penworks

I enjoy your input now and what led you to say - that's it, it never was true - especially after having been in the research dept.

Sunesis - I forgot to respond to you on the above statement you addressed to me. First, the phrase "it never was true" is yours not mine. I did not say that. What I said was my doubts exist over how we interpreted those events as "a great movement of God." This is what I actually wrote:

"I understand you view the activities "back in the 1970s" etc. as a great movement of God, etc. as you describe. At this juncture, I guess we part company, since I have doubts about that interpretation of what was going on...emotionalism, yes. Evangelism, yes. What the nature of those things are bothers me and since to be honest I no longer hold the assumption of Christianity as valid, i.e. we're born in sin, separated from the Creator who created us and need a savior, I should probably bow out of this conversation."

I think we can all agree there was a lot of excitement and some people got healed, etc. In my view, our minds are powerful enough to produce spontaneous healings without believing in Jesus...I venture to say plenty of people in the world have experienced such things who are not Christians.

What I no longer am willing to say is that my own over-excited youthful zeal in those days (and that of other people) was "of God" in the sense there was a God directing us and "intervening in the affairs of men." My sense of what God is has changed from that view so I have re-evaluated what I did in the past. As I already mentioned, I no longer hold to a belief of a monotheistic "God," nor the assumptions Christianity is built on. It's not so incredulous that I could have arrived at this point after being on the research team. You might remember from my story Affinity for Windows posted here at GSC, that my questioning began because of that experience with the texts, etc. My journey after I left TWI brought me to where I am now. When I get my book completed, perhaps that will give you a more in-depth answer; I prefer not to write more here.

Cheers to you, Sunesis.

Linda Z - always good to see you. I agree very much.

Penworks, no reason for you to bow out. Just because you have a different take and belief/nonbelief anymore. People here have always enjoyed your insightful input, especicially from one who was there in the beginning.

I'm sure you've noticed, but there are all sorts of beliefs here. I have always found it interesting to see where people have gone over the years. I also realize now, that many people never did believe while in TWI and have stated so here. My question then to those who didn't is: How did one stand it? Especially those who went in the corps? What was one looking for? Was it a ground floor opportunity, like I think some offshoot leaders saw it as, and its the only way they know to keep the feel good power and respect coming? What kept someone who didn't believe in TWI - when it was hard enough for those who did. I sometimes think it was massive peer pressure, people with father issues who saw in VP someone who had answers. People wanted to be "right." People wanted power - a myriad of things.

I enjoy your input now and what led you to say - that's it, it never was true - especially after having been in the research dept.

I think because you don't think there was a revival and I do, is a reason to walk. You have doubts - great - so do a lot of other people.

I simply don't have anything else to say in this particular thread. How can I comment on something I don't think is real? Anyhow, it's fun reading and I always learn a lot here.

Cheers!

Why is there a movement and someone always has to "organize" it? I don't read that in Acts.

Mmm...maybe I need to go back and read Acts but it seems to me for the most part, someone DID organize a lot of it...named Paul.

I understand you view the activities "back in the 1970s" etc. as a great movement of God, etc. as you describe. At this juncture, I guess we part company, since I have doubts about that interpretation of what was going on...emotionalism, yes. Evangelism, yes. What the nature of those things are bothers me and since to be honest I no longer hold the assumption of Christianity as valid, i.e. we're born in sin, separated from the Creator who created us and need a savior, I should probably bow out of this conversation.

Cheers

On this bugus claim......wierwille set his course to structure a top-down twi hierarchy.

Yet, in those early days.....when left autonomous (functioning independently, having self-government) many twigs thrived in the power of God. Week after week, many witnessed in those self-governing twig fellowships a new reality of the presence of the Lord. Some of us enjoyed twig-hopping because each was so different, so unique. Plus, when the youth were left to their independence......twigs were hot, short, power-packed, fun, vibrant, etc. And, twigs weren't the centerpiece of the whole night......they were simply the start!

Therefore, when I look back at how wierwille co-opted the true dynamic of christianity.....I see "colonial christianity" where the monarch sits far away structuring and mandating society, searching for "the way" to insert more influence and strengthen his power base.

When though the scriptures state "members in particular in the Body of Christ, with Christ as the Head".....or, "the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee"......why was twi constantly establishing a hierarchy? Who beguiled us from the simplicity that was in Christ? When truth of the scriptures are allowed to reign supreme..............twi was the evil master.

And, when wierwille/martindale put extensive time to build up "the spiritual buffer zone" in Ohio......clearly, that was a ruse to give window-dressing to twi, to entice its image. Then, the encroachment of "colonial christianity" was on the move to your doorstep.

Some thoughts....

I agree that VPW co-opted anything good that came to Way followers, claiming it as a direct result of his "accuracy of The Word" teachings.

I agree that the enthusiasm many of us shared produced some undeniable benefits that come from a loving community -independent from the manipulations of VP or anyone else's control. The Way Tree sructure was the device of control, for sure.

Your post reminds me of a moment I had while on the Bible Lands Tour sponsored by TWI in 1986.

At the time, I was a member of the Research Team. We'd just published the Aramaic Concordance (not the Interlinear yet) in August before the ROA. The Bible Lands Tour group, led by other people on the Research Team like W*alter C*mmins, Joh* S*hoenheit, etc. gave their interpretations of the gospels and O.T. records as we visited each site, like Bethlehem, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, etc.

One day our group (a large one) took several boats across the Sea of Tiberius, also called the Sea of Galillee. While I sat there in my little seat, with a life jacket strapped on and surrounded by enthusiastic Way people, I felt left out. I was wondering what our organization was really doing. Did we have any right making money off of Bible teachings, especially a harmony of the gospels? I did not agree with the validity of doing that project, but I was not directly involved in it.

I wondered what Jesus, having crossed this very body of water at one time, would think of us? What he did, at least what the gospels record, seemed a lot different than the gymnastic-style so-called biblical research we were promoting.

By this time I doubted the validity of a gospel harmony and thankfully had nothing to do with the "research" being taught on this tour. I was on the perimeter of the research team, working on the Aramaic projects. Doubts were rising more and more every day for me. On this tour, some days I felt the enthusiasm for what WJC taught when he taught in the evenings - simple things like practicing the compassion that Jesus had, but then I picked apart so much of the rest of the teachings that there was hardly anything left to like. By this time I'd been in the ministry for 15 years, so throwing it all away was a tall order. There must be something left to salvage. By the time we got to the other side of the Sea and disembarked, I was confused but at least the control TWI had exerted on me for so long was loosening up and I was thinking on my own, sorting through what good I had experienced, what bad. The bad could all be traced back to VPW and his dogmas. The good came from knowing some great people and from keeping me focused on the more contemplative aspect of my life with what I called God at the time.

The TWI offshoots issue is of deep concern to me, which is no secret since I wrote about this in my article on GSC, "Nostalgia for TWI research raises questions." My concern has to do with this: without confronting what fundamentalism is, how cults work, or admitting facts about VPW (his alcoholism, sexual predator behavior, stealing of other's books and selling them as his own work, abuse of power, money, sex, you name it) the people who continue to promote his "research" and his ways of running a group, are doing a great dis-service to themselves and others, in my view. The antidote: appropriate education about religion and the Bible and cults and fundamentalism; critical thinking; and continuing to tell our side of the story...

Make it a good day,

Pen

http://hubpages.com/...y-Morning-Glory

Thanks for sharing your story with us. I thought you offered a powerful analogy using ice. I'm going to go ahead and quote it here for everyone, since I think you illustrate how many of us felt as we tried to recover our spontaneous responses to life while shedding TWI's dogmas.

To some degree, I know I shut down my real, honest, individual responses to life's situations while under the influence of TWI indoctrination. When trying to shed those old TWI dogma-drenched thoughts (like the world was my enemy), I was also trying to regain my identity as I swam to reach the "exit cut in the ice above" as you put it:

You wrote:

"the feeling i felt after years of having left The Way was as if my

mind was under ice. such as to a victim who ice dives and the oxygen

cuts off,like a freak accident,the victim looks for an opening while

struggling to survive,and dependeing on the depth of the dive results

in whether he will make it to the exit cut in te ice above.

Under ice hypothermia can set in very easily if the conditionals are

at the slightest bit altered or tampered with causing the BODY

temperature to slow down but still function enough to survive in a

coma like state.

In this situation the victim may see the opening exit but,not be able

to get their because of hypothernmia."

It's been over a year since I last looked at Cummin's website where he was selling research papers at at ridiculously high prices...can't find it now...BUT...here's a book that he's selling for about $175 bucks...

http://catalog.ebay....1291241?_fcls=1

correction..."somebody" is selling it for 175 bucks on Ebay...

I'll keep looking...

Thanks. I used to have a copy of this in the old days...tossed it out when I moved once.

Is it possible that most of us here are deceived? That VPW never really abused anyone?

Is it possible that all of those that have claimed that VPW abused them sexually are liars with an axe to grind?

Is is possible that the drugged rape alegations are lies from the pit of hell?

Is is possible that those who have alleged his alcoholism, meanness, vindictiveness, plaigerism, money mongering, womanizing, etc are also liars with an axe to grind?

Is it possibe that his alleged plaigerisms where just honest mistakes?

Is it possible that the snowstorm really did happen and that God really did speak to VPW and that God really did did teach VPW the word of God like it had not been known since the First Century?

Is it possible that those of us who have revealed or even repeated to others the "sins" of VPW and others "ministers" in TWI - that we are Ministers of Darkness fighting against God?

Is is possible that Word that VPW taught more than covers for any sins that he may have committed and that his "sins" if any were just those sins common to all humans?

Is it possible that even if VPW did commit the things that he as been accused of that God could and would allow him to become or remain a minister ( eg. apostle, teacher, pastor ) even though he never repented of those sins?

Is it possible?

Almost anything is possible but not everything is probable or likely. IMO, the question is: Is there credible evidence that shows these things happened or didn't happen, depending on the item. Personally, I can speak on issues regarding research, and other topics involved in my own personal story, but I can't comment on some of the rest.

Some of you know TWI was a fundamentalist cult, and so we need to understand fundamentalism before we can see what went wrong with the research based on it. (I will shamelessly plug my memoir and article posted on GSC's front page (use the link below in my signature line). Here, I'll point out the famous research escapade - That VP stole the holy spirit book from J.E. Stiles and sold it as his own work.

On the topic of VP's sexual predatory nature, I suggest reading Kristen Skedgell's latest blog entry Predators Prey.

She makes a great point about people who find it hard to believe he preyed on women, etc. Denial is at the root of that unbelief if you ask me. MAJOR denial.

Make it a good day,

Pen

Another part of this whole mixed bag is this, IMO - some folks treat the Book of Acts (and the rest of the Bible) as if it were journalism, recording the activities of THE one and only, authentic Christian activity going on at the time.

For me, the idea that TWI was in any way, shape or form like the "first century church" is a fiction that existed only in VP's delusional mind. It is ridiculous, as pointed out already in this thread. Wierwille made a bogus claim by even using the phrase, "the first century church." One major reason is because there was no unified "first century church." Pick up any book on the history of early so-called Christianity and you see that right away.

This topic gets far more complicated, I think, when we consider how "orthodox" Christianity was sort of firmed up (but not really) HUNDREDS of years after Jesus died and still is scattered around in a multitude of forms called denominations. Let's not kid ourselves...it's doubtful anyone knows "without a shadow of a doubt" exactly what Jesus intended his followers to do since we have so many translations and interpretations of the N.T. Usually the Sermon on the Mount is a good place to start to figure out what he intended but who really understands statements like: the meek will inherit the earth? Much less how to "apply" that "truth" in their lives?

Paul, bless his heart, further muddied the waters by forming his own version of Christianity (the one Luke wrote about), Barnabas went off somewhere when Paul disagreed with him (who is to say Barnabas was wrong since we don't know what really happened), and James and company stayed in Jerusalem doing their thing. Not to mention the Gnostics, etc. who had their own views. It was a diverse time, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times...still is IMO.

One good source for info on this is: Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths we Never Knew, by Bart Ehrman. It may be of use to some of you.

I believe there are a bunch of threads here on GSC that have some good background info on this, too.

Cheers.

Ever see Walter Cummin's website?...he sells "research papers" for about $250 bucks a pop!

I've tried to find this site. Can you post it here on GSC?

So, this brings up a question about scripture. How can we be so sure we know what the original, intended message was?

-----and that would make it impossible to "know that you know that you know" beyond the realm of your own private understanding.

Exactly. I don't think anyone can claim without a "shadow of a doubt" to know the original intended message. We have some good educated guesses from scholars, but those come only after YEARS of study in the history of the text, languages of the texts, etc. This subject raises a lot of issues for me, but suffice it to say, this point was one of many that caused me to finally resign from the Research Team in 1986 and leave TWI.

BTW - Some say the poetic language of some parts of scripture, i.e. Pslams, is very musical...music and poetry have a long history together. Good writing often correlates to the rhythms of music.

Hey Joe,

You're right. It is very lame to sum up what occurs on this website as either accusing or excusing TWI and VPW to feed some kind of bitterness. That kind of lameness is typically experienced in a brainwashed environment where the boundaries established by the group make it an absolute taboo to question activities of the leadership of the group.

No, a much more accurate depiction would be akin to the corporate whistle blowers in several of this last decades corporate headlines - someone alerted attention to Enron execs, Haliburton, and the activities of the recent financial organizations who were bailed out, still carrying on the status quo with airplanes, expensive retreats, high salaries while being bailed out.

But I'm sure that the corporate whistle blowers also were accused of lacking kindness, courtesy, manners, respect, love, forgiveness. The Bible teaches to give respect where respect is due. It does not teach to blindly give respect in spite of respect not being due. Also, a key tenet to forgiveness is someone has to ask for it. TWI and its leadership are notorious for acting as if they are never wrong. In such they have not asked anyone for forgiveness. They certainly haven't asked me.

And sure - you can talk about a vulture routine of picking over dead man's bones. However, on the flip side of that, there's the activities of the current BOD of TWI, which is playing the whited sepulchre routine of whitewashing a dead man's image and using it to drive another generation of blind robot followers.

And now, as Paul Harvey says, you have the other side of the story. Good day.

I like the whistle blower analogy.

Friendlyjoe, just remember that everyone has a right (like you do) to their story of their TWI experience. There are always more than two sides to every story, and it's up to us as adults to get all the information about something in order to make sound decisions for ourselves. Isn't that part of being educated? Sometimes that involves facing facts we don't like but might need to know for our own good. In my view, TWI has propagandized since its inception on a variety of topics and so I'm interested in sorting through it to cut through the hype of it and discover the nature of the system I was in for so long. It's not called a cult for no reason.

Cheers.

Yes! An innie FB friend posted this. Just made my day I tell ya!

Sorry if I was unclear. Rushing to post with no time to edit. ;)

Maybe you could make their day with posting this link on their page: http://www.precastconcrete.org/~messiah7/tw_reviews.htm

Is that a yawn or are you singing hallelujah, Arrow?

HA!

It's dreadful, I know.

But, that was on my facebook this morning.

You mean someone posted the link to that VP tape on your facebook page?

One of the most liberating things I realized after leaving the TWI mentality was that repentance works! I can't go back to change the awful things I did and taught in TWI, but I can repent (change what I'm doing now) and receive God's forgiveness. Wierwille didn't teach repentence as a condition for forgiveness. He taught that "sin-consciousness" was the problem, not sin itself. By ignoring your sin-consciousness you could automatically receive forgiveness, while CONTINUING in the sin. What a putrid perversion of grace!

Love,

Steve

While that may be true, the fact remains we can not retrieve what we lost. We can make amends with people, but time spent is time gone.

Don't think that "research means you search again" and

"we search again what twi's already done"

were new to the 1990s.

People who left in 1989 were hearing that from corps grads

into the 1990s.

(Yes, I was hearing that-at least the second quote, not the first.

Others heard the first.)

The fact sheet "For Those Who Want to Know" published in about 1979 pretty much states this, too.

"Part of research is not to find something new in the Word, but to establish in your own heart the inherent and inerrant accuracy of the truths of God's Word for yourself."

That statement assumes several things that VPW never proved to begin with. The first being that the whole Bible (he calls God's Word) is inerrant (without error). In my view, the statement really says "study VP's teachings over and over and don't try to do your own research."

One of the things about the way, is how they used that one liner,

We are a research ministry, if we are wrong, we will change?

I think this claim appealed to people's sense of honesty. Most of us like to think we'd change if we found out we were wrong about something. TWI transferred that sense of honesty to doing what they called Biblical research.

Did anyone stop to think there could be ALARMING side effects to changing what you once claimed to be "the truth" and nothing but the "accuracy of the Bible"?

Consider this: many people who based serious decisions for their lives on that "accuracy of the Bible" VP claimed to teach in PFAL, could not undo their decisions (like dropping out of college to go into the Way Corps) as easily as TWI might undo what they'd previously taught.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who alienated family members over what I claimed was "the truth" I learned in PFAL. How does a person gain back those lost years of familial relationships after TWI decides one of their original doctrines they once claimed was "the truth" is wrong?

In 1970 when I got involved, I, too, was promised TWI changed their teachings when "new light was discovered," etc. That became impossible for several reasons. To me the most glaring reason is this: VP had already taught "the Truth" in the PFAL class (inside flap of PFAL book states it is "The Accuracy of the Bible,") so how could he come back and change what he'd taught and still be considered credible?

The documentation for this claim of changing is on a handout sheet, "For Those Who Want to Know," although it is confusing to understand since whoever wrote it was apparently confused, too.

See my post #82 in this thread:

Change when learn something new

At one time, it WAS the farm. When they lost all that staff with everyone else

in 1989 (and thereabouts), that wasn't an option anymore.

There's some posters who've posted about working on the books,

or working with the people who worked on them, around here somewhere.

In 1984-1986 when I worked in the Research Dept. upstairs in the OSC, the Print Shop was downstairs right below us. In it was a huge printing press made in Germany. The guy who ran it was a 3rd Corps grad, ordained, and a friend of my ex-husband's. As far as I recall, as someone mentions in this thread, the "sensitive materials" like class syllabi etc. were printed there but I also think the Way Mag was, too, and possibly the books, although I don't think the hardcovers were put on the manuscripts at HQ...they may have been contracted out. Maybe someone else here has those details.

While I was involved during the 1970s and until 1987 when I left HQ, TWI printed materials and books under the name: The American Christian Press, with the address of HQ in New Knoxville.

I agree with Excie - Donna had a lot of compassion for people.

Now she sounds like a petty little tyrant with a seared conscience.

If you could get her out of there and away from Rosie for a few years, she'd become a totally different person - probably the one she once was.

My memories and opinions are this:

The Donna I knew in the early 1970s was compassionate. Although she, along with the rest of us, let VP's hardness of heart corrupt her view of Jim Doop, for instance. She'd been his secretary out in Calif. when VP "fired" Doop at a meeting. (described in Karl Kahler's book The Cult That Snapped.) After that, VP brought her to HQ to work in the secretarial pool in Trailer 5. At that time, the staff and Corps took that old version of Dale Carnegie's class together. I remember her being very passionate about THE WORD being the truth, in one of her speeches, and that nothing would stop her from sticking with TWI no matter what. I suspected the incident out in Calif. with Doop being painted as a traitor or something added a lot of fuel to her fire and determination to be loyal to VP.

Then after staff, she entered the 4th Corps.

He read that to people, I hear, at least 3 different times.

Was that reading the one where he brandished a firearm before he began,

or was that a different reading?

It was the first reading at HQ in the USA - only the Corps were there because it was Corps night (with a few exceptions as always). We went in expecting WJC to teach Corps night and got THAT instead. I did not see CG brandish a firearm, although I read an eyewitness account here of a person who was working on Security and she (?) said she saw CG's firearm on the podium (or on a shelf inside it or something). Karl Kahler describes the first reading in his book, The Cult that Snapped. He was in Emporia on the telephone hook-up.

For those who missed that Corps night's fireworks, a re-run (taped recording of CG reading his madness) was held the next week at HQ in the WOW auditorium again (or within a few days, I don't remember) to which all of us at HQ were required to go even if we'd heard it the first time. The doors were locked so we could not leave until the tape was over.

HA HA HA!

When was the last time you read "Passing of the Patriarch"?

http://www.greasespo...-patriarch.html

It's HARDLY an account of actual "dirty laundry."

As a whole, the document is loaded with various delusions.

It was subscribed to because the people who subscribed to it were delusional.

He may well have been shell-shocked.

No matter how you slice it, the document's far too silly to take seriously.

Couldn't agree with you more. I was in the auditorium when CG read it at Corps night April 23, 1986. Good grief.

Yes, he went to Mission House because of his father, as Oakspear pointed out.

From "The Way International's Historical Side Tour":

pg 6. "...Dr. Wierwille's father allowed him to attend college---but only on the condition that he attend the college of his father's choosing: Mission House College in Sheyboygen, Wisconsin. Today this is known as Lakeland College."

My two cents: When I first met LCM in 1970 and was in the 2nd corps with him, he was not a yelling type that I saw. He became that way under the indoctrination of VPW because he wanted so much to be just like VP.

I recently heard somone in a movie say something like, You are angry with so-and-so, why? not because they've overtly done something to you but because you feel guilty when you're around them. Why might that be?

Made me stop and think....

Page 42, 43

Rev. Wierwille never told anyone of this experience until much later when he was teaching The Way Corps. It was a most astounding phenomenon which he kept to himself.

Wow. I have a few questions about this.

First: If I thought God had told me something like this, I'd sure as heck be telling my spouse. Sounds as if he told Dotsie when he told the Corps. Nice move.

Second: He did not start the Way Corps until 1969 YEARS after this. A convenient time to "sell" these young people on his authority.

Speculation: Most lawyers will tell you that it's usually hard to "prove" a person's motive, although there is such a thing as probable cause to do something...anyhow, I'm no lawyer but I am a grad of The Way Corps from 1973 and that story was one told to me in 1970 at the Greenville, NC fellowship by Ea*l B*rton who was engaged to a woman in the First Corps who had passed along that story. Also, the limb leaders, JALCES and wife, also talked up that "fact" about VP, painting him as the MOG. This claim influenced so many of us 18, 19 year olds I can't begin to list how many...

If you had to make yourself unique, different from all the other Jesus ministries around in the 1960s and 1970s, perhaps this sort of claim would pay off. Maybe VP thought a tale like this would do the trick. Who could "prove" him wrong? A claim like that is not really falsifiable, although it does sound very delusional. And certainly to anyone who knows anything about church history, comparative religion, and a few things about the history and transmission of the text, it makes his claim quite laughable. And of course now many of us know the extent to which VP plagarized much of what he passed off as The Word, stealing from other men's work, most notably E.W. Bullinger and J.E. Stiles book on the holy spirit. and B.G. Leornard's classes. For you newcomers, those things are written about here at GSC.

Easy for me to say all these years later after leaving TWI in 1987. But in 1970, it sure helped to suck me into TWI along with lots of others...

Cheers!

Twi has ALWAYS done this......

Rather than truly analyze the problem, the blame-game is initiated to keep the spotlight OFF THE CULT'S ABUSE AND ACTIVITES.

Examples:

1) Wierwille blamed the students of the first corps program....labeled it the "zero corps."

2) Heavy rainstorms in humid Ohio in August........blame the corps' lack of believing.

3) L.E.A.D. program -- hitch-hiking and major accidents were corps' fault of course.

4) Wierwille dies at age 68.......Howard and others said vpw died of a "broken heart" when leadership/corps would stand with him.

And, someday.....when twi is little more than sell-order-bookstore joint, the directors will spin it as "No one really is hungry for the rightly-divided word anymore."

Exactly. And when people didn't sign up for the class it was because the devil tricked them out of it or we weren't walking according to revelation to get them (politely coerce them) into signing the registration card and handing over their money. Guilt guilt guilt.

I sure didn't consider (nor did anyone I knew stop to think): maybe this class is not the cure-all that we believe it is. Surely something must be wrong with people who don't want to take it. After all I took it and I'm none the worse for it, my life is great. Right, until years later when I woke up and realized it wasn't, but then the reason I was lacking in "abundance" wasn't the class's fault it was my own fault for not believing the promises of God taught in the class. Circular reasoning once again.

To break out of that thinking isn't that hard, it just takes a little bit of self awareness, of paying attention, of QUESTIONING AUTHORITY. Oh my, questioning the Word is the first step down on the spiritual road away from God, just like Eve in the garden. Her problem was she questioned. Mmm...seems to me VP was a master manipulator of scripture, people, and the blame game.