Larry N Moore

I really like you, Oldies!

You could always start a thread in Doctrinal, and present the class session by session with whatever corrections or adjustments you deem necessary.

He might have to get permission first.

There's really not that much information in each session, and it's not rocket science. If I were to do so, sifting the wheat from the chaff, the sessions would be pretty short. Especially session 12.

It would take me more than five minutes, I'm sure, to find my dust-covered sylabus. Where's that chaff pile?

Maybe I'll do that.

Dan <----- ducking tomatoes ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Well, the only "tomatoes" I have in my possession is confusion. Your attitude seems to be changing a bit from when you first arrived here. Is that a good thing? What do I know. :blink:

Now then, <snip>

Now then, I see that you would prefer NOT to address my syllogism. Fine. It stands un-refuted.

Let's take a look at it.

If it's all the same to you I would prefer that you address my last post. Can you show me how my syllogism is in error?

I've had a temporary change of heart (no I haven't change my pov on the subject) to take another crack at this subject.

Here is a question derived from the following doctrine:

Indeed, according to the doctrine of total inability (the first of the five points of Calvinism), the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's heart to give them the ability to love him.

If no one "is willing or able to come to or follow God without God "first regenerating" that "person's heart to give them the ability to love him." why would God not simply regenerate everyone's heart to love Him?

Either God is not all-powerful -- which the doctrine implies

Or God is not all loving -- which the doctrine also implies

Or the doctrine is false.

Perhaps a syllogism would help.

It takes God's power to regenerate a person's heart to come to Him.

If you have come to God it is because God has regenerated your heart.

If you have not come to God it is because God has not regenerated your heart.

Therefore it is God who determines who comes to Him and who doesn't.

I've enjoyed TBone's and others' humorous takes on the "benefits of the class" from the green card on various threads, but I'm asking this for a quite serious reason. (Between TBone and me, I'm the serious Smother's Brother. T, that's right. Mom always liked me best.)

Can anyone post the exact wording of the back of the green card? I would like to have it for my own personal recovery from Waybrain, so I can think through the claims of the class point by point. If no one has an actual card or other authoritive document, I suppose we can come up with it together. Feel free to use this thread to discuss the claims and crack all the jokes you want. The more the merrier, but I do have a serious personal purpose for this, and serious discussion about the claims of the class is likewise welcome.

Love you all,

Dan

Promotes more harmony in the home.

Enables you to separate truth from error.

Explains apparent Bible contradictions.

Interesting topic Dan! Wasn't there also an "Agreement" clause on the "Green Card". Meaning the purpose why you (the person signing up for the class) were taking it?

That is the basis for the objection against unconditional election that is anticipated by Paul in Romans 9:19 and dismissed (without any philosophical explanation) in Romans 9:20-21.

(see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...ion=8;49;47;15; )

The following is excerpted from The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorrain Boettner.

Reformed resources:

Boettner’s Reformed Doctrine of Predestination is online at several sites (see http://www.lgmarshall.org/Boettner/boettner_rdp00.html )

A rather comprehensive site for Reformed theological resources is http://www.monergism.com .

I came across http://www.lgmarshall.org/authorindex.html this evening. Its author list and resource links are impressive.

For a discussion about the tension between God’s unconditional predestination of only the elect to salvation and God’s desire that all men be saved, see John Piper’s “Are There Two Wills in God? (Divine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved) at http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary...o_Wills_in_God/ . Piper shows that Scripture indicates God wills some things in one way that he does not will in another way.

Note to Sunesis:

In addition to Geer, both John Schoenheit and John Lynn (I don’t know about the other fellow) have promoted a claim that God lacks complete foreknowledge.

Note to all:

I have several commitments that will be increasingly demanding of my thoughts and time, and I probably will not (after this post) be involved in discussions at GSC for a while.

I appreciate the links Cynic. I have but two comments and one question to ask (and then I'll be finished here).

With the exception of Geer I cannot deny that John Lynn promotes the claim that God lacks foreknowledge. I've seen Lynn's work on this. Geer's I have not. But be that as it may they are not the only ones capable of researching the subject. Your links are not news to me.

Now my question. If I've been foreordained -- elected to receive salvation -- would God also foreordain that I would become an atheist?

My second comment. If I have no choice -- meaning that God had determine afore time what my choice would be then I cannot worship such a God. And even that would be foreordained of God. You can't have it one way and not the other.

Enjoy!

These posts hurt my heart and make me sad.... :(

I'm sorry another spot. :( Forgive me.

Actually I was thinking of something from the Epistles. Something about when the Gentiles do by nature that which is good . . .

maybe I'll have to dig a NT out and find it. :)

Yep. You're right. Now that you mention it I remember that one.

Hey Dot! The thought just occurred to me that you learned your lessons well from TWI. Did you help formulate the mindset of "mark and avoid"? :)

Sun

The ignore feature is in your mailbox to the left, you will still see their avitar but never had to read a poster you find annoying.

Several people have been using it and it makes things much more "unprickly"

Always good to see you Sunesis

You're a riot!

What is Wikipedia? I get that it's an encyclopedia and it is someone's definition of twi.

And.....? I don't understand it beyond that

Yeah, Shellon -- it is sorta like an encyclopedia. It's an open source site where anyone can contribute -- I think you have to be a member though. Any edits are first reviewed by a staff. I think the "discussion" tab shows where there are disagreements over what's contained in the main section. Pretty interesting stuff -- but like with any open source of this sort -- you have to take it with a grain of salt.

Good catch Sunesis, good post

Sun - you can use the ignore feature

I love it!

Martindale's view that homosexuality was the Devil's strategy for destroying The Way manifested itself in his Way of Abundance and Power class. This is where he taught the original sin of mankind was Eve having lesbian sex with the Devil, who appeared in the form of a woman.

Now this I find interesting. I never sat through the new and improved version of PFAL so help me out here.

When LCM was covering this section how did he account for this verse?

Genesis 3:6 ". . . she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I mean -- if Eve's sin was having sex with the Devil disguised as a woman did Adam partake of that fruit by having a threesome or did the Devil change into a man?

I've had enough of the PMs about this.

I've never been so sorry for starting a thread in my life.

Mods - kindly delete the thread.

I'm done here.

Chas with 2,881 posts to your account dating back to 2002 I can't believe you'd let a little thing like this chase you away. Have you considered using the blocking feature of the PM system? I'm actually glad I peeked into this topic and found the Wiki link. Some interesting stuff there.

Or did you just mean you were done with this thread? :blink:

Sky, even your New Testament speaks of the unbelievers who do that which is right, while the believers do not. I can't remember the exact verse and wording - if you'd like I'll find it for you. But the point is, don't be so sure that your Wicans can't have as many reedmable qualities as your bible believing Christians. Even your Bible says that isn't so.

Or perhaps you need to define "redeeming qualities"?

Gee Abi, I thought you read everything I posted. Just kidding. :)

I already mentioned to sky about the parable of the Good Samaritan -- if that is what you were thinking of.

Not really a "black sheep"...more like one that's stuck in the quicksand and needs to be pulled out...

:) Did ya know that that's a myth? People can quite easily extradite themselves from quicksand. But it's nice to know someone thinks I need to be rescued.

Help me!!!!!! I've fallen and I can't get up!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Larry...That's a valid question...I no longer consider YOU a guest, that's for sure...

Aw shucks Groucho. I'm touched that you consider me part of the family. Would I be one of the "black sheep" in the family? ;)

Larry:

u said: If YOU were the only one to ever believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed him as Lord of life (that's an interesting phrase to think about in itself) would God still have sent him and would Jesus still have sacrificed himself for you?

Well its a good thing that doesnt exist huh? Thats kind of like asking a guy who blew up himself with a grenade to save his buddy if he did it just for his buddy, I mean maybe he also did it to help his country win the war.

I guess that if he would have had to do that so that I would be saved I would have to think the answer is yes he would have sacrificed himself for me.

If however there was only one person could God just pull a Enoch and lift him out of there? dont know the answer to that question.

I suppose you'd have a valid point if the buddy happened to be the reason why the war was won. It's a little difficult for me to grasp your analogy. I mean I can't imagine a person thinking to himself: Oh boy! If I fall on that grenade and save my buddy I'll also be helping my country win the war. That presumes that the man himself would not be able to help his country win the war by staying alive. And also doesn't allow for the possibility that the man saved might be a coward and actually helps his country lose the war.

Anyways, in regards to the portion of your (previous) post that I didn't respond to. I've decided that subject is best saved for another thread and perhaps another time for me personally. I think I've monopolized this thread enuf.

I hope you'll continue to post here at GS even if someone should decide to make fun of you. But if you decide not to -- well -- go in peace.

my two cents would be Christian Family and Sex, and watching VPW's porn when i was old enough to take it....13. Was there not porn going on in that class? not only me, but junior corps were considered "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. So many a young teen was exposed to the graphically explicit CF and S class for years. i think I've watched that class 5 or 6 times before it got the axe. What were the parents thinking? what were we all thinking....

Another vote for false prophet...

:) Couldn't get enuf of it, could ya?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMSic0V-Xww

ROTFLMAO!!!!! Funny stuff waw.

On a more serious note: At what point (or according to what criteria) do you think a member of GS ceases being a "guest"?

I happen to think Larry that the whole TWI mess, is a real tear jerker up in heaven with God and Jesus for this reason: Some of these people really loved the Lord.

I think some of "these people" still love the Lord. Whether you're referring to those still associated with TWI or those that are members of GS I cannot tell but, I believe it's just as true either way.

Its sometimes hard for me to talk her at GS. There is still a lot of pain here that people have and I have some of that same pain too. . I think the good news is that if one like myself and others can look at it as a graduation ceremony from the school of hard knocks and overcoming, well then that’s a good thing and nothing to be ashamed about.

Interestingly the last time I left GS for a few years, some guy was posting to me and kind of making fun of my posts so I said well nuff of that I will wander elsewhere.

You'll get that just about anywhere you go. You can always choose to ignore such a person and that way won't cut yourself off from the fellowship you do enjoy with others.

I don’t mean to appear bullheaded but on somethings I am stuck or fixed in my view. I do believe that “truth” is a fixed reference point.

The "truth" is different to different people. But whatever your "truth" is and it works for you then hold on to it. It really doesn't matter if your "truth" is accepted by anyone else.

Here's a question for you (mind ya I'm still thinking about the rest of your post).

If YOU were the only one to ever believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed him as Lord of life (that's an interesting phrase to think about in itself) would God still have sent him and would Jesus still have sacrificed himself for you?

move to food forum

:) My dear, why not merge the two together? That way those of us that like to throw our food at each other can have our way and those who like to eat food can pick up the scraps and gorge themselves. ;)

So what your saying is there is no such thing as a garden variety athiest?

Well, if all you have in your garden are tomatoes then I guess your garden doesn't have much variety to it.

Which is why I think the best place to go to church is always first in your prayer closet.

I'm afraid of the dark. ;)

Here's the thing I think about athiests (evolutionists)

Not all evolutionists also happen to be atheists.

and maybe you can help me with that.

I wonder if it is possible to save them from eternal death, as in lights out and let me see if I can explain that.

With God -- all things are possible.

You know how the concept of believe and call upon God is so profoundly simple? Well an athiest of course doesn't beleive at all in God. So how would that effect one since there is a resurrection of the "just and unjust"? An athiest could wake up in the next life and what would there thought be? There thought would be (one would think) Well they just evolved. I mean there is no way to get an athiest out of that arguement right? Thus, how could one be saved?

Lot's of questions there. You bring up the "just" and the "unjust". Have you not read the parable of the good Samaritan? Who was the good Samaritan -- the ones who walked past the man in need or the one who stopped and helped him out? Consider that parable and then apply it to atheists. I've met many an atheists who would go out of their way to help a stranger. Does that not make them "just"? On the other hand -- I've met many a Christian who couldn't be bothered helping out a stranger. Does that make them "unjust"?

I guess I've just taken the position of letting God be God -- the judge of men's hearts. I don't know how to be a fair judge consistently. Sometimes I am -- sometimes I'm not.

Hope that helps. :)