anotherDan

Geisha, thanks for the input. I respect your POV.

Tbone, I missed your last post. I'd like to put a little spin on something you said:

But He expects us to judge thoughts, words, and deeds.

You make it clear you understand what I'm going to say later in your post.... TWIers, especially those in authority, all too often thought the could look into a person's soul and make a judgment based upon "the Word." I saw it happen destructively at times. For that reason, I'm particularly sensitive to being that way with anyone, so I would not say that God expects me to "judge thoughts" unless we were talking about my OWN thoughts. Once another's thoughts become words or deeds, then perhaps I should, or at least can, judge (in a godly way, of course) -- like, as I said before, in the case of fornication, which Paul dealt with (to use Dooj's word) "harshly." But I'm VERY careful -- perhaps too careful, not to presume to know the thoughts and intents of the heart, nor what may have driven a person to abuse food or narcotics or to forsake all that is good in the pursuit of money or "success." Things like Columbine and 911 confound me, as do many lesser things.

But (and now I speak to y'all) that's just me. Party on.

Yes, Dooj, whether in the church or in court, there are times when responsibility to judge comes into play. I could have been clearer about that. Pilate was "given" authority, and we may find ourselves in positions to decide right from wrong, and act accordingly.

Just so you know, I'm mainly concerned about what my "job" is, and I'm still figuring that out. I believe we are gifted in various ways, and likewise our varied experiences equip us and may even disqualify us from certain roles. DWBH may (for all I know) currently be in perfect correspondence with his God-given responsibilities and gifts -- an active member of the Body of Christ, in subjection to the Head and acting in concert with Him. For reasons more varied than I can discuss, I'm not in a position to be much of a judge.... and yet, I'm sure it must seem, I "judge the judgers." Forgive me this duplicity. It's just what I'm working out in my own life.

"I get to use my brain and common sense and assess people and situations as they arise."

Indeed. Too bad I didn't do that sooner in my Way journey. (Possibly because I was uncommonly not possessed of common sense.) You seem to have a considerable portion!

_{edited to add the italicized word, which didn't make the statement all that clearer}

You sound a little harsh there anotherDan.

Actually, it sounds that way to me, too! LOL I must have been reacting to some late night reading I was doing.

In my view, the venerable Pawtucket has negotiated a remarkable balance over the years, not an easy task, given the chaotic diversity of artists-and-others-formerly-known-as-Wayfers. It will be interesting to see what up with the committee comes. (that's a lit. joke) ^_^

Thanks for the heads-up, Dooj. Belle seems to have forsaken me.

Linda, in IE, under "tools" in the toolbar, go to Internet Settings, then the Advanced tab, and click Restore Advanced Settings. See if that helps.

Maybe try downloading and installing Firefox or Flock... very similar to Explorer. See if your websites look OK in them.

Sorry about your tribulations... I feel for you!

The girl had as many curves as a scenic railway.

Glad to meet you, Maria.

Joining the Army was probably not a bad choice! Hope it worked out for you, and hope you'll share more of your story.

You're right, my sizzling medium rare friend. Paul wrote the Corinthians to judge amongst themselves -- and when it comes to fornication, you just can't "not judge." Nevertheless, that snip from the Sermon on the Mount gives me pause. Fornication? I judge it evil, but I will let the Lord condemn the man who does it. I'm simply not concerned with condemning another man or woman. My job is to love (even my enemy), forbear, entreat, etc. The Lord will do the condemning / forgiving with true judgment, I really (really) trust in him to do so, and things will be made right.

That said, we must protect the innocent, and ourselves.

mr miller: thanks

you're a good man

rhino: I think you're right

You had Groucho's "boot the Wiewille apologists" thread for counsel. Now you've chosen a couple of Grease-spotters as authority. Whatever.

rascal, excie (though you've deleted your posts, and I don't have the benefit of your words), rhino, and tbone (and Dot... I know you're there):

There is nothing more abhorrent than those who abuse their "authority" to satisfy their personal desires. I understand that. And the last thing that I would wish to do is to "blame the victim."

I kick myself for betraying the Truth. I was far too foolish and stupid to have remained a "member" of the Way for far too long. The ideals I subscribed to were read into what Dr.W had promulgated. I apologize for my last post if it seemed to you to require of you any repentance.... I meant it only towards myself, for my own stupidity. My journey has brought me face to face with my own sin, and my need for forgiveness. It may not be the right forum in which to express that (how the Way was woefully inadequate in dealing with "counseling" when they themselves were abusive) but it will have to do.

Ultimately, the death of ungodliness is the message of the cross. My own ungodliness is my concern, not yours'. (and tbone, that photo is of my little grill).

I love you all.

edit: danhaasathhome@yahoo.com is my email address..... my GSC mailbox is full

judge not, lest ye be judged.

Sometimes I pray for the victims...sometimes I pray for forgiveness.

Me too. And sometimes I pray for the "bozos."

In my mind, it's not so black-and-white --- that there were "good guys" and "bad guys." Definitely, black is black. Pride, cheating, sexual or other abuse is evil. Love and kindness and commitment to the truth are good. But like my mentor TBone, an important element of recovery from the religious experiment we called the Way is to accept the responsibility for our own complicity, our own foolishness.

While I also am grateful for "DON's" measure of integrity (and my own... thank God I was spared from participating in some of the truly "black" stuff... my own capacity for sin is well-known by those who know me!) I am still hesitant to name "the good guys" and "the bad guys." All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. We all need forgiveness. I have to take that to myself, as TB said. The cross speaks to that as nothing else can. And I don't hear many others acknowledging that. Condemnation of ungodliness is perfectly acceptable with God... any honest reading of the New Testament will demonstrate that. And we should do that. That's healthy. But "around here," it really goes beyond that at times. We indulge ourselves by pointing out others' sins that we didn't do (or that we did and didn't get caught... and perhaps that we are even unaware that we did, ourselves being in denial.... see Mat. 5:21ff)

Those who accept "leadership" positions are exposing themselves to greater scrutiny. It is sometimes said that they are "held to a higher standard," generally citing the following verse:

“Let not many [of you]become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment.” (Jas 3:1 Nas)

Not true; not "held to a higher standard." We are all held to the same standard (such as that snip from the Sermon on the Mount. The reason leadership incurs stricter judgment is that they have not only done the sin, but they by their example or teaching influence others to do the same, or embolden them to do the same.

Mark said,

We all just laughed it off when that book came out. Why did we not see through it? It amazes me, and embarasses me that I was part of that and accepted those attitudes. It made me "feel like more of a man" at the time. And I still catch myself copping attitude with my wife from time to time. Fortunately she's patient and understanding and forgiving. Good thing for me women are "more emotional" huh? If my wife were more "logical" she'd have either left me or clobbered me (or both!).

Actually, I did not laugh it off. That statement hurt my heart, and was one of the beginnings of my clarity of mind in regard to that attitude. Another one was a "live" moment where the "Dr." treated his wife harshly (and publicly.... I was there).

(((((((( Rascal )))))))))) thank you so much for sharing your wonderful testimony. RG's response spoke my own heart. I love you.

Me too, Linda, and women as well. And of course, we had no corner on the market of wonderful men and women and children.

Nevertheless, as others have pointed out, attitudes that were rotten "at the top" (or at the root, if you prefer) did pervade the society called The Way Ministry, and they influenced me. I saw some things that repulsed me, and some things that touched my heart well while in the Way. The only perfection in any of us was of the Lord. My foolishness and my failings shamed me once I saw things clearer. I know quite a few others who also have grown up and grown out of their own earlier selves, and I thank God for that.

DW, good topic, and as you say, some very good responses.

I too had little regard for "secular" counselors, since I believed that God alone (and "His Word," of course) were the "answers" people needed. I visited my uncle with my family just before I went into the FC and to this day I cringe at what I might have said in my "enthusiasm" for "Christianity" as it related to his profession. He is a psychoanalyst. I stayed in touch with him through the years, and in my own journey and personal education, I began to let go of my prejudice against mental health professionals. I also began to see that although Jay Adams' methods have merit, they are not the only viable means of helping believers with mental health problems. And "mental health" is a considerable portion of the Christian message: i.e., peace and joy, and also part of what I consider to be what Jesus called "true treasure."

I called Edward (my uncle) after a splinter-group "men's weekend" where some novel techniques were used to try to help people, to get his take on them, as well as just to (finally!) just blankly discuss what he'd learned about helping people in clinical and private practice for some 30 years. We discussed Freud, of course, who I had read, and Carl Jung, who I had found to be fascinating, and who Edward appreciated as well. But mostly we talked about how being "WITH" people is sometimes the greatest key to helping them. Wish I had time to tell you a story he told me about how a severely mentally-disabled gentleman helped Edward with his own mental health (besides, no one can tell the story like Ed himself.)

Years later on a visit to my uncle again, I had to make a point of formally apologizing if I'd said anything that seemed disparaging to his field "back then"; he said he didn't recall ever feeling insulted or dismissed. It may be that I had more sense that I give myself credit for, but only knew what was in my heart.

Freud was quite a nutcase himself, in my view. A brilliant nutcase, sure. Reading him is not unlike reading the PFAL book. He's positively Wierwillian in his "certainties" and self-regard. Remember the line, I think it was in the class... referring to someone else as a blowhard..... "I'VE got THE ANSWERS!"

But we live in a post-Freudian and post-Wierwillian age, thanks be to God, and the biblical wisdom still beckons to us: "prove all things; hold fast to that which is good."

Edit: somehow I missed a bunch of posts that have now magically appeared, and again, some wonderful discussion/ comments. Really, really good stuff. My favorite, though, was Juan's.... enjoy your vacation!

Jay Adams' book was as anemic as most stuff sold in Christian bookstores IMHO. It preapred me for coiunseling about as well as Hal Lindsay's book prepared me for predicting the future.

Yeah, z, the responses are not surprising. Thanks, WW, for your excellent post.

I'm also in the whatever-floats-your-boat group. Maybe some good will come of it, and z, you seem to be a sweetheart. I definitely empathize with you. I've very much enjoyed the Richieson's Way Corps site as an alternative forum for discussion, and hope your open site will make for some good.

As far as GSC goes, I'm sure your link will lead a few people here who might benefit from the purposes of this site. Thanks for what you're trying to do.

My interaction with the Way was spiritual, and my family went into the Way Corps in '87, with the desire not only to grow in grace, and to prepare ourselves for "a lifetime of Christian service," but also to give back, to help right, the ministry that helped us to see the amazing and healing truths of God's own Word. This of course was after the Passing of a Patriarch (blows nose) and we, like many, were Dazed and Confused. Our Corps coordinators, Tom and Linda Maus*lf, left immediately after a visit to Gartmore. LCM came down to the Indiana Campus and blasted Tom and Linda for their betrayal "to God" and offered to meet with anyone who wanted to. I think I was the only one in my Corps to take him up on the offer. I met with him in the "Trustee Suite" during lunch for maybe an hour, and voiced my concerns about the ministry and the tack it was taking. He was reasonable and even meek, but said that he would only request that I afford him that which was due to ministry leaders according to Romans 13, and I gave him that.

As we were talking, Bob M*ynihan passed through the suite. He later sought me out and told me he had heard very few people speak to Rev. Martindale "like that" and wondered if "he had received any of it." I said that I thought he had. I remained in-residence with my family on the basis of our agreement that I was not going to be a yes-man to the Trustees. I felt I had a responsibility to God and a calling that required that I live my conscience.

After LCM issued the "my way or the highway" letter, I felt that he'd broken our agreement, and we left, ironically, on "Burn the Chaff Day," 1989. The wisdom of that decision, while inexplicable to some at the time, is now obviously the right decision. We had rough times since then, but by no means are we "grease-spots."

I remember with fondness the times Bob M. and I spent in the weeks ahead "working" the POP and its collateral materials, even though his conclusions inevitably differed from mine. We went though various Corps-Coordinators-Of-The-Week, including not only the M*ynihans, but the Burtons, W*lter Cummins, et al, and even our former CC's W*yne and Ferne Clapp, bless their hearts, until it was clear it was time to leave. Good people like Jim Pl*nket and Tony Kli*wer did not agree with our decision, but for us, it was right. The ministry was not salvageable. That was '89l

The rest is history.

Thoreau?

Yeah, we men were all like that..... 'ceptin' Socks and DWBH

Hey Waysider: I got over 700 bucks for my Way materials on ebay a number of years back.... I had some cool items, but mostly just the Blue Book, etc. WOW pins, that kind of thing.

I love you, man!

(((((((((((((( WG ))))))))))))))) precious soul!

My sense is that your "screwed again" comments underlie your understanding of what c r a p you were being fed.

In my view, hospice can be a wonderful ministry of caring for people at the end of their lives. Of course, it can be a mess, too, depending on how it's done. All I can say is that you and yours are in my prayers as you go through this together. I love you!

Good one, Wolf. Good job, Cynic.

I'll guess Mark Twain

Wolfie's up!

.............Jesus would have known that this woman would fulfill her duty to assist her poor and needy brother. And, because there will always be poor people on earth, she would not be lacking in opportunities to do so. But Jesus would only live on this early for a limited time period. This woman wanted to honor him and do him a kindness and this may have been her only opportunity to do so.

I see that, Abs. Thanks for sharing that.

thanks for sharing, Sockmeister