penworks

"...critical thinking skills are like a muscle; either use it or lose it."

I think there's a lot of truth in this; in my own experience, at least...and that was what finally got me out of TWI: awakening that faculty of my mind. The memoir I wrote, An Affinity for Windows, which is now posted here at GSC (front page link), is meant to show how that happened for me. Maybe it'll make sense for others...guess I'm tooting my own horn, but why not? It fits this topic, right?

Peace,

Charlene

Charlene, the only problem I have with the article is that you describe the inerrancy of the Bible as a TWI conclusion. I don't remember ANYONE ever saying "...therefore, God's Word is perfect." The inerrancy of the Bible is an AXIOM, something assumed to be true without proof. For me, a fundamentalist, it is not only reasonable but also makes the Bible more than just a bunch of short stories. It makes more sense to me to believe ALL of it than to pick and choose.

George

You brought out a good point when you said,"The inerrancy of the Bible is an AXIOM, something assumed to be true without proof. For me, a fundamentalist, it is not only reasonable but also makes the Bible more than just a bunch of short stories."

Actually, that is my point, that it is something assumed to be true without proof. No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever shown it to be "true." For that reason, it is in the category of belief. Which is fine. Most people just don't come out and say it is their belief. They say it is the truth.

And you are right, it is not only a TWI "problem" as you said. It is an assumption made by anyone who believes the Bible is the Word of God.

VPW said this sort of thing all the time. PFAL book, page 128:

"If it is God's Word, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to the original, God-breathed Word - which I am confident we can - then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord."

Not having a contradiction means without error, which is inerrancy. Anything without error is perfect.

Has anyone shown the Bible in its completion to be perfect?

Which canon and which translation of which version would you use to show it?

Those are questions to which I have no answers...do you?

These are honest questions I've been asking myself for a long time...my conclusion is it is okay not to have answers. Life is bigger than this...

Peace,

Charlene

Posted Yesterday, 09:31 PM

krys, on 30 October 2009 - 02:19 AM, said:

Research Geek has given you God's perspective on things. . .

"Debatable".............per Bolshevik.

imho, the geek has given the perspective of another twi offshoot, cffm............debatable at best................penworks' post provides more of "god's perspective" than the geek's, imho............good questions too................any answers??????...................peace.

Thanks for the compliment above, DWBH, but I need to say that I shy away from any claims to having more of "god's perspective." I'm sure you understand where that can lead! But I agree with you that it is VERY important to say something about the value of perspectives; some are better, healthier, and more sound minded than others.

Cheers!

DWBH wrote:

"my engines just can't take this one captain!! imho, there's as much twi influence in stiffy as there is in cffm, the geerites, and any other twi offshoot/way tree splinter group! they pay constant homage to the "great truths" der vicster taught them, brag about the fact that wierwille, the founder of twi and stiffy theology, would be proud of what they're doing, and every single person who sits on their exalted BOD is an ex-wayfer! ( "ex" nominally at least). and yet, you state billy, how very happy you are to see much of the twi influence go away????????????????

DWBH has questions that no one from those groups has answered yet, at least here at this site that I know of. How come?

As far as I know, another reason they cannot get away from TWI's influence (besides the fact former TWI people are running them like DWBH pointed out) is that as far as I can tell, they continue to use as their foundation, the following from PFAL book, pg.5:

"The first and most basic key for power for abundant living is that the Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God. This key is the greatest secret in the world today. It is a secret not because God is keeping it to Himself; it is a secret because people have not believed."

STOP.

These three sentences are LOADED with assumptions but the one point I want to make here is this:

The definition of a "secret" is something that is hidden, NOT something that is not believed. Merriam Webster defines a secret as something, "kept from knowledge or view."

However, for something to be BELIEVED, it has to be KNOWN first, then it can be accepted or rejected.

A secret is NOT KNOWN. So of course, it cannot be believed or rejected yet.

Right off the bat, when I heard this I should have started asking questions.

VPW changed the meaning of an ENGLISH word seemingly at his whim right in the first session of PFAL right under my nose. And I let him get away with it. Why did I do that? For one thing, I WANTED what he taught me to be true. The reasons for that are complex and personal; as are everyone else's.

IMO, I think the best thing to do is to take each sentence of what people say or write and THINK ABOUT IT before we get caught up in believing it and then paying money to learn more about it.

Peace,

Charlene

Well, the fact remains that TWI and its offshoots are fundamentalist Christian groups (the term "Christian" is questionable, I know) and while some people like that sort of system because it seems to offer a sense of certainty about stuff like what the Bible REALLY says, etc, lots of other people aren't interested in that system.

For starters, they find it a system of denial about all sorts of things. Things like the cultural roots of Christianity are vastly different than the society we live in today, so to try and recreate the first century church today is a pipe dream (not to mention there was no clear-cut first century church, but that's another story). That's just a tiny starter...

Personally, I find TWI and its offshoots as suffocating as a blanket over my head. Guess I feel pretty opinionated this morning...

Anyway,no matter how many certificates they hand out for good attendance, I'm pretty sure they would not want me back, I ask too many questions...

The one I'm asking myself right now is, what the heck I'm doing up at this hour on Sunday morning - oh, someone had the bright idea to change the time BACKWARDS. How do you reset your sleep cycle?

Peace and happy November! Where does the time go? Oh, yeah...it goes backwards, which is okay for ONE day but I sure hope they don't decide to crank it back 20 years. Although some groups seem to be trying to do that...

Peace,

Charlene

This part of DWBH's post is one of the most shocking and disturbing things I've ever heard about John S. I used to know him. I worked with him on the Research Team 1984-86.

"...among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!!

Learning this makes today a very sad day for me...and I will email John myself...this is very scary.

Charlene

Research Geek has given you God's perspective on things. He has laid out for you a path to healing. Do not confuse his words with what you remember being force-fed in twi. They are not the same. Unless you can separate them, you will be running in circles and wallowing in bitterness the rest of your life. Swallow your pride and listen to him.

Not everything we were taught was a lie. Not everything was wrong. Yes, much was. But much is also perfectly and correctly the Word of God which does, indeed apply to you. It is easy to mock, or throw brash words around. When I see that happening, I know you are hurting. In my mind's eye I see you twirling and flailing in circles being unable to pick a spot to sit down and rest. Well......find a place and just stop for a moment. Take a few slow breaths. Read his words again slowly and expect to see what God wants you to see. It's not easy, but I know it's possible.

I agree that not everything we were taught was a lie, such as verses that tell us to love one another, etc. Broad truths like that are good and true, obviously. But we need to remember TWI was built on a man-made theology inherited from various sources.

I'm glad Research Geek posted those thoughts here so we could take a few minutes and think about some of the points in that post.

I've selected just a few of his remarks to respond to:

"...twi realized that things had gone too far because people were leaving in droves, so they racheted rfr's changes back to a "kinder gentler" version and that is where they are now."

This reflects a popular belief that there was a "kinder gentler" version of the past TWI days to go back to. I don't know when that was. I think he should explain that statement.

"This time will be a real catharsis. Just hold fast to that which is good. But in the end, you should be better and stronger for it."

I agree. Each person needs to sort out what that "good" was and question EVERYTHING; start from scratch in my opinion.

"you still have a Godly calling and that ministry is directed towards other believers, so it functions best within a body of some kind."

This is an assumption of many people when they want to perpetuate Christian groups. This thinking was promoted by the Apostle Paul to build his organization. Think carefully about whether or not this is what you want to do.

"For example, there are a whole lot of people in twi who know things are wrong and have decided to try to change it from within."

In my view, they would need to know what to change TWI into. What would that be?

The fact is, the nature of a group like that is a closed system and the foundation is rooted too deep to change.

Disassociation from the group and starting a new life is better.

There IS A WHOLE WIDE WORLD out here and plenty of chances to meet fabulous people and learn things and ENJOY LIFE.

Peace,

Charlene

Interesting poll. I studied these in college. Looks like this site is not very effective in reaching people that came to TWI in recent years. Just filled with people who are ....ed and feel their 20s and 30s were stolen in the 70s and 80s.

I think it's a gross misstatement to conclude that GSC is "Just filled with people who are ....ed and feel their 20s and 30s were stolen in the 70s and 80s."

I do think it's fair to say many people come here to sort through the years they spent in TWI and try to create meaning from their experiences and find understanding from them, not to mention find out facts about certain events in TWI and teachings propounded by TWI.

Please try and refrain from making sweeping generalizations about the people who post here.

Thanks,

Charlene

On another hand, an offshoot might be good, since if people just left they're probably old. Not a lot of time to sort things out. They might be happier that way.

Don't kid yourself.

Does he have any biblical schooling other than TWI??? Answering letters sent to VPW is not exactly a place where one is challenged to consider his theology.

I just wonder if he's ever sat at the feet of scholars to debate or to learn?

If you Google his name, you'll find some info. I don't know whether he pursued a degree in Bible studies.

Hi: As I said I want to know more about him and if he is a Way Corp?

John Schoenheit was a grad of the 6th Corps and a member of the research team from Aug. 1983 (at least) - Oct. 1986 when he got fired for writing the paper on adultery. I worked with him on the research team at HQ from Aug. 1984 - Aug. 1986. His focus was Old Testament history and Oriental customs. He taught classes on these topics to the Way Corps.

He often answered research-oriented letters from people who wrote to VP or Walter Cummins, the head of the research dept. Often his answers were published in the Way Magazine. He headed up the trip to the Bible Lands in Oct. 1985. His approach to interpreting the Bible is much the same as VPWs - fundamentalist in nature.

Lynda - Charlene,

I have tried to have that conversation with them for years.

I'm sure you have and you're not the only one. I tried in 1987 before all this got rolling...in my living room in Florida I explained to JAL that verses like II Peter 1:20,21 were not sure-fire truths for me, as far as referring to Genesis to Revelation like VPW said. (there's a thread here about that). But JAL was too wound up with his ideas to hear me...he said he didn't have time for all that sort of research. I clearly remember this because it shocked me so much. For me, I could not run around saying, Thus saith the Lord, if I wasn't sure just what the Lord said.

Within the last year on the Way Corps site when I reminded him of that talk we had, he told me he doesn't remember that conversation since he's had so many conversations with so many people.

To JAL I say, with no animosity: Why not lose the business model that you learned from twi? Instead of thinking of people as your followers, and as your "contributors," why not think of them simply as fellow followers of Jesus Christ? Then, why not simply walk away from the drama and start fresh (but not with the same old business plan that you carried from twi into CES/STFI)? It's clearly not working, and people are being hurt as a result.

There is great freedom in walking through life with your spiritual "eyes" watchful for ways to help others right where you are at any given moment. That would be a lot more satisfying and take a lot less energy than fighting over an organization that's been embroiled in power struggles for years.

My suggestion to you would be to let it go. Just be you, go where you feel inspired to go, touch those people who cross your path, and let them see God's love and grace in you. You might be amazed at how much good you can do without an audience or an organization. Why not quit campaigning for followers? Isn't that how CES started?

To the "contributors" of CES/STFI: Why not step back, take a breath, and ask yourself why you're involved in that group. Really, why? While you've been merrily "contributing," the people who run that outfit have been doing their level best to bite and devour each other. Over what? Political BS, looks like to me. Trust me, there is life for Christians without limiting yourself to one little group. If it were me, I wouldn't jump off the STFI bandwagon and onto the new JAL bandwagon. Step back. Take a breath. God is with you. You don't need any "leader" to show you what to do.

This is my take on the whole mess in a nutshell: It's more important to be loving than to be right, or "accurate." Love, real love for God and your fellow humans, will always lead you to do the right thing and get you to the right place at the right time. A pseudo-academic obsession with being "right" or "accurate" will only lead to inflated egos and neverending verbal battles. Which path sounds more enjoyable?

My suggestion for everyone involved in STFI, from its "leaders" to its "contributors," is this: Try getting off Accurate Avenue and take a ride on Freedom Freeway. Just try it. If you don't like it, if you feel you can't function without a "group" to lead or follow, then by all means start one or find one. But before you do that, why not give it a try?

Welcome to GSC, Beanaboos! There are lots of topics here that we hope you find helpful.

As far as Childrens Fellowship goes, I helped coordinate some of the fellowships for children during the 1970s and early 1980s in California and Florida and at Childrens Camp during Corps week. I remember some of it was fun but the doctrine, as many of us feel now, was dogmatic and repressive, to say the least.

VPW used to say when a child was born to TWI parents, "That is how we get 'em into the Way ministry!" He said this on the video "Changed" made in 1977, and although he laughed and the audience laughed, he meant it, believe me. IMO, that thinking is terrible (again an understatement). For many, children were a means to TWI's end: getting the Word (VP's interpretation of the Bible) over the world. Obviously, that is a repulsive idea to those of us who finally woke up and left and took our kids with us!

I left TWI in 1987 and can tell you that Wordwolf's run-down of events is very good. There are some other topics about childrens fellowship here that I think you can find when you use the Search feature. Also, the Writing Machine web site that cheranne mentioned is very good, too!

Wishing you the best!

Charlene

WARNING: I will use the word "YOU" in the writing below. If the shoe fits put it on, if it doesn't pass it to the next guy. Don't take it personally. But take it for what applies to yourself or others you know. This is not meant to offend any one person. I'm thankful Waysider had put this in. I also am quite aware that this was in 06. Great! What has changed??? Well, here I go again. Stirring up a bee hive.

You know, for the past six to eight years that I have been out of TWI, I have heard people give VPW a lot of shxt about stealing other's works and taking credit for it. Did you notice one of the required reading books was "How to enjoy the Bible". Have you ever read it? It is like reading Shakespere on steroids. Did you ever realize by having you read it, he was showing you how to take what others had done and bring it into present application? He never hid his sources. He worked them until they were his own.

I don't really care how many women he screwed or didn't or what he plagerized. Oral Roberts was a seasoned veteran as was Billy Graham. But they didn't reach me or you for that matter. Dr. Wierwille reached you with his ministry. Good bad or indifferent. Whether or not you stood one day or 20 years, no one else thought you were worth being reached. If you think it was an accident that you did not join Billy Graham's Crusade, well what are you doing now? Are you working with Billy Graham or Oral Roberts???? No! Nothing but bitching. Hell didn't you take the same Advanced Class I did? Don't you know what bitterness does to you spiritually? It will Fxxk you up!!!

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for the link you had. I got blessed. I found nothing but truth in it. I don't care how many used the Red Thread teaching before. For me that (1978) was the first time I heard it and I was on Freaking Fire!!! I probably signed up 5 people for the class because of those teachings and I'm proud I did. I saw God pull of some major miracles in my life and the lives of those I was able to reach. I survived 3 brain surgeries. I should be dead. No one wants to credit God for my survival or the fact that I dealt with it according to the Biblical principles taught, but that is what happened. And for years, I come in here to connect and all I see is absolute hate. Some of you must have thrown away your Bible when you tossed the collaterals.

I can understand you might be disgruntled enough to throw away the collaterals... I wouldn't do it...but I've known those who have....but why throw away your Bible also? Some of you use to know 200 plus verses in your mind. How many do you know today? Where's God in your life???

This concludes the YID editorial. Thank you and good nite.

Yid,

I realize you have been through a tramatic experience with the healings you mention and it seems that you feel deeply that the benefits you got from TWI are worth defending. That is your personal business. But when you come here and defend VP in such uninformed ways and dogmatic ways, I have to say I am worried about your frame of mind. Where you are getting these ideas about how great VP was regardless of his behavior? Ideas that are so hurtful not only to yourself but to others (to say the least)as many of these posts show. I hope you are reading them all. There is much to learn from people here at GSC who have suffered and yet have learned lessons that are helpful to others.

Now, I'm going to offer a section from a book that you probably will not like but give it a chance. Think about it. I am posting it because it speaks to the kind of person I used to be - yes, I was a fanatic for many years in TWI - and the kind of thinking I see in your post seems fanatical to me. It is not reasoned, but is driven by an emotional dogmatic reaction to facts and testamonies about VPW and his writings here that you find hard to accept. I suspect that they are hard to accept because if you accept them, you have to give up something you cherish.

That thing you cherish is your apparent belief in the value of VP's interpretations of the Bible, many of which WERE COPIED, and to give that up is hard. I know, I did it.

But your life is worth more than defending their propaganda. You can ignore what I have to say and what others here say if you want, but if you do, maybe at some point you will re-read what we've said and reconsider that what you cling to in your post is indefensible and that how you struck out at us was reckless, with accusations like, "I come in here to connect and all I see is absolute hate." To me, since you do not even know me, this is not only insulting, to me it is awful. Do you understand that by saying that, you are accusing me and everyone else of being hateful in the posts we've written. If you've seen hate here, you should qualify where it came from. I would hope you might consider apologizing to those of us here who try hard to be helpful and honest. Let's try and steer clear of fanaticism of any kind, which is driven by negative emotions and shows up in statements like that one you made.

This excerpt is from a book called, The True Believer – Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer. Harper & Row Publishers, Inc. N.Y. 1951.

"It goes without saying that the fanatic is convinced that the cause he holds on to is monolithic and eternal – a rock of ages. Still, his sense of security is derived from his passionate attachment and not from the excellence of his cause. The fanatic is not really a stickler to principle. He embraces a cause not primarily because of its justness and holiness but because of his desperate need for something to hold on to. Often, indeed, it is his need for passionate attachment which turns every cause he embraces into a holy cause.

The fanatic cannot be weaned away from his cause by an appeal to his reason or moral sense. He fears compromise and cannot be persuaded to qualify the certitude and righteousness of his holy cause. But he finds no difficulty in swinging suddenly and wildly from one holy cause to another. He cannot be convinced but only converted. His passionate attachment is more vital than the quality of the cause to which he is attached." (p84)

Good luck to you,

Charlene

Did you notice one of the required reading books was "How to enjoy the Bible"

If you've been paying attention you would have noticed that the requirements constantly changed.

In fact, when I took Keys to Research live in 1974, we were told to buy "How To--"in the bookstore but to only read the parts that agreed with PFAL.---"The rest is off."

I don't really care how many women he screwed

Would you feel differently if your sister or mother or wife had been one of them?

And it's not only the women he, himself, abused but the women who were abused by his proteges as well.

or what he plagiarized.

You should. It's illegal, unethical and speaks loudly about the sinister side of his character. Look closely at how, in introducing this "sermon", he leads you to assume he is the author. He could have easily given a tip-of-the-hat to Oral Roberts.

no one else thought you were worth reaching.

That's a mighty big presumption on your part.

what are you doing now?

Well, I'm NOT wasting my time building a defense for a substance abusing, sexual predator who thought he was above the laws of the land.

I probably signed up 5 people for the class because of those teachings and I'm proud I did.

Have you actually spent any time examining any of the discussions of the materials offered here, such as "Actual Errors in PFAL"?

Be not fooled. What waysider is saying is important and critical to our understanding of the history of TWI. One thing I want to add: many of us while we were "in" TWI mistakenly gave thanks to VPW and his group, TWI, for things and events for which we should have given thanks only to God.

One of the major challenges in leaving TWI is untangling the big parts of our experiences during our association with TWI as if it were a gigantic ball of string. For me, this ball of string consisted of God (my perception of God), the gospel accounts of Jesus, the ministry of Paul, The Bible as a whole, VPW's beliefs, his personality, his strengths and his weaknesses, and overall moral conduct including his interpretation or misinterpretation of the Bible; TWI as an organization; the actions of followers trained by VPW; the overall context of VPW's belief system, which is Fundamentalism; the aspects of cult behavior, etc. The list goes on. Until we do this work, we will continue to see people give VPW undeserved credit for many positive things in our lives that happened during the years we just happened to spend associated with TWI. For all we know, they would have happened without TWI. There is a God outside TWI, after all.

One of VPW's strengths was his ability to motivate people and get them to equate his organization with that of the Apostle Paul's. This was done indirectly and yet anyone who was around for any length of time got the hint. I do not remember a time when VPW deterred us from claiming his teachings and ministry saved our lives. IMO, rather than let that go on, he should have corrected this thinking and directed us to say God saved our lives, not him or his organization.

This kind of revelation is some of the more embarrassing aspects of being involved in the org.

I agree. It's mortifying (understatement) to admit I followed such a person...

...."biblical research" became wierwille-endorsed interpretations of scripture."

I think there is plenty of evidence to show this did not "become;" it was from the start...

Fantastic list, Geisha779. Thanks for adding this insighful information. It is an important distinction to repeat...that faith and education are distinctly different, and as far as reading is concerned, there is no end. And as far as interpretations of what "faith" is, or what "Christianity" is, there is no end either it seems...

As a friend of mine recently said, "Scholarship does not lead one to God. And one's faith does not justify unethical behavior especially when one is exploiting the minds and lives of young [or any aged] people." He said that in reference to many ill effects of TWI's and it offshoots' efforts to promote and indoctrinate their beliefs as The Truth.

BTW - I'm currently reading, The Gutenberg Elegies - The Fate of Reading in the Electronic Age by Sven Birkerts. Let's hope reading lives on!

Cheers!

my opinion of *mr* cummins sinks lower from where it was before..

oh well..

oh well...he was just doing his job...

Hi everyone,

This is Charlene (Bishop) Edge, former Research Team member 1984-1986 (Aramaic projects). The discussion Skyrider cites can be found at this GSC topic, "what scripture refers to" at:

VPW research methods

A little more of the story behind the making of the Aramaic Interlinear (not the Concordance published in Aug. 1985, but the Translation which came afterwards):

I seem to be a good example of a practice often conducted at TWI: "being hired not on the basis of ability" but of commitment to the org. Invited to be on the research team from 1984-87, I came on board with no college degree, no formal training in research methods or languages of the texts, other than in-house Aramaic classes taught to the Way Corps and some Aramaic tasks I had helped with over the years. But to say I was competent to actually produce a translation of the N.T. is ridiculous.

When Joe Wise, who WAS competent and had earned his degree from the Univ. of Chicago in Near Eastern Studies, and who was responsible for the translation was fired from that task in 1986 with the reason being "too academic," I went to W@lter Cum@ins and asked about this, greatly dismayed and upset about this out-of-nowhere decision (this is an understatement). W. Cum@ins said it was LCM's "order." I asked who would finish it! He then looked at me and in complete seriousness said, "I was thinking you could finish it." After I recovered my composure from a hearty laugh, I realized he was not laughing. I had to explain I did not have the expertise to handle such a task, I had no training in such a complicated undertaking as translating! The odd and shocking thing was, W. Cum@ins had known me since 1970 and was very familiar with my skill level. It seems that competency was not always favored over assumed loyalty to TWI.

After I resigned, another Corps grad came in off the field to finish the interlinear. Today, he continues VPW's research methods and teachings, etc. and runs a TWI offshoot in the D.C. area...

All of the above posts contain very good advice, in my view. This discussion is very important for a lot of people.

Tazia, I could not agree more that offshoot groups cannot provide the breathing space many people need to escape "TWI-think." You mentioned one of the major ways I also conducted my post-TWI journey of growth - education, including work by Bart Erhman.

Thinking back on what I needed most during my first few months after leaving TWI, I see I primarily needed someone to just listen to me. I needed a safe place to speak my mind about what happened to me and why I left, etc. In 1987 (ancient times before the internet), I had only a couple of people I trusted with my heart, and they were geographically far from me. Counselors were pretty in the dark about cult like fundamentalists groups then, although there was one group called Fundamentalists Anonymous but I didn't contact them. I trusted few people. I for sure knew an TWI offshoot group was not my remedy (the first big one was starting up and run by John Lynn, etc.) Why? Because they weren't addressing the reasons why I left (research related.)

I'd just add this note to those thinking of leaving or fresh out - Give yourself a chance to be alone with your thoughts, go for long walks, and if you are inclined, keep a journal to sort out those thoughts, too. Your time alone with the Creator, no matter what you call it or don't call it, is your own.

Don't think for a minute that our spiritual, intellectual, and emotional lives are not our own to cherish - they are. Luckily we still live in a country that offers a way to enjoy these freedoms.

Lastly, I'll offer this quote that, although gloomy-sounding, may shed light on this topic:

"We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can make for us, which no one else can spare us." Marcel Proust

Peace and best wishes,

Charlene Lamy (Bishop) Edge

Former Way Corps 2

I think the problem lies in the TWI carryover mindset. Money is used to promote the product. People are not hired on the basis of ability. People are hired who buy into the whole mindset with the whole idea that they can be trained to perform a job (the way they want it done, not the way it probably should be done). Anyone, anyone, anyone who has questioned the methods or suggests that there might be a better way is shut out.

Sounds like a TWI carry over to me, too. I am a prime example of this "being hired not on the basis of ability" but of commitment to the org. Invited to be on the research team from 1984-87, I came on board with no college degree, no formal training in research methods or languages of the texts, other than in-house Aramaic classes taught to the Way Corps and some Aramaic tasks I had helped with over the years. But to say I was competent to actually produce a translation of the N.T. is ridiculous.

When Joe Wise, who WAS competent and had earned his degree from the Univ. of Chicago in Near Eastern Studies, was fired from that task in 1986 with the reason being "too academic," I went to W@lter Cum@ins and asked about this, greatly dismayed and upset about this out-of-nowhere decision (this is an understatement). W. Cum@ins looked at me and in complete seriousness said, "I was thinking you could finish it." After I recovered my composure from a hearty laugh, I realized he was not laughing. I had to explain I did not have the expertise to handle such a task, I had no training in such a complicated undertaking of translating! The odd and shocking thing was, W. Cum@ins had known me since 1970 and was very familiar with my skill level. It seems that competency was not always favored over assumed loyalty to TWI.

After I resigned, another Corps grad came in off the field to finish the interlinear. Today, he continues VPW's research methods, etc. and runs a TWI offshoot in the D.C. area...

Wow.

Thanks again to taxicab for providing the link to the Rachel Maddow report, which includes an interview with the author of, Crazy for God. It speaks to a major problem in this country - as I see it - of overzealous evangelizing and often reckless and offensive application of Bible verses to current-day events. This sort of interpretation denies the historical context of the verses and drags them into the 21st century, which in my view, is inappropriate.

Another example appeared in the newspaper, USA Today, this past Monday, Oct. 12, 2009, on page 11A by Tom Krattenmaker (yeah, I collect such articles) titled, "And I'd like to thank God Almighty." It covers the story of Tim Tebow's promotion of his brand of Christianity to the point of disrespecting other players' (and anyone else's) beliefs. "Tebow does his missionary trips to the Philippines under the auspices of his father's Bob Tebow Evangelistic Association. The Tebow organization espouses a far-right theology. Its bottom line: Only those who assent to its version of Christianity will avoid eternal punishment. The ministry boldy declares, 'We reject the modern ecumenical movement.'"

Unfortunately, until more Christians become aware of the history of own their religion (including an understanding of the multitude of beliefs floated in the first couple of centuries after the reports of Jesus's death and resurrection) and how these various Christ-focused movements influenced each other, this sort of religious bigotry will continue. It's the stuff "Holy wars" were/are made of. It's the grist for dividing humanity, not uniting or comforting people. Plenty of information is available. Public libraries are a good place to start. And it wouldn't hurt to become a little more educated about other religions, too. We might be surprised at what things they have in common.

I also say let's pay more attention to making our behaviors more productive and caring of others and be less concerned about promoting many "beliefs" we can never prove one way or another anyway, no matter what our religion - or lack of it - might be.

Cheers and enjoy your day. It's a gift to be alive, isn't it?

Okay, mstar1, do you want to bring the coat hangers? George, the marshmellows? Bramble the graham crackers? I'll bring the Hershey bars...