Larry N Moore

<snip> And...ok, I’ll shut up!

(Maybe Mr. Gear will come over here, and we can have roasted squirrel and nuts!)

You realize, of course, that Mr. Squirrel might not take kindly to your suggestion to roast squirrels, don't ya?

<snip>

Have a Happy Thanksgiving

Same to you dooj. I can't whip up a Turkey dinner so, will you settle for a big dish of . . . .

I'm not sure I get your meaning...

Well, to borrow a phrase from WW -- Let me put it in PLAIN ENGLISH (caps are WW's forte, not mine) -- To each his own.

Actually, I think the last paragraph of post #17 is very good - and all that would be required at this time.

Honesty and humility.

Dooj, you bring new meaning to the phrase "back-seat driver". ;)

Actually, there's no actually about it. We all choose to drive our car in our own direction. If I want to go north, while you want to go south there's very little chance that we'll have a head-on collision (unless for some reason you decide you want to do a U-turn -- then we might have a problem).

Interesting thread. I thought post #16 was especially good.

I hope that you have a wonderful thanksgiving while in front of the turkey and watching the games too.

Right back at ya Paw!

When I read through some of these threads and in US newspapers, I have to ask myself, are all these crazy cults in America there for a reason? <snip>

Any ideas?

I suppose America is not called The Melting Pot without reason. I think it's called Liberty.

Well, thanks to ITunes I was able to find These Days (by Jackson Browne). Beautiful song. Can't locate the other one though.

Larry~

The link in Sushi's post worked for me.

These Days is one of my all time favorite JB tunes!

Thanks, guys!

~Cinder

Yes, I followed Sushi's post but I didn't recognize who the artist was. Doing a search on ITunes located it pretty quickly for me. It is a very nice song.

Having been a supporter of CES, I've gotten many pamphlets in the mail,

promoting the various "retreats", "advances", or whatever they are called,

that have been run over the past few years.

Surprisingly (or not) -- I have received NO INFO, about what has been laid out here.

As I stated earlier -- in a different thread --- this is news to me.

I'm not the best with words. So I'll let music do my talking instead.

I Held To A Dream

But this is what I think These Days.

I hope those two links work for you all.

And I hope you understand the allegorical implications of the lyrics.

For what it is worth -- those two pieces were performed by New Grass Revival.

Also an offshoot/ splinter --- from the Bluegrass Alliance, back in the 1970's.

I don't expect any comments on this thread, but I may get a few.

To me the songs say it all. I've made my comment.

David

David, could you consider redoing your links. Both of them only led me to a home page and when I did a search for the particular titles the links point to, I get no results. I'd like to hear the songs.

"And of those memories I realize Lake Erie has the most powerful and haunting presence in my mind. When I was very little . . . I would stare out over the lake form his porch, hypnotized by the enormous ships full of ore . . . . I would become absorbed in the beautiful, awesome vastness, trying to take in how something could be so enormous, and yet, I could walk down the steps from the porch and set foot in and touch the waters that were in turn touching the boats so small in the distance. So strange to be so far and still be a part of the one which my fingers could touch. As I touched the lake and thought about how in a sense, I was touching those ships as well; I was learning my first lessons of initimacy."

Lol – I can so relate to what Christian says here. With the exception of two years I've lived near Lake Erie all my life. I could practically spit in it from my front porch.

I stopped swimming in it by the time I reached thirteen – after catching so many fish with tumors I figured it wasn't safe. Anyways . . . .

Lake Erie has always served as a compass for me – it's location was/is imbedded in my mind. I've always knew what direction I was facing because I knew the Lake was always north.

The first time I moved away it took me almost five months to get my bearings. Some might wonder why I couldn't figure it out from the movement of the sun. Like I said – Lake Erie's location was embedded in my mind – in my world it meant more to me than the sun – it meant – home.

I think we all have our reference point (compass) that guides us through life. When removed from that reference point we sometimes lose our way.

Yes I think that you did.

But perhaps it is I who is misunderstanding you...

I draw a distinction between a "so called minister" which to me implies (does not state) that a person is called a minister by someone but may or may not be a minister, and a "false minister" which again to me clearly states that a person is not in fact a minister. Perhaps you do not draw this same or similar distinction.

I am in fact implying that it is possible given the events that John's letter (which was posted here on GS) details that at least one if not more of the leaders of CES were not acting as true ministers. In fact according to other information (again posted here on GS) two top leaders of CES were removed from their positions because others thought that they were not being true ministers. Both of these items detail events that actually happened.

I see no need at this time to email anyone. The information is here. I have read it...you can as well.

And for the record I do not believe that I lectured you about anything. I asked you:

"Please don't tell me what I believe. I'm not in TWI anymore so I won't listen anyway."

That is not a lecture...my children would be happy to tell you about one of my lectures. :blink:

*HEAVY sigh* Eyes I guess at this point in our exchanges all that's left for me to do is to offer you a big dish of biscuits and gravy.

Btw, my dear -- If you should happen to find a couple strands of hair in it, I assure you that they're not mine.

perhaps others are posting for JAL, LNM -- eh? Certainly things posted were slanted JAL's way, not MG's way...

It's possible but, if one were to read the TWO posts that John actually did contribute to GS it's more likely that he hasn't given permission for anyone to speak on his behalf. He didn't have a problem speaking for himself back in 2004 and 2005. No, I think you're grasping for straws. But, if it's inconvenient for you to believe that DWBH stated a clear falsehood then what else can you do? The truth will set you free. ;)

It's entirely possible that JAL and Jeff are lurking...

Anything's possible dooj. And if they are lurking here then what do you make of their silence? That they're squirming or shaking their heads in disbelief that people can be so eager to crucify them.

HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP??

It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy letters, documents, etc. about the happenings of your ministry here at the greasespot cafe...........<snip>

Red flag #1 -- John has only posted twice on GS. Once in 2004 and the other time in 2005. A little more than a year. In addition you claim he posted a load of information; long letter; other letters and documents and happenings of his ministry here. How did you get all that from only TWO posts?

Is giving false testimony of your brother in Christ a Christian thing to do?

This post has been edited by Belle: Today, 02:20 PM

Personally, I find it dishonest of a person to edit and delete a portion of a post which has been referred to in another thread (after it was reverenced).

Here it is plain and simple:

It is possible for me to call you on the phone (hypothetically) and ask you to do something for me on a forum. If I then write things on that forum that are contrary to what I asked you to write and I make you out to be a fool or a liar or anything other than a person who has done what I asked - then I have manipulated you and "the public" on the forum.

Are you suggesting that JL called Pawtucket and requested this forum to be set up? What follows from this seems to indicate that you are.

Suppose no written confirmation exists? Suppose that confirmation was made on the phone - as I stated in my first point, and as DWBH stated in the post I quoted.

Oh! Wait a minute!!!!

It seems to me that to be totally neutral, you would have to accept both DWBH's word and JAL's word equally, and to at least hold your judgement in abeyance.

A light-bulb goes off. Yes, I have no way of judging if DWBH is telling the truth. He very well could be. However, there are little red flags I've seen that suggest that there's something to this story that doesn't quite ring true.

I'll admit that I have no fondness for JAL. I've seen the wake of destruction that he can leave. I'm not claiming neutrality regarding him.

Perhaps that's a good reason for me to go back to lurking on this thread.

It might be. I do thank you for your candor and (civil) attempt to reason with me.

Thanks Larry.

I will remove your posts with that in there since that quote is in no way directed at any of the posters on that thread.

Do as you will. I don't agree with you but, that's besides the point.

Paw, you'll find where I got the quote from in Belle's new topic Who is John Lynn? It's the very last paragraph.

Larry - If I call you on the phone and ask you to do something for me, then I publically post something contrary to what I said, I have manipulated information and I've manipulated you.

Dooj, could you rephrase this? I'm not sure what you mean because the first part of the statement doesn't seem to agree with the second. Iow -- if you ask me to do something for you, how can you manipulate that request into something else?

Why do you refuse to take what DWBH wrote on face value?

Your insistence that a second written confirmation be provided comes across as naive at best and complicit at worst.

I haven't seen the first written confirmation. I asked for a confirmation written by JL that he requested this forum to be set up. I haven't found it.

<snip> I'm writing this in as neutral a fashion as I can muster.<snip>

I sense that.

Larry,

Please state the origin of that John Lynn quote you are using. And your message has been received. After the 2nd one you are just harassing people!! If you don't have a source for the John Lynn quote then I will remove the posts.

John can be his own spokesperson.

Paw, despite the fact that I thought we had an agreement, I'll comply with your PUBLICLY made DEMAND -- when I have more time to look through my computer files. In regards to "harassing people" -- I think you should take note of cman's post (above) to me. It's a clear example of harassment. DWBH post's also fit that description -- IMHO. I guess it's all relative -- isn't it?

Please don't tell me what I believe. I'm not in TWI anymore so I won't listen anyway.

Eyes, did I misunderstand you when you stated the following?

I am actually more concerned about the people of CES that were once again tricked and misled by so called ministers.

It seems to me you were making the implication that you don't think John (or the other leaders of CES) are genuine ministers. Instead of lecturing me about what you think I'm doing why don't you simply clarify what you meant. That would be appreciated.

There is much that you dont know about this situation Larry. Please avail yourself of the post that Dooj made.

She graciously did some research and found some information that might help clarify things for you.

I've done my own research, thank you very much. From it I see nothing that would indicate that JL made himself available to be questioned by members of GS on a public forum. I've heard it stated that John requested this forum to be set up. Confirmation of that statement I could not find. Maybe dooj could be so gracious as to provide me a link to that.

maybe he's playing the "devil's" advocate.

Mr. Squirrel, you're very bright.

Larry,

do you have a little program-widget that keeps reposting the same cut-and-paste every day or so?

No but, if you know of one I'd appreciate it if you could tell me how to download it. It would make it possible for me to waste less of my time.

Actually, this is not "John Lynn's response", since for this to be "John Lynn's response", it would have to be IN RESPONSE to Don's post in some way, which means it would have to have taken place AFTER Don's post. (Unless he claims personal prophecy showed him Don's post and he posted the "response" before the original post, but I've yet to see him claim this. I don't know if he is, but if he is, I haven't seen it.)

:blink:

Since you've already concluded that ministers who live lavishly are living immorally I can understand why you consider them "hucksters". Despite that conclusion, the defense that "you don't know her heart" stands because you really don't know it. You know what your heart says on the issue -- and yet, your heart could be wrong.

So you are saying then that the heart cannot be seen by actions and words?

No, I'm saying your heart could be wrong. Unless you've never been wrong about a person's motives in the past I don't think that's an unreasonable comment to make.

I bring up Solomon (and Job -- and I could bring up many other examples) wealth because the Bible clearly states that his wealth was given to him by God. Are you now judging thatGod is wrong to give such great wealth to a man who serves Him?

Strawman argument. Neither Solomon nor Job sold what they claimed to be the word for God for personal gain. I am not against wealth. I am against false prophets selling snake oil in the name of God while getting a tax break. <snip>

It's difficult to address someone whose mind is already convinced that Joyce Meyer is a false prophet. Is that also a strawman argument? What she "sells" has helped thousands and thousands of people get closer to God (in relationship). If that's called "snake oil" then even some of the members of GS are buying it. (See the other thread about Joyce Meyer). I guess they're just being tricked by another false prophet, huh?

You must have missed my previous reference to Job. He wasn't a king and yet after Satan took away all that he possessed it says the Lord doubled back his loss. How do you think God gave to Solomon or Job (or any of the others mentioned) their great wealth? Did He whip out His checkbook and write them out a blank check? I believe there's a verse that says something about "pressed down, shaken together and overflowing shall MEN give unto your bosom."

In your zeal to defend Meyer, you seem to have missed my points completely or you ignored them. Once again neither Solomon's nor Job's personal wealth came from selling the Word of God. Solomon got his wealth through taxes, being the King. Job worked for his through legitimate business - sheep/cattle business. Your analogies are missapplied.

*sigh* I guess you missed my point that Solomon was responsible for serving God's children. He was rewarded with great wealth. Do you think Solomon never spoke God's word to God's children and inspired confidence in his leadership? Seldom will a man (nation) support another man if they don't instill confidence in their ability to lead them. Solomon was such a man.

Well, Joyce says she loves God and spends all her time telling others how to live for God. I think those words and actions are in harmony with each other.

That's only a small part of what she says, and is unrepresentative of the whole. Martindale and Wierwille also said that they loved God. Look at their fruit.

We aren't talking about Martindale or Wierwille. This is a strawman argument. What is Joyce's "whole"? Are there not thousands upon thousands that have been brought to a closer relationship with God? Isn't that what God wants?

I suppose then that because someone says they love God that we must take it on faith?

And because Meyer SAYS that she " spends all her time telling others how to live for God" that it is actual credible evidence ALL all she does?

Well, I suppose you'll have to ask all those who have benefited from her ministry if what she does and says is credible evidence her ministry being of God. If it's not of God, then Satan sure does have knack for making idiots out of a bunch of people.

Have another sip of Kool-Aid.

Given the type of persecution many of the Christians suffered during the early years of Christianity I doubt many of us posting on GS would have done too well back then either.

Nice dodge/redirection. <snip> Why not address what was written in the Didache instead of redirection.

I don't recognize the Didache as being authoritative on this subject any more than I recognize the authority of the Gospel written by Mary Magdalene.

He started the conversation by posting the information.

Did he, now? John made a total of two posts. If I recall -- in his first post he stated:

"My dear pal Jeff recently informed me that he has been posting some things I've written in the past, and that it has stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest. At his suggestion, I had a nice visit with "PawTucket" by phone, and told him I'd be glad to make myself available to some degree, though probably not to the extent that will satisfy some of you."

It seems to me that an argument could be advanced that he was "baited".

He goes on to say (in that same post)

"I will probably not spend much time reading or answering a bunch of posts, but will give you my email address (jalces@aol.com) and home (317-849-5707) and office (317-255-6189) phone numbers in case you really want to communicate with me. I'm not much for communicating with those unwilling to identify themselves, although I have often done so when I felt it would serve them. I prefer the personal touch of the phone over email, so as to better experience one another's hearts."

I think he makes his position quite clear. He won't waste his time here defending himself. Why is it so difficult to understand that?

He further goes on to say:

"My goal in taking a shot at coming onto G-spot is to do whatever I can for anyone who is interested in knowing, loving, and walking with The Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, whom I have come to know much better in the years since I was dispatched by TWI. "

Which if taken in conjunction with what he says at the end . . .

"If you want to know more about Jesus, check out this link."

. . . seems to be saying, in my mind, that if anyone is interested in walking with our Lord Jesus Christ then he's interested in helping you. But if you're only interested in attacking him then -- he's not going to waste his (or the Lord's) time.

Eyes, I think what you said to Danny . . .

I am actually more concerned about the people of CES that were once again tricked and misled by so called ministers.

. . . says it all. You believe that John has tricked and misled the people of CES. It's possible that he doesn't agree with you (and based on his two posts here on GS I think it's highly likely that's what he thinks). Seeing as how you've already concluded in your mind that John is a false minister of the Lord why would he waste his time answering any of your questions. I know that if it was me -- I wouldn't.

It's easy to pull out the old "you don't know her heart" defense suggesting greed cannot be "proven". -- And the old "who are YOU to judge?" defense, suggesting judgmentalism -- And the old, "it's between them and God" thing (another form of "don't ask - don't tell). This is the kind of thinking that allows these "Christian" hucksters to continue. This is the same kind of thinking that contributed to allowing the abuse in TWI to go on for so long.

Since you've already concluded that ministers who live lavishly are living immorally I can understand why you consider them "hucksters". Despite that conclusion, the defense that "you don't know her heart" stands because you really don't know it. You know what your heart says on the issue -- and yet, your heart could be wrong.

Then someone invariably brings up the Solomon factor as a defense, comparing the modern day TV minister with an OT king.

Meyer, Copeland, Hinn and others others are not kings, <snip> In any case, the Solomon factor is irrelevant - apples and oranges.

You must have missed my previous reference to Job. He wasn't a king and yet after Satan took away all that he possessed it says the Lord doubled back his loss. How do you think God gave to Solomon or Job (or any of the others mentioned) their great wealth? Did He whip out His checkbook and write them out a blank check? I believe there's a verse that says something about "pressed down, shaken together and overflowing shall MEN give unto your bosom."

A persons heart is reflected by their words and their actions .

<snip> I don't think Meyer, Copeland, etc would have done too well back then.

Given the type of persecution many of the Christians suffered during the early years of Christianity I doubt many of us posting on GS would have done too well back then either.

Larry- Why are you trying to come to John's defence?

Although I can understand why you would think I am, I assure you that that's not what I'm doing.

He doesn't seem to give a darn what people think or say concerning him.

His legacy is in the toilet and he remains silent.

Well, when he stands before God he'll have to answer to Him. So will you and I.

Just from a logical point of view: A lot of people have questions of one single man. It would be easier for that man to simply address as many people as he can in one fell swoop. But instead he chooses to answer the masses individually. That just sounds idiotic.

From a Biblical point of view I think Titus, chapter 3, makes a lot of logical sense when it says: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I don't see anywhere in that passage where it says we are to continuously badger that person until he submits to our interrogation. One of the things that turned me off of TWI is the thinking of leaders who thought it was their God-given right and authority to interrogate you until you submitted to their way of thinking. There's no love in that. But I'm sure they (the leaders of TWI) thought otherwise.