penworks

That seems a valid and obvious point ... but such things were commonly overlooked i think ...

I remember some corps week teaching I think ... about gematria or something. It was where the letters had numeric values, and you could add the numbers up to come up with totals that supposedly had significance. But they used the Greek, while twi had been teaching the originals were in Aramaic.

So I asked someone smart I guess, but it was basically, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". No point in having to answer to clear contradictions.

People are more comfortable ust accepting that they have the answers than having to face such facts. Like vp when he mocked the one guy "I have the answer" ... so that guy was vpw.

I suppose one could say "all scripture" just meant all scripture, whether it had been written yet or not. But how it was determined to include some "scripture" and not other "writings" is not clear. VP's answer was simple ... if it was wrong, he'd tell us.

To my knowledge, VP did not publically question the cannon as it was in the KJV. During my Corps training were we did not question it. VP used the terms "scripture," "God's Word," "The Word of God," and "The Bible" interchangeably in my experience with twi.

I think we have to be careful about saying: "I suppose one could say "all scripture" just meant all scripture, whether it had been written yet or not." At the time the writer of this verse wrote this verse, it seems to me that he referred to certain documents that the readers of the verse were familiar with, which actually existed. If it would refer to anything "not written yet" who is to say which ones those would be? What would be the criteria for determining which ones they were?

Also, remember, the deciders of the cannon were people with their own assumptions, opinions, politics, etc. Most Christians have accepted the ancient decisions of Iranaeus, bishop of Lyons, and Origen, (an Egyptian teacher from the 3rd century) seemingly without question. There are lots of books on this topic which are easy to read and readily available, such as Beyond Belief by Elaine Pagels, professor at Princeton and others like Bart Ehrman's who wrote The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament. A good source containg many other documents left out of the OT and NT is The Other Bible, by Willis Barnstone.

Question for brideofjc's following comment:

There are many writiings that didn't make the grade as far as being of apostolic authorship etc., dates were wrong, such as letters claiming to have been written by an apostle, but they were penned after the apostle had been martyred. Many such letters or writings are called pseudepigrapha or "false writings"not that they are "false" in every sense of the word, but that the authorship that they are ascribed to is not accurate. The content could be very accurate. "

penworks: What is your criteria for determining "content" that is "accurate"?

Thanks T-Bone and Doojable ... much clearer now ...

Maybe I need a timeline ...

• 1984? lcm humiliates twi with AOS ... football player in tights with girlfriends
  
• 1986 POP and follow up rev meeting ... all sane people left (cuz that is when I left )
  
• 1987? people excommunicated just for reading the "devilish" adultery paper
  
• 1989 oath of allegiance to lcm as mogfart
  
• 199? lcm makes a deal ... becomes ceo of Home Depot
  
• 2002 GSC opens ... hundreds get possessed by reading posts ....
  
• 2008 v2p2 starts way corpse 2 ... the dead are alive now
  

then on the bottom side of the line ... when the splinter men branched of and started collecting their own abs

But anyway ... The Secret Agenda Society really revealed their roots were not in da wurhd when they chose obvious vicster error over any semblance of humility to reproof. It really was a den of iniquity, and they didn't want to give it up.

Vic at least built the web (of deceit) ... these current folks are just inherited it ...

I can help with a few of timeline items mentioned in this post, since I was at HQ:

April 23, 1986 - PoP read at Corps night (about 2 and 1/2 hrs.) in WOW Auditorium at HQ and off-site Corps on the field via dial-in phone-hook-ups

Oct. 23, 1986 - John S. fired at HQ

Nov 1986 - Clergy meeting at HQ

How do we get this topic moved to the Doctrinal forum? (good idea, AnotherDan). Although I really did not intend it as a doctrinal issue, more like a textual history issue, but some may interpret it as doctrinal...

That's the only sensible option in my view.

Unfortunately, the way many folks "rework" what was in PFAL is to glance at the King James or maybe crack open a Young's concordance for a cursory look.

Unless one tosses out Wiewille's made-up definitions of Greek and Hebrew words, his false assumptions and unwarranted leaps of illogic, his misrepresentations of what other Christians actually believe, and generally shoddy research skills, one isn't really "checking it for yourself".

"Keeping the fish and spitting out the bones" assumes that you can tell the difference between the fish and the bones.

Yeah, I considered "reworking everything" in 1986 when I resigned from the research team.

But that thought drove me nuts; I realized that could go on forever.

Then I thought "why spend all my life trying to correct VP? Besides, I didn't have the academic background for doing it anyway, I simply had just seen enough problems, flaws in his work, theology, etc. to sink a battleship and was sick of the fanatical fundamentalism twi promoted.

Then I thought, VP's biblical research methods and desire for world-domination had already taken 16 years of my life and I didn't think his work or his "cause" was worth a minute more. Nor were any offshoots.

Then I thought, I could instead invest my time and energy in my own education, develop my own talents, get a decent job, straighten out my life, etc.

So that last thought won out.

I often find myself asking questions about my faith, whether they be religious/spiritual questions relating to Christianity in particular, or philosophical questions relating to the existence of God or to His supposed attributes and actions in general. Or I find myself putting myself in the place of a follower of a different religion or the place of an agnostic or atheist, and play their role in what they would say, what their objections would be to my arguments for or against a certain subject, etc.

It sounds kind of funny, I know. But it's a good thing to question. It strengthens your faith and you learn something new about your faith as a result. :)

Does anyone else do this?

~Phil

Been doing this for years and years...it's an adventure!

Not sure what you mean by "your faith" though. I hold to no particular religious "belief system" anymore, but rather try to stay in touch with my intuition and act with compassion (not always successful, for sure) which is my way of describing a spiritual part of my life...

Have you checked out any books by Karen Armstrong who writes wonderful histories of religion? I highly recommend her work.

I'm beginning to loathe my memories of TWI more than I ever have.

This stuff got swept under the rug. Even once is too much. But it happened again and again.

No prayer, no memorial, no apologies. And this was supposed to be a church?

Instead, that elitist-ego-MOG mentality to cover his own a$$.

I'm gonna go pay some tribute time in the memorium threads...

Agree.

And IMO, Dontworrybehappy summed it all up.

brideofjc Posted Today, 07:25 PM

QUOTE(penworks @ Apr 28 2008, 01:41 PM)

One bit of info to add to this thread:

In '87 after I'd left HQ and was far far away, I told the leader of the first offshoot that unlike him, I wasn't comfortable with assuming that the keys to research, etc. that VP taught were right. For instance, I wondered what the word "scripture" really referred to in that verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, etc.

I told him that as far as I knew, the cannon of the Bible wasn't established at the time that verse was written so how could "scripture" in that verse refer to the whole Bible as we have it today? He said he didn't have time to do all that research...

That's one reason why I had a problem with "offshoots." So I went to college, read lots of books, and got a degree in English.

brideofjc

The Greek word simply means "writings" which would include OT and the new forming NT, even though they weren't calling it that yet.

penworks: That's my point. There was no NT yet. There was no Bible yet. Didn't VPW teach that this word "scripture" referred to the Bible? Seems to me his stance was that the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation was what the word "scripture" referred to here. Maybe I'm wrong...but I think he got this idea from another fundamentalist...

Well, my story is off this topic, so I'll save it for another time...

I found this web site and wondered who is running it? http://www.eternallyblessed.com/music.html

I recognize some of the musicians' names displayed on the Music/Audio page, but does anyone here know who is responsible for the site?

I read about this somewhere on this site before or else it is recorded in Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped. This is insideous beyond words. Does anyone know how it was investigated/reported? What year did this happen?

Cheers! It's a beautiful day here in sunny Florida for such a day.

Ditto to this by MountaintopCO:

"How could VPW have confronted those guys when he created them in his own image. He would have had to confront him self and that would have never happened. All VPW could do is criticize what he had created not the root of the cause…the creator, himself."

peace,

penworks

Ditto to this by shellon:

"I was now able to do whatever I wanted, whatever the hell that was. But it was mine!"

1987. It felt grand to be my own "cause" from then on...

peace,

penworks

One bit of info to add to this thread:

In '87 after I'd left HQ and was far far away, I told the leader of the first offshoot that unlike him, I wasn't comfortable with assuming that the keys to research, etc. that VP taught were right. For instance, I wondered what the word "scripture" really referred to in that verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, etc.

I told him that as far as I knew, the cannon of the Bible wasn't established at the time that verse was written so how could "scripture" in that verse refer to the whole Bible as we have it today? He said he didn't have time to do all that research...

That's one reason why I had a problem with "offshoots." So I went to college, read lots of books, and got a degree in English.

I talked with John S. in his home near HQ the day after he was fired. He was devestated as we all were, financially left hung out to dry, like R.D., his house was being watched, etc. and he recounted some of R.D.'s part in this story which we hear now in full on GSC in this interview. The extent of VP's covert activity apparently goes back to Van Wert days. We know now that the "lockbox" intimidation technique was the way it was all kept secret.

I agree with Paw that it is good to go back to these events and gain perspective. It is, however, sickening for me. VP and his trained puppets, L*M, etc. were and are sick sick sick people who've caused untold damage to hundreds of people. I feel sick thinking about all this...but thankful this interview was aired.

BTW - I was able to leave hq and twi not long after R.D...but that's another story.

Thanks Paw and Ralph. This would appear to serve the purpose of laying a groundwork for anyone wanting to know some of "what happened" in the final year or so of VPW's life and the basics of how Geer came to arriving on the Way's doorstep with the "Passing of the Patriach".

Couple things came to mind listening - one is that not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him, because he and I were in the same Corps together and I certainly never did, nor my wife. People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea.

Another is that Ralph has covered this period before, the information isn't new at all, and it's definitely not as if he's reinventing the past to somehow make himself appear better than he was or that he did anything he didn't. If memory serves, this is a pretty straightforward rendering of that period, for Ralph.

Lastly, RD IMO does not come across as a savior to the Way ministry, if anything he contributed to the demise of it's formal power structure by putting knowledge and information in the hands of people who otherwise wouldn't have had it. At the time it was messy and difficult, there was a lot of controversy as to how this information was getting out, meetings on the field, how things were being handled, or more correctly mishandled - but Ralph speaks truth about the immense need once things got moving past the initial stages to take stock and take some action on any number of things that were accumulating and being allowed to run rampant without any clear leadership from the Way Nash. "Yak" twig? More like "Hak" twig. I respect the people that were there, but it was near impossible to get any kind of answers - even communications - from the leadership at the Way druing the late 80's.

So this is if not "the other side of the story", then definitely "another side of the story". Anyone who challenges or disagrees is, I would assume, free to pony up with their own, if they have it. Otherwise it stands as stated.

Good audio by the way! was this a face to face, or done on the phone, or...?

Very well articulated, socks!

First, I'd like thank you for pointing out the following which also applies to my situation. I was in the 2nd Corps:

"...not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him ...People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea."

Second, I feel that RD's recounting of the events at HQ after the reading of PoP is a very good one. I was there.

Third, take it from me, it is not an easy task to revisit that time at HQ. It is very emotional and draining and takes a toll. It's not something I enjoy doing, that's for sure! I admire his calm, step-by-step account of each part of his story.

Peace,

penworks

I agree with "the third trunk leader" that HQ was a "zoo" after the reading of PoP. It was a terrible, hurtful, confusing time for many people, even if they had a way of keeping themselves distanced in their minds, which I tried to do. Friends turned against friends. Family turned against family. Paranoia was rampant. I was there. I remember.

penworks

rhino: "Whether it was done correctly and really added or subtracted ... I'll leave that answer to the scholars."

penworks: Agree. That's where biblical studies belong - with scholars who are trained and educated in that field of literature.

For people like me who are not, I then ask what those scholars' motives for doing it are, what their methods are, what their expectations are, and then I ask many other questions about the value of biblical research in modern times (and the money involved, the bible publishing industry, etc. but that's another story). But all this is just a hobby of mine...

peace,

penworks

I, too, am very glad this interview is available here. It provides a very important perspective and record of events that have impacted so many lives in such destructive ways. Thanks, Paw and thanks to you "third trunk leader" for posting it.

cheers!

penworks

Paw,

Thanks again for all your efforts here at GSC and most recently for the anniversary interview covering 86-89 events. That was an excellent idea and the "third trunk leader" did a very fine job! For me, he provided some missing puzzle pieces that have left me wondering for 21 years...

Love to both of you,

penworks

Seems to me that this thread is relevant to the current one on plagarism, so thought I'd bring it out of the dust bin of 2005.

peace,

penworks

Thanks, Paw, this is full of outstanding messages!

staying hungry,

penworks

I've seen this documentary, also. Since it was made, I understand Jesus Camp has been discontinued.

Newsflash: In our newspaper this morning I read that tonight, 4-12-08, "CBS' 48 Hours offers an intimate look at The Lord's Boot Camp, an interdenominational evangelical group in Merritt Island [Florida] that trains teen missionaries. The program premieres at 8:00 tonight on WKMG-Channel 6. The Lord's Boot Camp is a collaboration between the newsmagazine and Loki Films, makers of Jesus Camp, an Oscar-nominated documentary."

IMO, these camps take advantage of teens. Teens have underdeveloped brains that don't allow them to understand what they are really involved with. Because teen brains are not fully developed, they lack of the capacity to make decisions that reflect they understand the ramifications of their actions. This has been scientifically shown. Human brains are not fully developed until the early 20's.

IMO these teen camps and trainings are immoral and unethical. Period.

Edited by penworks.

T-bone said: Religious passion is a powerful force. TWI took advantage of that - yeah, ol' vp figured out how to harness that power...he got people to hitch their wagons onto his grand delusion - We're the only ones working for the one true God! Dat's riiiiiiight! He told me so...audibly!!!! The psychological entanglement wrought ever so subtly on followers will ratchet-up as one "ascends" the hierarchy of TWI. Sure, there was peer pressure. But that only reinforced the mindset drummed into "the truly committed ones" – on Corps Night, in Corps meetings, in the atmosphere of household public opinion…I bet just about any "significant" teaching to fall on the ears of those "dedicated to a lifetime of Christian service" were peppered with those "lovely ties that bind" – ideas that drive the barbed hooks deeper into the heart:

Where else are you going to go?

To walk out on God's ministry is to plunge into oblivion.

Who else is rightly dividing the Word?

Remember who taught you the Word.

You're to be especially good to the household.

Penworks says: Ditto. Anyone with an interest in how techniques are used to inculcate these ideas might want to check out some reading on cults, like Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. It is very thorough and easy to read. When I left twi in 1987 I sure wish a book like this had been around then...there were a few like Mind Benders and Snapping, but they're not as good, IMO.

I may sound like a broken record (and a book nerd) because I recommend this book on many different posts here at GSC, but hey - if you want to really understand something, it helps to do some in-depth reading that you can't get in short posts like these...

It's times like these when I wish I hadn't dragged all of my TWI stuff to the gehenna/city dump :(

On one hand I'm glad that crap isn't around my home, but I miss out on some of these discussions.

Well, Oakspear, you aren't missing much...IMO. These discussions are valuable to some, but to me they're a tangled web of sorting out a lot of messy and ill-conceived research. I think our time is better spent doing something else.

I think there are enough topics at GSC already to substantiate the fact the VP stole, borrowed, tweaked, misrepresented and otherwise contorted other people's Bible research. His zeal to prove something that cannot be proven (the Bible is the Word of God, the Bible is perfect, etc.) drove some of us crazy long enough...I think he missed the important fact that the scriptures are products from various cultures from various times for various reasons and offer various levels of various sorts of enlightenment, etc. (now that's a record for the number of times I've used the same word in one sentence). I think they've been made out to be something they were never intended to be.

I'll stop now... I'm not trying to disillusion anyone who still feels differently. My "beliefs" are not necessarily for everyone...I'm just sharing part of my own personal experience.

peace,

penworks