penworks

I always feel the need for this quote at this point...

"First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me."

- Hans Niemoller (translated)

I love this quote, WW. From what I've observed over the years it seems people don't speak up and/or aren't willing to, regardless of the kind of group -- religious or political or even in business --until they are directly negatively affected. It usually has to get personal. When it is, they know for themselves without a doubt that something is wrong and are willing to take a risk on their own behalf. Otherwise, we like the status quo usually. But I'm no psychologist...

It was true for me ...it took a personal experience to pry me out of my "tunnel vision" before I left twi. Until then, I did not inquire as to why others "left" or "tripped out." I accepted the party line that they were decieved or possessed. I'm ashamed of that.

Then it was my turn, then I found myself in a position of thinking something was unjust. Then it was worth fighting for myself and what I thought was good.

Peace. And Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Penworks

Speaking of Karl, if you read the whole chapter that the exerpt is quoted from, he does the best job that I've seen describing the wackiness and lack of actual research that went into the whole athletes of the spirit concept. There's a presentation that he describes involving not only Martindale, but Wierwille and Cummins as well, that includes the infamous "there's gotta be a text that says such-and-such" statements, bending definitions, out-of-context interpretations, and in short a great illustration overall of how "research" in TWI was a self-serving bunch of bullsh--

I agree Karl does do a good job with that. And I like your recounting of the often-heard: "...infamous "there's gotta be a text that says such-and-such" statements, bending definitions, out-of-context interpretations."

I call that scriptural gymnastics which is used to prove whatever you want.

IMO, the term "research" was defined in twi according to what vpw believed, for the most part, and whatever he thought should be "ackrit" (that's a literal translation according to usage of the word "accurate"). From what I've seen, most fundamentalists who try and prove inerrancy do this, too, to one degree or another.

IMO inerrancy is an erroneous way to approach the texts in between those 2 covers. But that's another topic...

Cheers!

WordWolf: That's interesting, considering he did a 2-part taped teaching at one point to try to

insert the athletic terminology into Ephesians 6.

Yes, it IS interesting. They were each doing their own thing in their own way.

I suspect by the time lcm was "mantled", he had become totally delusional. Every thought that jumped into his okie skull, he thought was divinely inspired...who needs a research department when you're the mog!

In hindsight, it seems obvious that Martindale was a dull bulb who lost his mind...Vic really should have known better than to pick this guy...really.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

I think more than one of Penworks's questions were rhetorical in nature.

Yes they were.

Just to chime in a little as one who was at HQ during the time prior to and during the first few productions, and I was on the Research Team then to boot. LCM never, I repeat never, checked any of his so-called "research" he said went into that production with anyone I know of on the team at that time, including Walter Cummins, the head of the Research Department. Not that it would've made much difference, IMO. Anyhow, we were on "the other side of the hall" literally and figuratively. Whew. Some of us wanted no part of what he was doing. Some of us did more than roll our eyes about it. It was VERY strange being there at that time...

This thread raises an old issue for me.

In 1985 I went on the Bible Lands Tour with twi followers. At the time I was on the Research Team. I remember on the boat ride we took across the "Sea of Galilee," I wondered about the difference between what an organization like ours was doing, really, and what Jesus did back in his time. Were we really doing something good like he probably did? Christ certainly didn't run an organization like ours, if the gospels are any reflection of what went on. What do we think we're doing with such a set up like ours?

I didn't have the nerve then to voice my growing doubts about running a so-called Christian ministry in the 20th century largely based on what Paul sort of did, not what Jesus did.

What is the real need for any group like twi in the world? What is the point of making money off of a bible class? Who is benefiting?

Less confrontational, kind & gentler....yakkity smakkity... ...so what?

When Pawtucket interviewed me for "Episode Seven" a few years ago, one of things that I brought up was that it wasn't so much whether "leadership" actually interfered in peoples' lives, but that they thought that they could.

No matter how "nice" they act, do they still reserve the right to stick their noses in?

Oakspear has raised a serious point - about other people thinking they have the "right" to pry into your business. I happen to think it is important to ask ourselves some questions like:

1) Just what is the point of allowing anyone to pry into your life under the guise of being your "spiritual leader?"

2) Who do they think they are?

3) By what authority do they act?

4) Why would you allow that type of control over you?

Make no mistake. There is no authority but your own that allows another to do that, at least in this country.

Peace,

Penworks

Cunningly, they got US to destroy our personal property! Told us to get rid of things that held us back - that harbored devil spirits - we should forget those things that are behind.

What they really wanted to destroy was our individuality.

Yes, that's true for me and I regret now that I no longer have some books, papers, old photos of me growing up, etc. For anyone who doesn't know how this worked here's my experience: A couple of verses used to motivate and justify this destruction [of course a verse was usually quoted to justify everything] were:

Colossians 3:9, 10 "Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man which is renewed in the knowledge after the image of him that created him."

This was made to mean the knowledge of the Bible (as taught by twi of course) and the version of the Bible as we have with the canon in KJV today. TWI never pointed out that this canon, much less the KJV, wasn't even defined much less in existence when this verse was written...but who cares about tedious details like that? <_<

Another doozy: II Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new."

Since I was convinced by vpw to believe these verses came directly from gawd almighty, then as any good little fanatic would do, I tried to wipe out all evidence of my identity prior to taking PFAL. After all I was a "new creature in Christ" and who I was "in the flesh" didn't matter anymore.

Granted, there's no doubt there's value in changing bad habits, but it's a shame people fall for this sort of manipulation that breeds extreme behavior all across Christianity and other religious groups, too. Lots of creativity gets squelched, to say the least...and it can take years to recuperate from that destruction of identity.

Lucky for us we live in a country where we CAN have the chance to recuperate and where the gov't (so far) cannot force us to adopt any particualr religious beliefs. I've been to some countries where a religion is so ingrained in the culture, it's unthinkable to question it.

Let's KEEP our chance to have separate church and state issues (boy how did I get on this rant?) Speak up when and where you can.

peace,

penworks

Even if today's twi is less confrontational........

* How does one ignore wierwille's legacy of lies and plagiarism?

* How does one embrace twi's plethora of pathetic policies as "spiritual leadership?"

* How does one uphold "the law of believing" as twi's cornerstone of sound doctrine?

* How does one get any "warm fuzzies" without realizing the self-serving elitism lording over them?

* How does one, openly and objectively, walk back into the confines of a cult?

How? Denial. I used to be the queen of denial (right, bad pun) so I know, although I did not return to twi after leaving. That thought never crossed my mind.

The acid never wore off?...Could be. It seems that Lynn believes in the snow on the gaspumps story. When God spoke audibly to VP F *****g Wierwille...Lynn is now quoting this story as his continuing mission...knowing the word as it hasn't been known since the first century, blah blah blah...

That story was the HOOK that sucked people into the cult!...God spoke to this guy!!! It was a done deal after that...and now Lynn is trying to revive it...and I say it's about time someone called bulls **t on him.

...and the sad thing is that he probably believes it! There are still plenty of people who live their lives believing twi doctrine...and that's part of the tragic legacy that twi leaves behind...

Agreed!

For anyone interested, here's my recent comment to John on his blog at the Way Corps site:

John,

We've known each other since 1970 when I was just a kid overtaken with the idealism of The Way at ECU. With due respect, I am stunned, in a way, that someone who thinks as much as you do, has decided to laud VP's works and methodology as you still do. I still feel that the conversation you and I had in my living room in 1987 after I left the Research Dept and HQ was when I had my chance to pry into your thinking...when I explained that I couldn't go around and say "Thus saith the Lord" since I didn't know 100% what the Lord might have said. You interpreted my concerns as being "burned out on twi" but that was your misunderstanding of the reasons I had for coming to that conclusion. I know how much I don't know about the history of text and that trying to create a relationship, as they say, with God based on ancient writings is futile for me. Oh well...it's clear you are a train without stops.

I'm not so foolish to think I can change your mind about what you believe. I just want to say take care and in your most quiet moments, try and consider that maybe what you are so sure of just isn't so certain after all...

Peace,

Charlene

IMO it's ludicrous to think Ralph or anyone could portray John in a misrepresented way. All one needs to do is read John's own letters/statements to understand where he is coming from. And those are posted EVERYWHERE because he promotes himself so much.

As I see it, Ralph told his story as he experienced it and because I was at HQ during that time, I can say I have no argument with his take on things. The whole system caved in because it was doomed from the start. A system built on sand can't stand [wishful thinking on my part...] Anyway, read any decent book on fundamentalist/cult movements and you'll find they are all based on fear. fear. fear. And fear will burn itself out eventually [more wishful thinking]. Who needs it?

Now, moving on to more important issues...let's see...I think questions for each of us include what do we want to do in this world? Make it a better place? Love others? Understand and have compassion for different people's points of view and religious beliefs? Protect first amendment rights? Be good citizens? Tell our stories as honestly as we can? Get educated about what twi actually is and the belief system it perpetrates? Mmm...lots to ponder...

Peace,

penworks

View Karen's outstanding talk on the TED web site:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/karen_a...compassion.html

mmm...I used to think I could control my thoughts as described by twi, but then when I started meditating, it was amazing to see fast my "thoughts wandered" off of what I was trying to concentrate on...just a thought <_<

that doesn't rule out the human ability to change our minds from one thought to another and decide which one to act upon...

other stray thoughts on this topic: I remember wondering, when I started to question doctrines, that if "the adversary" could so easily deceive me like twi claimed, then the fact I was "standing with the household" wasn't providing much protection from him...

...and therein lies the crux of the matter...twi deceived people into thinking they were serving the lord when in reality, they were not...why is that? Because it was at the twig level...where people who exhibited Christian behavior (love, compassion, caring, giving, extending yourself to help someone)...THESE qualities that others saw SUCKED PEOPLE IN...sucked them into believing destructive doctrines, and led them into being used by a self serving cult. Twi was parasitic in the way they used the genuine Christian behavior of their followers to lure in others...lure them into coughing up their MONEY to twi...and leading them to believe things that put them into subjugation.

Perhaps when a former follower of twi realizes how they have been used, they try to rationalize it by saying "they served the lord because of what they believed and how they behaved themselves"...but the bottom line is that they fed the beast...plain and simple. You cannot serve both God and mammon...and twi was certainly being served by it's followers.

I agree with much of what you wrote here and have a further comment to make which may be a little off topic, but here goes:

My comments below are observations I've had over the years about this part of what you wrote: "... people who exhibited Christian behavior (love, compassion, caring, giving, extending yourself to help someone)... "

It seems to me these qualities are not exclusively "Christian" at all. I've observed them shown by many people from many different faiths and people who have no religion at all. Some of my best friends exhibit this behavior and they include Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, and atheists. I think Christianity has hijacked them due to the cherry-picked verses in the gospels that portray Jesus in such ways. But he was not a Christian!

When I take a look at some of Paul's epistles, on which much of modern day Christianity was founded, for example, I often see vindictiveness for people who don't think like he thinks they should, I don't see compassion. TWI did the same thing to justify their terrible behavior towards anyone who disagreed with them, left the ministry, or of course those "awful critics" whose ideas they never fairly debated in public.

I agree it's a terrible shame that so much harm was and is done by equating "ministry" in the bible with The Way Ministry. Other so-called Christian groups give the same sort of interpretation regarding their organizations. It's high time these groups underwent a radical change of some kind...but too bad - the fact is that to maintain competing groups like these organizations, we all know there usually has to be an "us vs. them" mentality.

Was Wierwille really concerned with unearthing "The Truth"?

Is there any real evidence to suggest so?

So far, it's been noted he brought in Bishop Pillai to teach Renewed Mind (not a Biblical concept in the form it is presented in TWI) and Oriental customs as they supposedly related to Biblical times. (Also a subject that bears scrutiny)

Any other examples of how he actively sought the assistance of non-TWI people to aid him in his effort to present "The Truth"?

Well, there are lots of topics here at gsc I think, that mention people like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, etc. Actively seeking their assistance is an interesting way of putting it. I think he looked for people to "back up" what he was teaching. During my Way Corps training in 71-73, he brought in an archeologist to "prove" there was "proof" of Bible events found in the ground of Israel, etc. He used tapes of exorcisms at the Advanced Class that illustrated and backed up his teachings on devil spirit possession. There's also Lamsa, of course, who he invited to HQ and he backed up VP's belief that Aramaic was the language the Bible was written in. IMO, there's no real proof for that claim, although lots of people believe it. That's all that comes to mind just now...

I wonder what VP was really searching for. "The Truth" about what? He convinced me there was no truth found anywhere about anything outside the covers of the Bible. Yikes.

peace,

penworks

Sadly the "renew your mind" line went from a good thing of getting back to a calm understanding of our beliefs as a way to focus to what we all got tired of hearing which loosely translated is "think what I tell you to think and quit arguing with me"

So, was I the only one who's eyes glazed over and had trouble paying attention to the BS & self- rightousness when I was told that? Is it any wonder I was kicked out?

No, you were not the only one with attention that wandered from the tiresome propaganda...

The notion that people can apply this verse is more complicated than I imagined when I took the Renewed Mind class at TWI when I was 19 yrs. It seems to me that TWI used the verse Romans 12:2 (and hundreds more) to justify the claim that by accepting twi teachings, which was equal to thinking "the word," a person would prove the will of God in this world:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." etc. etc.

This version of this verse, which is a version of a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy etc., is one that most scholars believe was originally written by Paul, unlike other epistles that seem as if he was author, such as the pastoral epistles.

IMO, Paul had something in mind when he wrote this verse, but it's not clear to me what he was referring to, but the people he was writing to probably understood him.

IMO "the world" is a vague term. It's hard to know what he meant since he lived in a vastly different culture than mine --- and a very long time ago: about 2,000 years ago. At any rate, he was often telling people what to do [note: if you believe the bible is the word of God that was sort of dictated to the writers, then I guess that what I have to say doesn't mean anything to you. We'll just agree to disagree on that point].

My point is that TWI wanted us to apply this verse, like many many more, to our modern-day situations without our knowing how or when to do so. Oh, yeah, I forgot. Our spiritual leaders would tell us when and how. Like, telling us that a new person in our fellowship who was asking questions all the time... well, he's "of the world," he's not hungry for the Word, he just wants to argue, so cross him off your list of referrals and don't waste God's time on him.

If I'm going to renew my mind to this verse, what do I identify as "the world"? It sometimes became a matter of shunning things like participating in Halloween, listening to pop music, etc. But then it got confusing when we were supposed to put God's word in culture, too. How would I know when I was really not conforming to the world but somehow re-making the world by re-interpreting it, getting God's Word in it, into the culture, blah blah blah. It became very confusing when I stopped to think about it. So I didn't think about it. I did not really do that until about 15 years into the ministry. Yikes. Then I left.

IMO, this verse also assumes we are sort of like blank slates that can be written on and changed. It only addresses the mind. I have nothing against changing my mind in an effort to be more loving, more patient, etc. But clearly this dictate from Paul does not consider emotions, the complex nature of the brain, concepts like nature vs. nurture, etc.

To be fair, how could Paul address these things? Which is part of my point. I have found that this book, the Bible, [which is an anthology, which carries its own issues, as such] is rarely relevant to my life. I soul searched this question: What value is this ancient text to my daily life now? Well, if I cherry-pick some "positive" verses like ones about love that are used at weddings all the time, I feel good. But is that necessary? [i'll refrain from expanding on this].

Here's a link to a talk by someone who IMO has something to add to the conversation about behavior and what makes us the way we are:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/steven_...lank_slate.html

peace,

penworks

Ask Oldies (or Mike), penworks, but I think the line you just set apart in bold are Mike's words.

Oh, yes, I see that now. Looks like Mike's comment at the end...not RG's. Thanks :)

Wow. I'm surprised at Research Geek's comment from his above quote dated October 04, 2002:

"Dr not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done for anyone. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate."

Maybe Research Geek has changed his mind since then.

For me, that's an impossible claim to believe anymore.

peace,

penworks

I think one of the top 10 favorite phrases VPW popularized in twi was, "You have no friends when it comes to the Word." I believe "the Word" was defined by VPW, so if you disagreed with that you were WRONG.

When I left HQ in '87 after 17 years of involvement in twi, several people that I thought had been my closest friends, chose twi and its doctrines over remaining in touch with me...one told me to my face I was deceived by the devil.

But a few stood by me and are still my friends today.

Cheers!

penworks

A reliable source (IMO) within the last month told me they are back in the USA.

oops, Happy belated b/day, Socks. It's wonderful to "see" you again after all these years!

Sending peace, joy, and love your way today and every day,

Penworks

Nothing makes the whole Bible fit together ... the bible history has a very shady history ...

Silly TWI thought my research paper should be in GMIR ... it was just a rehash of Bullinger with a VPW variation (which made no sense ... except to distinguish him from Bullinger) ... and Rear hard or someone stole my intro for a SNS teaching, or did I steal it and he stole it from the same source, I forget. (I asked him and he said he never read my paper that he quoted almost verbatim)

THE Bible history is best studied with books penworks has suggested ... she researched and then went to college to find out what went wrong in her quest for TRUTH.

I respect that ... I came up with something without bothering to check academia ... but "THE BIBLE" is not what we were led to believe ... and if you want to bother with that line of inquisition, I'm pointing to her advice. (and she was second corps I think, if that helps ... )

Since I'm being referred to here, I thought I'd chime in.

Just to clarify: I returned to college post-twi to get a liberal arts education (the word "liberal" in this case does not refer to any political left wing stance or religious stance, but that's another topic). I did read lots of English literature and philosophy etc. that helped me think clearly and logically and exercised my critical thinking capacities. I earned a B.A. in English. I did not get a degree in early Church history or Semetic languages, etc.

I just like to read. I've read things pertaining to the history of the Bible, etc. during and after college.

For a good overview I'd recommend Karen Armstrong's The Bible - A Biography, and her A History of God. Also, for those interested in what interpretation of texts, including the Bible, involves, pick up a copy of A Short Introduction to Hermeneutics by David Jasper. Hermenuetics is just a fancy word to describe our understanding of the nature of texts and how we interpret and use them.

Happy reading/learning/living,

penworks

Great news! I'll be watching.

peace

I have been reading Bart Ehrman's works for a couple of years, and have been listening to his lectures. I have to say that I find little to disagree with him about, which has messed with my faith considerably. My faith was based largely on logic and facts that I found in TWI. Now that I've stepped outside the premises, I struggle with the lack of either in the face of historical evidence when combined with the largely dishonest approach to scripture that TWI embraced.

Now I understand why ignorance is bliss and why Christians are told to avoid certain things.

I would argue that ignorance is NOT bliss...ignorance has only hindered me in being a more fulfilled person or one who could better weigh options before making informed decisions. But I'm an obsessed reader and knowledge junkie so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Perhaps this will shed some light, although I can only speak for myself here...For me, reading about the history of Bible texts or any other texts considered sacred in the world is separate from what I feel is an internal spiritual life. I have come to the place that spirituality or "faith" in an unseen creator does not have to depend on knowledge from a book, any book, including the Hebrew scriptures or the diverse collection of documents in the N.T. or the Koran or any Buddhist writings or Shakespeare for that matter. If it did, we'd be in the soup.

Why? We don't have any originals and even if we did, what we'd have are originals of the Hebrew people's mythology (that is not a derogatory term) and the originals of letters in the N.T. to specific groups of people who understood them in a different context and culture than the one we live in. The events surrounding why they were written are long lost to us. In addition, they were understood by people with a world view vastly different than ours (one small example is that they thought the earth was flat) and so their meaning is not necessarily one we would relate to. But that's another huge topic...

For me, the more I explored different religions, the clearer it became that generally people from all cultures throughout time have been using religion as a way to express their understanding of a Creator, to record their perceptions of it, and not to define it accurately or know it completely (well, maybe Paul thought he was doing that but I'm not sure about his agenda). It's the extremists that have made the problems, made the US vs. THEM a problematic attitude about one's religion.

Karen Armstrong is a wonderful writer on this topic. Check out her work on Amazon, especially The Battle for God - The History of Fundamentalism.

So is Joseph Campbell, author of The Power of Myth. Of course, they are not writing from a "Christian" point of view, but from an historian's point of view, just as Bart Ehrman is doing about the history of N.T. texts - and where and how the canon was decided upon. But perhaps this post does not fit into this thread. If a person wants to stick with the Christian frame of reference, which includes that the Bible is God's Word and there's no other way to know Him (or It) than from the Bible and through Jesus Christ, then reading theologically-based works by Christians would be of more interest...

It seems to me that most religions are all pointing to the same star but from different directions. For me, it became important to understand how and why I came to take the Bible as the authority over anything else such as other religious writings, and more importantly, over what I knew was right inside myself.

In this process spanning 20 years since leaving twi, I feel I've gained a more appropriate view about the Bible and so appreciate it differently than I did while in twi. But I'm no scholar or expert. And I'm sure enjoying the journey post-twi.