penworks

Yes, I remember it when it was built. How could I forget it? I was there opening night. Oh the drama.

It originally was supposed to have a research library in it but that got scrapped. I noticed huge paintings of VP in there on the wall, though.

I remember the Corps night we got locked in there to listen to Chris Geer spout his stuff he said that VP said that he said ...blah blah blah

I remember the gross Athletes of the Spirit performance on that high priced technical stage.

I remember the ... oh forget it.

There was a real reason why there were so few mature adults that bought into WayWorld dogma. A modicum of wisdom was all that was needed to decern the B.S. It really was pretty obvious to most anyone but inexperienced kids.

Well I suspect it might be more complicated than that. I don't think the human mind is as strong as we'd like to believe. There was some pretty intense indoctrination going on even with adults.

Over the years I've thought about those adults (over 35 yrs. old :-) who got involved while I was in. That was 1970-1987. There were several entire families in together; some of the parents ended up in the Corps. Because of their presence, I've hesitated to say it would be easier to spot falacies in logic, etc. if we'd been older. Older doesn't seem to matter. There were highly skilled professionals active in the ministry: i.e. a surgeon, teachers, etc. and even in the second Corps someone over 30 had a PhD in Literature!

In my view, whatever deep needs people had in their hearts, no matter what their age (and there were plenty of old timers around by the time I left) drew them to TWI and kept them there. Most of us have heard this before: the need for belonging, for simple answers from the Bible which was held to be the Word of God, etc. People's particular needs combined with the certainty of answers given spells committment to the one handing out the answers, it seems...

I'm not sure people's comments are showing up on the blog.

If you think comments made here are missing, I guess you need to contact the administrators.

Penworks, Thanks so much for posting this. I read it on another web site as well. I would like to copy and paste this if it's okay with you. I know a young 26 year old man who seems to think the adversary has just recently infiltrated TWI (his words not mine) and he's involved with a splinter group that celebrates Wierwille's life, teachings, message.

It's okay with me if you want to send the post to someone to help them out.

Good morning everyone. Just checking in with my morning cup of coffee in hand and was shocked to read what's been going on while I snoozed away here in sunny Florida.

A quick update from my chair: Everything I write or say I take responsibility for, as we all do. My intent is to speak my mind on things which may be useful to others and do it not with the intention to harm. Then let the chips fall where they may. After reading all these recent posts, I signed into the other site and read those as well.

After much thought, I deleted this pesky post from the other site and sent a polite message to the owner. I did that out of respect for the owner's rules which before this incident were not so clear to me. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted this material there to begin with.

Anyway, it's wonderful to read such thoughtful replies both here and from people there who left comments. In both places there are some insightful and informative things said about the topics in the post. Believe me, I've put a lot of thought into these matters for more than 20 years and feel compelled to share what I've learned. About our lives, no one can speak for us other than our own voices. I'll leave you with my favorite quote on this theme:

"If we refuse to do the work of creating this personal version of the past, someone else will do it for us. That is the scary political fact. 'The struggle of man against power,' Milan Kundera's hero in The Book of Laughter and Forgetting says, 'is the struggle of memory against forgetting.' He refers to willful political forgetting, the habit of nations and those in power to deny the truth of memory in order to disarm moral and ethical power. It is an efficient way of controlling masses of people." From the book, I Could Tell You Stories by Patricia Hampl, pg.32.

Cheers! Enjoy your day!

Penworks

I agree . . . . It wasn't until the later corp people started to rule that TWI became completely nuts . . . . I think there was a lot of value in the whole thing before this points. I think there is a lot of value in many of the offshoots who went back to the good old days too.

I disagree. Here's why.

I understand how some people may think The Way was good “in the old days” and somehow “got off track” in later years. But I take issue with this line of thinking. I call it deluded nostalgia: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition. What exactly is that condition people are craving? I was involved from 1971-1987 and I don’t crave any of it. But I figure I’d pitch in my two cents here.

Frankly, I think it appears to be nostalgia for small fellowships with rock music or old hymns “corrected to be accurate” with Way doctrine, simple teachings (I guess), and camaraderie with others who thought like we did, and learning “what the Bible says.” On the surface, these things seem fairly harmless. But when I really think about the “old TWI days,” and these activities, I come up with some concerns:

1. The simplistic idealism that we could save the world with cut and dry Bible answers

2. The lack of mature dealings in the world. I was addressed as a child and kept from growing up while in the Corps and afterwards,

3. The gross neglect of my critical thinking faculty

4. The fact we were supposed to sell the PFAL class to people in order for VP to approve of our lives

5. The issue of whether we were “helping people” by using tools belonging to VP’s brand of fundamentalism

6. As far as I know, some still think they helped people with “the Word.” But what exactly is “The Word?” It’s very vague to me. My understanding is that when a phrase is used, there’s a definition for it somewhere. I don’t know of one for “The Word.” It is a phrase thrown around as if we all know what it means. This reminds me of the fairytale about the Emperor’s new clothes. The fact was: Emperor was not wearing any clothes. I don’t think anyone knows what The Word is.

7. Suffice it to say here, the usual explanation by TWI people and former TWI people for what “The Word” is goes something like this: you have to “use certain keys to research to discover what the original Word was.” Whose keys to research? How come we so readily accepted VP’s which he took from various other people who were fundamentalists? If it were so simple to know “The Word,” how come so many diverse interpretations persist?

But back to the good old days. Let’s say the “good old Way days” were good after all, although this is hard for me to fathom. What exactly is being referred to by this claim? IMO, VP created some sense of community with some people for awhile, but what was that based upon? The way I see it, it was based on an agreement that VP’s teachings were God’s Word, on the commitment to the common cause of VP’s delusion of “moving The Word over the World,” and on a simple love for other people - as long as they obeyed what VP said was The Word. If they didn’t, at the very least they were not as spiritual as we were; at the very worst they were “born of the seed of the devil.”

Let’s not forget, however, that this conditional camaraderie came at a price: It was held together by a patriarchal system fraught with deception and power struggles, not to mention rampant sexual, fiscal, and emotional abuse.

In my view, wishing for “the good old days of The Way” denies the nature of the group itself – a fundamentalist, narrow-minded, anti-Christian movement. Why do I say it is anti-Christian? Because people were used as a means to an end. What was the end? Believe that what VP taught was the truth. Evangelize. Sell PFAL classes. Behave according to what The Way leadership dictated.

Nostalgia for the old days also seems to deny the fact that from its inception, the cult was engineered by V.P. Wierwille, who claimed, like Paul in the New Testament, that he heard an audible voice from a monotheistic God adopted from another culture from thousands of years ago (or the voice of Jesus, as in Paul’s case) that no one else heard. This raises all sorts of issues too complex to get into here I think.

While I met many good people whose kindness made me feel loved, during my TWI years, VP’s teachings, such as telling me I was “more than a conqueror” did not help me resolve problems I brought into The Way with me. For awhile, it engendered a positive attitude in me but it did not produce a healthy self image or tolerance, understanding and compassion for others who might not agree with what I believed. I think the doctrines in many instances only instilled a good deal of denial about myself, the good in the world, other cultures, and denial about what it means to be human.

When I first took PFAL, at 18 years old, I certainly was gullible to The Way’s “answers” but the human brain is not even fully developed until 23 or 24 years old so that’s part of this scenario, too. But I also readily admit that I consciously turned a deaf ear to people who warned me not to get involved.

Not only did I make grave errors in judgment when getting involved with TWI, but I was seduced by big fat claims about the nature of the system I was in. It claimed to be a biblical research ministry but it is extreme fundamentalism. I suggest more of us get informed not only about how cults function but what fundamentalism is and the history of its development. It’s not only a way of interpreting the bible but a way of existing in the world.

... when you've been in TWI for decades and you've heard both explicitly and implicitly that the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word, then you've got a much narrower scope of who you are and who you can be and what you can do.

Indeed! I hope this web site can open some former members' eyes (and current ones) about other options for a good, ethical, and productive life. Self confidence is the first step...I know it was for me.

Thanks for the updates.

Geer's unquestioning dedication to VP doctrine is astounding...but not so suprising...as is most of the splinter groups' promoters. They show how powerful indoctrination can be. When critics scoff at the idea of mind control being a real issue in extremist groups, I think they're missing out on a good long look at examples like this...

Does anyone know whether Geer's class is still being conducted? Not that I hope so...

For info about him and his PFAL spin-off class refer to:

Chris Geer's TWI offshoot class

I agree that the so-called Law of Believing is a major problem that keeps being propounded. But I would go further than that. IMO it's the underlying assumption that the Bible has all the answers to life's problems and must be without error.

Due to the preliferation of spin-off groups based on VPW's research, I'd say the indoctrination techniques in TWI, particularly regarding research, were more powerful than some people might think.

Here's a good example: From The Cult that Snapped by Karl Kahler:

Bible Lands research issues

"Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship"

We happened to be in the corps with this guy and his family and for what it's worth, he/they were good-hearted people who weren't on the take. They seemed to really want to help other people. We haven't communicated with them in over 20 years, so who knows how they've changed and whether or not they ever sat down and took a hard look at vp & co. Either way, it's still hard to believe that there are so many groups out there still doing this.

While it's possible to be good hearted, not abusive, not "on the take," which the people running this group very well may be, that is beside the point IMO. It is still possible to be misled, and then, although you didn't originate the doctrines you perpetuate, be held responsible for continuing to propound those doctrines as "truth."

My questions about doing this are many. Some are:

Is this the best way to help people?

Is "The Word" so plainly obvious for all to see?

If so, why are there so many divergent groups and interpretations?

These are old questions, I know.

IMO, it's important to keep in mind that just because people start a spin-off of TWI does not imply they are bad people. What I do think it does show or seem to indicate is that are still convinced they were taught "the accuracy of the Bible" by VPW. To me that fact is important to know when considering how to evaluate a spin-off or whether or not to "join" it.

Can't find it?

Here ya go...

The splinter group business

Thanks for the warning geez is this ever gonna stop! Offshoots teaching the same lame lies.

Refer to the topic, The Slinter Group Business, for three more named groups involving Way Corps grads.

Does it ever occur to anyone (other than me, I guess), that maybe, just maybe, there's a finite amount of wisdom that can be gleaned from The Bible? What, 66 books, a lot of which are nothing more than letters - and not even particularly long letters, and the Jewish and Christian communities have dedicated CENTURIES, nay MILLENNIA, and untold resources, Universities, Institutes, countless committees and groups, and even more individuals, to examining every jot and tittle (quite literally) of this one manuscript? You'd think that maybe we'd have gotten a handle on it by now, wouldn't you? But NOOOOOO!

We have to have a whole bunch more pencil-necked geeks to instruct us in what The Bible REALLY says! And, evidently, we need more every few days!

Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...

You might be interested in reading, The End of Biblical Studies by Hector Avalos.

The End of Biblical Studies

Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship

Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship

This one is run by a Family Corps grad but he was not a part of the Research Team.

Two more spin-off groups involving Way Corps graduates, each of whom were on the Way's Research Team in the 1980s:

Light of the Word Ministry

and

Christian Leadership Training

Like all things twi.....more hoops were continually added to the "training" process.

Take pfal....then intermediate....and later, the advanced class to be "fully instructed." THEN.....you really need to take other "advanced studies" classes ie The Renewed Mind, Witnessing and Undershepherding, The Way Tree, Keys to Biblical Research, Dealing with the Adversary, etc.

Go WOW.....grow 10 years in 1 year. You've got to go, to know.

Go WOW again....this time, do it better. Do it right.

Go Corps....spiritual training for God's best twig coordinators. Upon graduation, go forth to serve.

BUT......many 3rd, 4th and 5th corps were "invited" back for another inresidence block.

The first and second corps were also brought back in for another year of indoctrination.

I'm posting this link because I've been asked about this group. It is a spinoff group of twi.

Capital Area Biblical Studies Fellowship

I too am very distressed - to say the least - to read this topic and my heart goes out to you, Brainfixed. This is a shocking thing you said, "how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives."

I joined twi in 1970 and left in 1987. Never did I hear this. It's an understatement to say this is a hideous and dangerous belief. And twi said it was Christian??!!!

I think you've raised an excellent point - the fear used to keep members from questioning twi teachings. It's an important one especially for anyone wrestling with old twi doctrines and trying to decide which ones are "accurate" and which ones to toss out (I say begin by learning how documents in the bible became scripture in the first place, who wrote them and when, etc. but that's another topic).

IMO opinion, the problem persists even post-twi. Many twi splinter groups seem to miss this point entirely because they continue to propound twi teachings.

Anyhow, thanks for the effort you put into describing this process of fear motivation used to get people to stick with twi's interpretation of the bible. Nothing like using the boogy man to make people afraid and keep 'em in line. It's an old method used by plenty of religions and groups around the world but becoming aware of it is the first step up to enlightenment, in my view.

Hi everyone,

I came across this article in the NY Times archives today and thought some of you might want to read it. It's an older one, from 1982, but some newbies here might benefit from it especially.

The Psychology of the Cult Experience

Cheers!

"they [TWI leaders] must apologize to and ask forgiveness from all those whom they have despitefully used, made merchandise of, lied to, and stolen from, and they must do so publicly! no more hiding behind their walls of zion!"

This is a wonderful wish. If only wishes came true.

I also looked at the Susan Blackmore presentation.

It gives additional credence to the rewiring theory.

Just some thoughts:

I also viewed Susan Blackmore's talk and she surely has a point about immitating being powerful. But it is a theory. Theories are not written in stone. In a way I think she lends credence to the rewiring theory, but she also left me wondering how stedfast the effects of immitation really are since people change and thinking and believing are mysterious things, influenced by many forces.

I'm no professional on this topic, but it seems true that we are complex humans who have all sorts of ways to "weed out" some kinds of information and latch onto others that suit us at any given time; we don't always fit the theories. As we all seem to realize, each person is different and got into and out of twi for different reasons and often in vastly different circumstances.

A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy...

So what does it take? For me, the system showed itself broken and I had to face the fact there were better ways of thinking and living that would help me...that's an understatement for those of you who wonder...

Visit this T.E.D. talk by former moonie & deprogrammer, Diane Benscoter, about how the human brain is changed by the circular logic, etc. of extreme dogmatic groups.

Diane Benscoter's T.E.D. talk

I think she may be right about how impenetrable circular logic can be, although for many of us who left TWI, for example, somehow we found a way to break through that firewall so it is not impossible to do. Critical thinking is the method of release, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, this topic is not new to many of you here, but her talk is concise. She has also written a memoir.

It's food for thought and debate.

T.E.D. is a site for "Ideas worth spreading" as it says.

Cheers!

All righty, then... :)

George

Didn't mean to be abrupt. Was short on time when answering, but that's no excuse for sounding rude, if I did. Sorry...

Cheers!

Okay I was on the thread about the guy pilferig TWI's aramaic work and this was semi refered to and I didn't want to derail that thread so any input would be appreciated.

If that is so What actually did he say?? Was I spared for this Purpose??? or My God why have you left me???

Sorry probably needs to be another thread.

As in star Trek I will make it so!

Yeah, too bad there's no tape...

I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...

Didn't Mike G*d*** work on this project too? I seem to remember him going back to school at U of Chicago for Aramaiac studies prior to him leaving twi. Sorry if I'm asking about someone who might not want their name associated. But those are cool interlinears, and some of that work influenced other stuff that's finding it's way into good Bible software now.

He did go to Univ. of Chicago but focused mostly on Greek. He did not work on these Aramaic projects.

If that is so What actually did he say?? Was I spared for this Purpose??? or My God why have you left me???

Sorry probably needs to be another thread.

As in star Trek I will make it so!

I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...