led allowed them to misrepresent stuff that was certainly not contradictory (like adultery and fornication), make stuff up like God not spitting your way unless you were a 15% of gross giver, and many, many other things. Ultimately it led to a real unhealthy culture of shut the f' up and let someone else think for you.

is IMO the notion that the bible doesn't contradict itself. Really?

Well - since it's structured more like a corporation and less like a church entity, I'd say ordained by man. I don't get why STF bothers to ordain anyone at all.

I remember Mike when I was in rez in the 10th corps...at that time he seemed like a nice guy...

I have no idea about then. He apparently went off the deep end.

Someone PM'ed me about this and all I can say is that the lack of sound judgment and discernment is still high.

JAL renounced the so-called "Law of Believing" way back in 1987-88. That was one of the first things to go. Obviously, due to the circumstances of his exit from TWI, it had to. People need to remember that JAL's target audience is someone who is in TWI or who has left and still want to live the "glory days" of TWI (back when he was in and a golden boy). LoB might still be an issue to some. Maybe he feels a need to clearly state his position.

Up until he was shown the door, TWI (from his perspective) was the greatest thing since canned beer and sliced bread. He has spent the rest of his life so far trying to recreate that synergy (that, IMO, must have peaked about a year before I took PFAL).

Any word on why Mike Patten is no longer on the BOD at STF? He is not on staff, either. If I remember right, he was Dan(the man)'s right hand man.

One thing that bothers me is, as I alluded to a few days ago, if this was so heinous and so traumatic, how could these women stay with twi for 5-10 more years? Nobody really stuck a gun to their heads. Guilt? Mind control? What does that mean? Fear, self preservation? That would make more sense. But I think about what happened to these women and I wait for it to sink in. Surely, some moment in time it'll all hit me. I'll realize, HEY! You've been played! But that isn't happening. Why not?

I can't speak for them - none of that ever happened to me in TWI (however I saw things going on at the local level) - but my somewhat educated guess is that they wanted to believe that what they were doing was special and it made them feel special. Sexual abuse in children leads many of them to believe that sex is the only thing they can contribute to a "relationship" and in some sense of the word it is empowering. From what I can gather, leadership was well trained in being able to spot those who were vulnerable. Then there's the shame and guilt factor. So we've got people who think they are special because they are providing "spiritual comfort" to the MOGOTW - in a closed culture that flaunts its amorality to hide its imorality. I believe it took these ladies a LONG time to figure out what was really going on and just how wrong it really was and just how used they had been. It's a hard pill to swallow since many of them were complicit (strictly speaking, most of them were not forced).

VPW had a lot of people fooled. There were those, such as my husband, who would not believe it was possible for VPW to be the predator that he was. Then there were those who thought it was ok because of who they believed he was. Personally I believed he had it in him based on my brief encounters although I didn't know he actually did anything until after he died. I was never "sold out" after my encounters and not being very good at pretending to be caused me to be an outcast - so my experience in TWI then was very much like yours here is now - a lot of criticism for not going along.

My main gripe is not that they stayed. My gripe (as it is) is that they have continued (in a sense) to let him have his way with them even from the grave. They continue to define themselves by this experience thereby giving it far more power and influence in their lives than it deserves.

I left TWI in 1987 and spent the next 18 years being far more involved in an offshoot. When I finally walked away from that hot mess, I was relieved and soon after I had the realization that they were no different than the group they split from. I gave a lot of time and energy to a bunch of people who offered nothing tangible in return. I will do my best to avoid making that mistake in the future. That is the best I can do.

My suggestion to you is to let go of what can't be changed - the past - in order to help them let go.

"Regular" evangelical churches have a name (besides BS) for what was taught by TWI. They call it "license".

I can remember (vaguely) how the JW's were put down because they tweaked the KJV to fit their doctrine - of course the KJV was tweaked to fit trinitarian doctrine - and so on (ad nauseam).

My point is that it drove me crazy to be a literalist. The book practically demands a rewrite if one wants to remain one.

JB preferred to work in the "background" as did I (no one ever heard of me outside the home office). He was never part of the "prophetic council" and he didn't claim prophetic abilities, but he was very much involved in getting EL demonized because he did not like her. He was really ticked off because the J's and M would talk to me whenever I called or came by. He thought I had too much influence, and he didn't like that.

I think it's the height of arrogance to claim that one has the one correct translation, when it's really nothing more than a rewrite to support one's own doctrine. At least they admit that (in so many words).

I hope you are right. My fear was that some charismatic lunatic would filter to the top and lead everyone off a cliff. Hearing from recent outies has alleviated most of that fear.

I don't know what other plans JB had for STFI other than he wanted JAL gone and MG gone. That happened. I don't know if he moved down to Martinsville when the home office did, but the drive from where he lived to Martinsville would have been brutal. That would have been enough for me to consider other options.He doesn't strike me as being a staying with a sinking ship sort of guy, even if all this was according to his plan. I think he wagered that JAL's exit and MG's exit would somehow ignite the organization into relevance, and when that didn't happen, he chose to move away rather than watch it sink further into oblivion.

On the other hand, he might have simply deferred to his wife's wishes to go back home and be normal.