penworks

Hi there, Bob. It's great to have you here, and I for one appreciate your willingness to post on this ever-meandering topic. Thanks for your perspective and insights...we've sure come a long way from those old TWI "research" days, huh?

I hope you'll post more on these pertinent topics that affected so many ex-TWI folks. As you said, it's valuable to understand how the research got the way it was...as you look around GSC, you'll find many other voices that add to the history of it all, too...

Cheers!

Charlene

Thanks for the current info, O.S. As you mentioned, there are lots of threads here about TWI so-called biblical research. Here's an oldie but goodie:

Research ministry?

Nicely put, Taz.

Now a word from our sponsor...

Argument clinic

Well, to me it's a matter of holding a certain viewpoint as to whether or not we get a story with so much continuity etc. as Geisha stated, "how we got a story full of continuity and congruence over 3 continents, 3 languages, 1500 years, 66 books, and 40 authors from all walks of life telling one story about one particular man to come . . . having arrived. . . did what He did and left. .. promising to return."

This is wide open for interpretation and debate and in my view most likely belongs in the doctrinal forum.

Geisha,

Just so you know, you give me plenty to think over and I do appreciate the time you take in your posts. Your many descriptions of the different documents in the Bible and what they say of themselves were lovely. And they were just that: different documents. My question was along a different line, though. To me, since each description or claim or statement you gave is from or about a particular book in the Bible (a stand-alone piece of writing) none of them is referring to the Bible as a whole. We both know this and most readers here do, too, that since the Bible was assembled years later than the time when those passages were written, how in the world could any of those passages refer to the final product called the Bible? It didn’t exist when they were written. That was what I was questioning.

My question was about trying to understand how, as many people do, using one description in one gospel or epistle or Old Testament book could be a statement about the whole Bible? It seems impossible to me. For instance, VP and others interpret such statements as John 17:17 as referring to the Bible, but that verse in fact is from a prayer Jesus was saying out loud to God, and included the phrase: “Thy word is truth.” Jesus did not say (and I know this is silly but bear with me) these books in the Bible are “truth” because obviously there was no Bible yet and (we both know this, too) the men who decided which documents to put in it were not in agreement for a long time. This info is readily available, even on Wikipedia (for anyone reading this who wants more info).

Anyhow, to avoid pounding this into the ground (or repeating myself as was mentioned I do) I’ll just sign off by saying my interest is in understanding each document in the Bible separately, on its own terms, and how the men who wrote them came to do it. Geisha, I think that’s where our mix up in communication often stems from...maybe not. No hard feelings...

Cheers!

Hey there. C'mon in and rest awhile. There's plenty to chew on here and lots of similar journeys to read and learn from. Take your time and know we're happy to help however we can!

Cheers!

Gosh, I just wondered where in the Bible the claim was that referred to the whole Bible, since the Bible wasn't put together until LONG after any of those documents were written. Anyway, no big deal. Too many canons can be called the Bible anyway, which complicates the matter further.

Guess as an unbeliever in the statement that the Bible is God's Word, I'll step out of this thread. I ain't no scholar or theologian...I just ask too many silly questions.

One question for Geisha regarding her statement: "This specific collection makes claims about itself."

My question: Where is the statement?

In the past, a person could get fired for "being too academic."

It seems to me that any organization that charges money to learn their interpretation of the scriptures which they claim to be The Word of God is suspect.

The "nostalgia for research" article/thread prompted me to contemplate the significance of "inerrancy".

The Way Ministry focused primarily on study of The Pauline Epistles. This was a precedent that was established early in the PFAL class via the introduction of Biblical administrations (Dispensationalism), the concept of observing "To Whom It Is Written" and the idea behind all people belonging to three specific categories. ("Jew, Gentile or Church of God") In addition, it was established early in the PFAL class that what "Holy Men of God" spoke or wrote was tantamount to words directly from God, himself. Thus, we were to consider the contents of The Church Epistles to be equivalent to words from God (Holy Men Of God Spoke.), directly to us (To The Church of God),

Here is were it gets sticky. Using the aforementioned criteria, it became an accepted "given" that whatever Paul said in Ephesians, Corinthians, etc was the same thing as God saying it directly to us. Suppose for a moment, though, that Paul was, perhaps, the VPW of his day. (So often, people would put forth the inverse idea that VPW was the Apostle Paul of our day and time.)

Well, I'll just say a lot of Waysider's thoughts I've entertained, too, although I steer away from suspecting that Paul's motives were less than sincere or like a con man's. Maybe, maybe not.

What does interest me, though, is the historical approach to the Scriptures that Waysider is bringing attention to in this post. I think VPW deliberately steered us away from asking these sorts of questions because he had already made up his own mind that an historical-critical approach was bad, that it meant the person thinking like this was a God rejector, etc. He repeatedly made statements like that in the PFAL class and in public meetings.

Anyhow, I for one have come to accept that those letters were written for specific reasons to specific people about specific situations and not to me...

Also, I noticed in an article "Our Sufficiency is from God" on the new Way web site that they are using a translation VP never used to my knowledge, so I guess they've "changed" something in their reserach approach. It's a N.T. translation by Charles Bray Williams. Here is why he said he produced it, from the web site http://www.sprawls.org/williams/about_the_translator.htm

“In these four centuries (since the death of William Tyndale, who was condemned to death for translating the New Testament into English and for seeking to put it into the hands of the plain people) scores of other translations have been made. Then why make another? someone asks. A distinguished Bible scholar answers, "Language is a fluid thing. It does not remain fixed for a day. There is therefore constant need of retranslation."

Our aim in publishing this new translation is that of Tyndale, "to cause the plowboy to know the Scriptures." Our aim is to make this greatest book in the world readable and understandable by the plain people. Only three books in the New Testament are written in anything like good literary Greek–Luke, the Acts, and Hebrews. In our translation of these books we have tried to use good, smooth English. Elsewhere we use simple everyday English which reproduces the everyday Greek which the writers used. In accord with this aim we have used practical everyday words to replace many technical religious and theological terms. In other words, we have tried to use the words and phrases that are understandable by the farmer and the fisherman, by the carpenter and the cowboy, by the cobbler and the cabdriver, by the merchant and the miner, by the milkmaid and the housemistress, by the woodcutter and the trucker. If these can understand it, it is certain that the scholar, the teacher, the minister, the lawyer, the doctor, and all others can.”

From where I sit......the "next generation" is, mostly, not buying into the wierwille/cult hype. Sure, there will be a few (8-10% ??) who might be swayed, but from my corner of the world.....I don't see it.

Heck, even the offshoot leaders' kids do NOT want it......CFF, CES, others?? Now granted, I have no idea about the many offshoots all over the country.....60 offshoots ??.....but have heard snippets of some.

And, didn't that SOWERS-program amount to 4 graduates .......??? At that rate, it's gonna take awhile to get "word over Ethel, Mississippi".....population 451.

<_<

Thanks for this...I hope it all fades out...people do grow up and begin to question...sometimes...

At least they put PFAL in mothballs. That's a step in the right direction. Take the poison off the shelf. Keep it out of the reach of children.

Does anyone know how much or what portions of PFAL content is carried over into their new class, The Way of Abundance and Power?

I didn't read any books or novels since they were "lies." What a crying shame...since I was an avid reader growing up.

Close to the time I left TWI, I read the novel, The Word by Irving Wallace. It's a fun read...actually makes you think! What a concept...

It is a far cry from "The Word" by VPW!

What the hell does that really mean anyway? Isn't that contrary to research? True, objective research would have to mean that you are willing to re-examine your conclusions to see if they still fit in light of new findings that may have a shared context. Currently at TWI - they have what they term "proven ministry research". It's silently considered above any further "research". And yes, this means that the so called research Department, which is really President's Publications, spends time working things from what has already been published as a first, and almost always final, authority. The logic you may ask? What has been published is "proven ministry research". To me it would be more honest to call it "enshrined conclusions from supposed research that happened a long time ago by people who are either dead or long gone".

I only wish I was as cynical as this sounds...it's true.

From OldSkool's comments: Currently at TWI - they have what they term "proven ministry research".

My questions:

Do they say that they have "unproven ministry research," too?

Do they list anywhere the people doing "research" or their credentials?

Do they publish in any journals anywhere?

After 60 years of "reconstructing the original" of the Bible, have they done it yet?

Do they access the databases in other organizations that track all the varients in extant manuscripts?

Just asking...

Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury, the "Firemen's" job was to burn the inside of houses that contained books.

IMO that should be on a post-TWI reading list. Along with 1984 by Orwell mentioned by RumRunner. There are so many parallels in both books with the TWI experience some of us had, as well as Patti Roberts' From Ashes to Gold, her memoir about being a student and singing in the choir at Oral Roberts University and later as the wife of Oral's son, their divorce, her leaving the fold, and her recreation of a life outside the "cause."

Cheers! And many happy wishes!

Pen

I don't think the "MOG" could stomach the thought that the "ministry" could survive without him. The poop paper (I like that!) was him telling those of us that were around that none of us could make it without him...at least in his mind. He was the only one "spiritual" enough to lead the ministry.

Let me be real clear...Wierwille wanted the ministry to fail without him. He could not stand it being successful, not that it was.

Perhaps the answer is that many are looking for a hero. Perhaps the answer is many are looking for a good father substitute. I'm getting pretty deep, I know. Someone please pass the chocolate chip cookies.

Yes, I agree that it is highly likely he didn't want his ministry to go on without him and so in the PoP tirade, he said it was aleady contaminated even before he died, etc.

My post, which I guess I didn't make too clear, was really more about questioning whether we can say the "next generation" has woken up; in my view many have NOT. They are buying into the TWI wannabee groups, repeating the same dogmas VP propounded, etc. Granted, as Skyrider shared, his kids don't, and my daughter certainly does not, but many of her peers do. They took PFAL when they were 12 years old in the mid 1980s, right around the time we left TWI, and PFAL, VPW and the cliche lifestyle still hold sway over them.

They seek out youth groups and camps and weekend "advances" run by spinoff groups to reinforce the old TWI-based Bible rhetoric and cliched thinking. These groups are under the direction of people from my generation (I guess I would be the first generation since I took PFAL in Dec. 1970 at ECU). Many spinoffs are longtime Corps grads who are, in my view, still deluded about VP being the man of God when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary but they choose to either stay ignorant of it or deny it outright. I find that irresponsible and harmful beyond words.

We're supposed to be the adults and figure out how to guide our kids, yet my peers seem to have dropped the ball by not examining the system we were in and not listening to "the other side of the story" that is told in places like this web site (not that there really are any except for a few blogs). Worse than that in my opinion, is that they're actively PROMOTING the dogmas, directly or indirectly, by continuing to indoctrinate their own kids (and other's kids), who aren't even kids anymore, they are 30 years old! I say shame on them.

On top of that, some of my generation who left TWI but just went on to other things in their lives and never tried to confront their TWI experience and sort it out have another set of problems of their own making. They did not talk to their kids (now grown up) about TWI nor explain the dangers of it or encourage their kids to get educated about cults, fundamentalism, etc. so that their kids get easily sucked into a TWI offshoot and these parents shake their heads and wonder why! I know, I've talked with them. Amazing and very sad...some of their kids, now self-righteous spinoff believers think their own parents who left TWI are the unbelievers! This is messed up beyond words.

Anyhow, my point is that I'm not sure that the cult is dying out...granted, it's slightly revised in these offshoots, but its essence still thrives in them. It's sickening to me and I hold the parents (my generation) responsible for not admitting the known facts of VPW's life, twisted research, and abuse of power. Many have not disassociated themselves with the fanatic fundamentalist attitudes, the propaganda about The Bible, and the non-civil discourse (to say the least) that these groups promote.

One reason for the failure of some parents to give up TWI dogma, I've been told, is the psychological bonding that went on between VP and his "girls," girls he took advantage of sexually long ago, some of whom are now mothers of grown up kids. That bond created a loyalty to VP and "the Word" he taught that is difficult to break, for some women (obviously not the ones willing to speak out against it). But that is another can of worms for another topic...

Enjoy your day!

I tell these "kids" they are responsible for anything rosie et al. does.

Interesting...could you, would you elaborate a little more on this idea?

I wonder how they maintain the "accuracy" of The Word as they translate TWI teachings into their language?

The chickens have come home to roost.....ie the bad policies, the legalism, the elitism, bad research ethics, sexual predation, bullying practices, etc....HAVE COME HOME.

Call it "what you reap, you sow".....call it karma, or whatever....it happens.

Whether in wierwille's twi, or ces, or the cgeer franchise.....it seems to take about 15 years before the followers catch on to the fool-erers. As wierwille ratcheted up his movement in 1969 with program after program, by 1982/83 it was unraveling. The wierwille cult is little more than a retirement center (hq) and anemic pockets of support for books/teaching tapes. With CES.....dangerous treks into a momentus canyon, personal prophecies where nose-spiders consume human brains, and threats of lawsuits.....the power-grabs seem so twi-like, don't they? And then, there's the geer franchise where food-chain operators wanted to distance themselves from the franchise brand and franchise bills.

Wierwille was too narcisstic to change and alter his course. He bullied his way through countless situations in his past and couldn't find humility to listen to others. Even when corps were exiting in the latter 70s......wierwille's feathers weren't ruffled. Even when bodyguards and/or pilots flew the coop...wierwille remained undaunted.

Imo....it wasn't wierwille's death nor cgeer's poop paper that initiated the exodus, it was the assimilation of discrepancies, hypocrisy, doesn't-pass-the-smell-test, etc. No longer were these ADULTS going to follow in lock-step another leader, namely Martindale. The push-back was stiffening and it was only a matter of time. Wierwille's health problems, and the subsequent cancer-death lies only solidified the growing disdain of being fleeced as fools.

The chickens were coming home to roost......and the problems mounted exponentially from there.

One generation........is about all it takes for people to wake up and see the hypocrisy, the scam. One generation........and the loyalty fades away. Most kids have no interest in following.

The wise man builds his house upon a rock.........and the house on the rock stands firm.

The foolish man builds his house upon the sand.....and it all comes tumbling down.

While I tend to agree with most of this, I can't help but wonder how this line of thinking accounts for the many (many, many, and more popping up every day that I've seen on the web) offshoots or spin-off TWI wannabees. Many of my daughter's generation (in their 30s now) revere Wierwille as their father in the Word, a man they never knew as even young teenagers, since he died in 1985. They revere the leaders of these spin-offs just a surely as we (I should speak for myself) revered VPW as "the man of God" and they continue to revere the dogmas (no matter how slightly revised or re-worded it is) and propaganda about the Bible as if it is The Word of God, just as their parents did.

Makes me wonder...

Not from lack of trying.

I heard the early form of this slogan from vpw on ROA tapes.

(Review ROA '79's tapes sometime.)

I probably heard him say it in passing on other tapes as well.

He started off with the early form, phrased a little different,

and as a question, then required the answer from large groups

where SOMEONE was bound to give him the answer he wanted.

"Where would we be without GOD?"

(audience off-microphone)

"That's right, some of us, we'd be DEAD!"

From there it was a short hop to swap out "God" for "God's ministry"

or "God's class" or some other nonsense,

making it "if not for the plagiarizing rapist, his class, and his group,

I'd be dead!"

One more short hop brings you to "I must owe this organization my slave-labor

for life!"

Well put, I have to say the same things are in my memory banks, too!

You make a good observation, and in my view, it aptly addresses part of the overall setup of the Way, with the Way Corps in particular. I was in that program 1971-73. VPW used to tell us to counter any complaints from our parents about the intensity of our training and limitations on visits home by likening our isolation to that of boot camp for the military...we were to ask our parents what was the difference? Would they complain if we couldn't come home for family events while in training in the Marines or Navy or any other branch of the military? No, was the assumed answer. VPW gave us further info to try and use to intimidate our parents - that they should be happy we were in training to serve God and his people (of course VP was just using us to further his cause), and that is a much more important mission than any earthly cause like serving our country; missing family events like weddings, etc. shouldn't bother our folks!

I have to tell you I never repeated that cr*p to my father. It just wasn’t my style. And I got away with going to my father's wedding, too, because D*l D*ncan, my Corps coordinator, gave me permission to fly up to New England for that event. I never asked VP directly for permission, only D*l. But when VP found out I was away for the wedding, D*l got in trouble and took the heat for it. I was so thankful for D*l’s stepping in; he had known it was important for me to be there for my dad since my mother had died three years earlier and my father had found happiness that I needed to share in, too.

Although there are many incidents when D*l and other Corps coordinators made screwed up decisions for people’s lives, for me this is a good one to be remembered...

Last night I came across the movie, Inherit the Wind, which I’ve seen before, showing on the Turner Classic Movies channel and found myself loving it even more than I did first time I watched it. Here are some summaries about the plot, which I think ties into the topic of this thread about where we got the idea that truth can be found only in the Bible.

Netflix summary from their web site:

Spencer Tracy (in one of his best roles) as lawyer Henry Drummond and Fredric March as Matthew Harrison Brady square off as opposing attorneys in this blistering courtroom drama about the famed 1930s "Scopes Monkey Trial," where a Tennessee teacher was taken to task for teaching Darwinism in the schoolroom. Song-and-dance man Gene Kelly co-stars as newspaper reporter H.L. Mencken

And from Inherit the Wind - film plot summary

Inherit the Wind (1960) portrays, in partly fictionalized form, the famous and dramatic courtroom "Monkey Trial" battle (in the sultry summer of 1925 in Dayton, Tennessee) between two famous lawyers (Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan) who volunteered to heatedly argue both sides of the case (over 12 days, including two weekends).

Its story centers around the issue of evolution vs. creationism, in the prosecution of 24 year-old Dayton High School mathematics teacher and sports coach - and substitute science teacher - John T. Scopes for violating state law (the 1925 Butler Act) by teaching the Darwin's theory of evolution in a state-funded school. The film's title was taken from the Biblical book of Proverbs 11:29: "He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind."