penworks

I have been reading Bart Ehrman's works for a couple of years, and have been listening to his lectures. I have to say that I find little to disagree with him about, which has messed with my faith considerably. My faith was based largely on logic and facts that I found in TWI. Now that I've stepped outside the premises, I struggle with the lack of either in the face of historical evidence when combined with the largely dishonest approach to scripture that TWI embraced.

Now I understand why ignorance is bliss and why Christians are told to avoid certain things.

I would argue that ignorance is NOT bliss...ignorance has only hindered me in being a more fulfilled person or one who could better weigh options before making informed decisions. But I'm an obsessed reader and knowledge junkie so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Perhaps this will shed some light, although I can only speak for myself here...For me, reading about the history of Bible texts or any other texts considered sacred in the world is separate from what I feel is an internal spiritual life. I have come to the place that spirituality or "faith" in an unseen creator does not have to depend on knowledge from a book, any book, including the Hebrew scriptures or the diverse collection of documents in the N.T. or the Koran or any Buddhist writings or Shakespeare for that matter. If it did, we'd be in the soup.

Why? We don't have any originals and even if we did, what we'd have are originals of the Hebrew people's mythology (that is not a derogatory term) and the originals of letters in the N.T. to specific groups of people who understood them in a different context and culture than the one we live in. The events surrounding why they were written are long lost to us. In addition, they were understood by people with a world view vastly different than ours (one small example is that they thought the earth was flat) and so their meaning is not necessarily one we would relate to. But that's another huge topic...

For me, the more I explored different religions, the clearer it became that generally people from all cultures throughout time have been using religion as a way to express their understanding of a Creator, to record their perceptions of it, and not to define it accurately or know it completely (well, maybe Paul thought he was doing that but I'm not sure about his agenda). It's the extremists that have made the problems, made the US vs. THEM a problematic attitude about one's religion.

Karen Armstrong is a wonderful writer on this topic. Check out her work on Amazon, especially The Battle for God - The History of Fundamentalism.

So is Joseph Campbell, author of The Power of Myth. Of course, they are not writing from a "Christian" point of view, but from an historian's point of view, just as Bart Ehrman is doing about the history of N.T. texts - and where and how the canon was decided upon. But perhaps this post does not fit into this thread. If a person wants to stick with the Christian frame of reference, which includes that the Bible is God's Word and there's no other way to know Him (or It) than from the Bible and through Jesus Christ, then reading theologically-based works by Christians would be of more interest...

It seems to me that most religions are all pointing to the same star but from different directions. For me, it became important to understand how and why I came to take the Bible as the authority over anything else such as other religious writings, and more importantly, over what I knew was right inside myself.

In this process spanning 20 years since leaving twi, I feel I've gained a more appropriate view about the Bible and so appreciate it differently than I did while in twi. But I'm no scholar or expert. And I'm sure enjoying the journey post-twi.

One of the things I found intriguing about TWI was its (supposed) slant on research. I've never seen the TWI research library, so I would be interested in what exactly was in the library.

Well, this is a huge can of worms. Many topics here at gsc already have been written on this, so I'm sure you can do a search and find them. Since I worked on the Research Team at HQ from 1984 - 1986, I'll just add a few notes here in bold:

In the research library were some of vpw' old books, both what he read and what he published, various concordances, Greek texts, and books on O.T. history, archaeology etc. The ironic thing is that most of the time the research library went unused by the Way Corps, at least while I was there, and the research team was kept so busy on projects that they only focused on their area of responsibility. In the Rare Book Room there were also some microfilms of Aramaic manuscripts from the British Museum, etc. I've read somewhere lately that there was a copy of J.E. Stiles book on the Holy Spirit which vpw copied extensively from, although I never noticed it there...I was too "busy." Geez...

Did researchers go and visit libraries that contained some of the ancient texts?

Walt#r Cummins, the head of research, was sent to Germany at least once (I think twice) to look at Greek manuscripts in an attempt to discover variants in Greek texts that would back up what vpw believed had to "be the original" according to his own "scope of the Word." Also, one team member went to the Near East to search Syriac texts.

Were different texts used for comparative purposes when arriving at conclusions, or did they simply study texts that were bought for purposes of research?

During 1984-1986 when I was on the team, there were members of the team trained in Greek and Syriac who had been educated at the University of Chicago (I was not one of them, I was merely helping with the Aramaic concordance). Various Greek texts, as well as the Syriac version, which most scholars believe is a translation of the Greek (vpw referred to it as "Estrangelo Aramaic") were consulted. These sources, as well as info about customs and biblical archaeology, etc. were drawn from when putting together the "Literal translations according to usage" under the direction of Wal#er Cummins, the head of Research at the time. These literals were taught to the Way Corps on Corps night each week.

Here is one of the premises that I wonder about:

The Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God, therefore any inconsistencies can be explained by errors in translation or transmission.

That is the typical approach of Bible fundamentalists who argue for inerrancy.

What I saw happen in TWI was the Bible being given an extreme makeover to satisfy the above premise, which included the genealogy sections, 5 crucified, how many times the cock crowed, and most of the events leading up to the crucifixion, the crucifixion, the burial, and the resurrection; namely because not one of these accounts in the 4 gospels agree (completely) with the others.

..."the Bible being given an extreme makeover"... IMO, this is the understatement of the century.

...included the genealogy sections, 5 crucified, how many times the cock crowed, and most of the events leading up to the crucifixion, the crucifixion, the burial, and the resurrection;

And there are reasons for this...vpw used the works of E.W. Bullinger, etc. as the basis of his theology. Note: You probably know this, but the gospels were written by different people, at different times, with different interpretations of who/what JC was. Scholars agree that Mark was used as a source for Matthew and Luke. John was written last. A good source for info on the first century mess that is called Christianity, and on the history of the texts that were put together and called The Bible, is Bart Ehrman who has written extensively on this topic.

While it was obvious (mostly after the fact) that no real research was going on, what were the researchers actually doing?

Well, I can tell you this from my own observations and experience that from 1984 - 86 research projects included:

1) doing the research for the Bible Lands Tour which launched in October 1985.

2) collaborating as a team with Walt@r Cummins to produce "literal translations according to usage" of scriptures that were taught to the Way Corps

3) advising in-resident Way Corps members on the research papers they had to produce in order to graduate

4) producing the Aramaic (Syriac) concordance and interlinear, which had gone on for many many many years

5) answering letters from people "on the field" who had questions about research, some of which were published in the Way Magazine

6) writing articles for the Way Magazine in the biblical research section called GMIR (that word is the transliteration of the Syriac letters for the word meaning "to perfect, accomplish, complete' arithmetically to be divisible without any remainder." This was to support vpw's idea that the scripture could be "rightly divided" and fit with a "mathmatical exactness and scientific precision."

7) those with college degrees taught research classes on various topics at the College of Emporia, Indiana Campus, and to the in-rez Corps at HQ in Ohio.

8) and dealing with a myriad of other things that led me to resign in 1986.

...No! It can't be! You mean I was tricked?![/color][/i][/b] But I think that phase is a normal reaction – part of our defense mechanism to deny thoughts & feelings that could cause more anxiety – making things even worse. Maybe it buys us some time – to let our heads "catch up" and fully process what actually happened.

A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: “Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information.” Pg. 107. Our task, it seems to me, is to first be aware these exist and then try and offset them with reality checks. For me, reality checks include listening to other people, reading a lot, and making more time for contemplation and reflection on my life than modern society normally allows. Hey, no one said it's easy.

Cheers,

Your neighborhood book hound, Penworks

... I thought the whole point of the ministry was to RESEARCH and FIX stuff if they found something wrong - not just keep the same stagnant crud year after year. Ugh.

Right. I thought that was the point, too, back in 1970 when someone talked me into taking PFAL. I admit, they didn't have to twist my arm too hard, since I was so hungry for "answers."

Too bad VP did not allow for much FIXING...especially after the PFAL class was filmed. Couldn't redo it after all that $$ was spent!

Oakspear - congrats on your 7th anniversary. My 21st is this month.

Ever since I have been in ex-way communities, I am absolutely fascinated that people can take or leave many Way doctrines but they hold on for dear life to JCING. Here's a thought, what if that book is wrong? It's just like believing. The Way really made it out to be telling God what to do, instead of the more humble approach of asking. Similarly, I think an honest look at JCING is worth doing. Just a few years prior to that book, where did VP stand?

Paw - Someone who might be able to shed light on your question about where vp might have stood just prior to JCNG being published is DWBH. My own 2 cents:

When I was about 12 yrs. old, (yeah yeah back in the dark ages ) my mother and I sat in a pew on Good Friday at St. Francis de Sales Catholic Church. We were supposed to contemplate on the crucifixtion and what it meant for Jesus to die for us. Jesus, who of course was the second person of the Trinity, was also fully man, and fully God. As expected, I was also taking catechism classes at Catholic school and had it pounded into my pea brain that God was the creator who kept the universe in order, for instance He was busy preventing Earth from crashing into Mars, etc.

So out of boredom or a trouble making impulse, or something, I leaned over and asked my mom, if JC was God, but he died and was dead for three days and three nights, who kept the universe in order while he was dead since that was his job as God? She frowned and said it was a mystery. Did not make sense to me.

Then in high school, I got involved with Young Life. My local leader made a point, for some reason, of pointing out the word "trinity" was not found in the N.T. and so wasn't "true." He made that claim on the basis that the N.T. (at least his copy of Good News for Modern Man) contains the entire truth of God's Word, so if the trinity ain't in there, it ain't true. Made sense to me

By then I was starting to question the authority of my Catholic church. Mmm...not unlike in the tradition of someone named Martin Luther, but of course I was too young, too uneducated, and too shy to nail anything on any front door of any cathedral and cause an uproar. But then of course I had never heard of Martin Luther yet, either.

Then, in Dec. 1970 I took PFAL and don't remember hearing the word "trinity", only that JC was the son of God. Made sense to me. (Of course, vp had a way of making many things seem as if they made sense, since you barely had time to think about what he was saying nor the implications of what he said.)

Then, I left twi in 1987 and decided I didn't know anything for sure.

Most people here probably know that the trinity was "invented" long after Jesus died and this "trinity" became a major church doctrine. It was an attempt to identify just who or what JC was since there were so many conflicting ideas floating around (ref. books like Lost Christianities - The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew and you'll get a good overview). The debate continues to this day, obviously. Makes it up in the air for me.

I'm inclined to think JC was a man, although an enlightened one and definitely worth reading about in the N.T. and other documents. But then you should know that I'm a person who does not hold to the idea that the Bible is "perfect" nor contains everything we might ever learn about what people call "God."

BTW - Has anyone read The History of God by Karen Armstrong? I know Socks has.

Cheers!

I would be interested to know if those professional counselors are still in TWI ... or if they left and are in a splinter ... or when they left ... since you mentioned the comments from penworks, which are indeed helpful, i was wondering about this ...

The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that.

Does TWI allow some of those professionals to help? Or are they still using holy water and silver bullets? Or are those professionals still in TWI, putting on bandaids, as they compromise their "secular/worldy" training to "make it accurate" according to da wuhrd?

The splinters have maybe progressed a little, how could they exist without some changes? ... But given the spiders in the noses type rev' that was reported ... it seems some ministers have their own schizophrenia ... or whatever ...

Since I'm getting quoted here, I figured I'd respond to this. In my comments about people in twi getting college degrees: vpw's comments that I heard were specifically in reference to the ECU guys finishing their degrees before they went in the Corps so that they'd have a worldly credential along with their Way training. He thought this would give them entry into leadership circles out in the world where they could witness and win people for twi. Without a degree, there would be a more limited way of reaching people. I venture to say that this idea continued well into the future. It also included gaining "sense knowledge" that could be evaluated and "made accurate" and useful to twi (like he used to change words in songs to make them more accurate with his version of the Bible).

That said, I would never, I repeat never, mean to say that anyone who got any degree accomplished that ONLY to serve twi's purposes. Knowing some of the people DBWH mentioned (in the thread about TWI vs Therapeutic Relationships), I'm venture to say that in their hearts they genuinely wanted to help people. Who knows what is in a man or woman's heart anyway? The problem is that because twi was a closed system, these trained people in counseling were in a very odd situation when counseling, to say the least. DWBH outlined those issues already.

Peace,

Penworks

hi greasespotters!

many posts through the years here at the spot, have detailed the spotty "doctrines and practices" of the approved methodology of "pastoral" or "christian" counseling employed and promoted by twi and its "leadership" during its various incarnations

imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?.................................................peace.

Hello DWBH and everyone here,

I've been on vacation so am just now catching up. Boy, this is a critical topic to any discussion of twi, IMO. It is a CRITICAL area of ANY ministry.

I was in an early Corps, before DWBH, and had no focused teaching on counseling people other than using the Dale Carnegie class principles mixed with the Bible. Like when you're counseling a person, "Try to see things honestly from the other person's point of view" and tell them things like, "Live in day tight compartments" to overcome worry. To that, we'd add things like, "Think the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word." The idea was to keep people focused on positive not negative thoughts and we'd point out appropriate Bible verses for them to "renew their mind" in whatever catagory they had a problem. That, of course, fosters denial of stupendous proportions. In that scenario, problems are not really addressed and resolved, only covered over with a bandaid. I can testify to that!

When I graduated from the Corps in 1973, got married, and went to L.A. for our first assignment, I was scared to death of counseling. It was not clear how to go about handling people's problems except to encourage them to renew their mind to the Way teachings and love one another - and use those Carnegie keys. It's a shame, really. I shudder to think how many people I tried to "help" with these pitiful tools and hope I didn't do too much damage, telling people to just "get committed to the Word" or "let go and let God" so that their problems would be solved. Geez. I did all that myself and I KNOW my problems many times were not solved!

I do remember that any counseling by "outsiders" like psychologists or psychiatrists was definitely "off the Word." You couldn't forbid anyone from gaining that help, but it was labeled as "sense knowledge" and even worse, as DWBH mentioned, vpw said it had its roots in spiritualism (the devil's country), not the accuracy of The Word. So I never suggested that to anyone; we just tried to discern any devil spirits and pray for people.

One thing I was confused about was regarding the manifestations of the spirit, like discerning of devil spirits, which we were supposed to "operate" in order to help people. If, for instance, being homosexual automatically meant a person had a devil spirit of homosexuality, but the only way you (as their leader) could know whether that person had such a devil spirit was by "operating discerning of spirits" then how come by just looking at them or being around them you could tell they were gay? What do I need discerning of spirits for? My 5 senses told me the situation clear enough. I didn't need to "operate" a manifestation of the spirit. I just didn't understand how to tell the difference. I often felt weak spiritually because I was unsure. It just did not add up. BTW - I had a family member who was gay and I resented this whole teaching! I loved that person and accepted her the way she was. I could not accept that she was possessed.

The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that.

Let's all hope people get the kind of help they need when they need it...it's not always easy and sometimes it takes awhile to find the right sort of counsel. But for heaven's sake, who can honestly think Jesus or God or Buddha, or anyone spiritually minded would label people who are trying to provide mental health solutions to others as "of the devil." Let's crawl out of the dark ages...

Peace

Krysilis,

I, too, am terribly sorry to hear this happened. Thanks for telling us. And thanks to Skyrider, also. My heart just aches for you all and your families.

Perhaps knowing you have supportive people here helps a bit. For me, having known these top "leaders," I am especially terribly sad over all the corruption and hurt through the years that was kept in the shadows from so many of us.

I left HQ in 1987 and have known little about things that happened after that until coming here to gsc. It's about time these stories are told and listened to.

One question: can you tell us what action, if any, you know of that Rev. WC might have taken after this incident? Did he leave HQ then? You can PM me with the answer if you want.

Peace to you.

I find it quite remarkable that there's still so many (especially in The States) that subscribe to the concept.

...

I honestly think that, had we not been given an incredibly forceful a-priori belief at a very early age that there was something really special about The Bible , we wouldn't give any of it a second thought today - if we even knew of it's existence. I think the reverence and abject obeisance to it is stark evidence of the power of a "meme".

Well said, George. And IMO it's quite correct that the poll question frames inerrancy as a "belief." Beliefs can often NOT be proven. Beliefs are powerful, though, as we know from our own experiences in twi.

Anyhow, any good book on the history of the N.T. texts (and Hebrew Bible) describes how and when the canon was formed. It does not seem clear that inerrancy was a claim they made back then - they just figured those documents were inspired and authored by either the original apostles or disciples who were followers of the original apostles. Nor did they think the books were historically "correct" as far as I can find out.

There's much scholarly doubt today that Paul wrote all the N.T. books that are ascribed to him, i.e. I and II Timothy and Titus were NOT written by him, and II Peter was not written by the apostle Peter, etc. There's a lot more of that info out there...

Seems to me that inerrancy is farcical. About 20 years ago I never dreamed I'd ever think this!!!

For those who did not get this info in college (or anywhere else) but are interested in the first few centuries of "church" history, IMO here is a site worth investigating. The info on the site is in connection with a video documentary put out by Frontline on PBS:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...religion/jesus/

From my local library, I borrowed and watched these videos. I daresay they provide a source of info on this topic that most of us did not get while in twi. Maybe there was a reason...

After gaining this sort of education, some of us pause to question the claim that vpw taught the Word since it had not been known since the first century...

Has anyone gotten the book yet?

I did. One thing: Because she writes it in present tense, I think the snippets of conversation at the start of each chapter are a good way to show the reader the thoughts of the "present day" Kristen. The story moves along fast, except for the times I have to put it down and mourn over her ordeal for a few minutes.

Although late, I send you best wishes on your birthday. Hope it was wonderful for you. You've come a long way, lady!

Cheers,

penworks

My thoughts and prayers are with them all, too. Thanks for these updates.

For those of us who were around vpw, I think we can verify that the following info written by Dr. Sam Vaknin is a pretty good description of the way vpw (and some other twi leaders) acted much of the time. The court's findings referenced above make a distinction between belief and actions. Actions that betray the trust people put in their religious leaders are WRONG. Actions like the ones described below, IMO, are in this catagory.

Regardless of what vpw or others like him have taught about the Bible, I think it's safe to say it's more than wise to avoid the company of a person who behaves in ways described below, and at the very least we should regard as suspect anything they might teach. Keep in mind that vpw's teachings and the teachings of twi at present are founded on a way of interpreting the Bible that is fabricated by Christian fundamentalists and are not the ONLY or right way to view the books of the Bible... and some of vpw's teachings IMO are downright manipulation of the scriptures, such as 4 crucified, Eli Eli, spiritual adultery, etc. etc. There are many references to these sorts of teachings here at gsc, like the article called Actual errors in PFAL, etc

Info source: http://www.meadowhaven.org/psychissues/cultofnarcissist.html

The Cult of the Narcissist

By: Dr. Sam Vaknin

Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com ) is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Central Europe Review, PopMatters, E-BookWeb, and Bellaonline, and as a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent. He is the the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.

The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock: his spouse, his offspring, other family members, friends and colleagues. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals. The less accomplished he is in reality – the more stringent his mastery and the more pervasive the brainwashing.

The – often involuntary – members of the narcissist’s mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, “enemies”, mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted.

The narcissist’s control is based on ambiguity, unpredictability, fuzziness, and ambient abuse. His ever-shifting whims exclusively define right versus wrong, desirable and unwanted, what is to be pursued and what to be avoided. He alone determines the rights and obligations of his disciples and alters them at will.

The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviors. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals.

The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification. He seeks to control both situations and people compulsively.

He strongly disapproves of others’ personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one’s family require his permission. Gradually, he isolates his nearest and dearest until they are fully dependent on him emotionally, sexually, financially, and socially.

He acts in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes often. He alternates between emphasizing the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the talents, traits and skills (idealizes) of the members of his cult. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations – which legitimizes his subsequent abusive conduct.

The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skillful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.

His thinking is dogmatic, rigid, and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn’t brook criticism and disagreement. He demands – and often gets – complete trust and the relegation to his capable hands of all decision-making.

He forced the participants in his cult to be hostile to critics, the authorities, institutions, his personal enemies, or the media – if they try to uncover his actions and reveal the truth. He closely monitors and censors information from the outside, exposing his captive audience only to selective data and analyses.

The narcissist’s cult is “missionary” and “imperialistic”. He is always on the lookout for new recruits – his spouse’s friends, his daughter’s girlfriends, his neighbors, and new colleagues at work. He immediately attempts to “convert” them to his “creed” – to convince them how wonderful and admirable he is. In other words, he tries to render them Sources of Narcissistic Supply.

Often, his behavior on these “recruiting missions” is different to his conduct within the “cult”. In the first phases on wooing new admirers and proselytizing to potential “conscripts” – the narcissist is attentive, compassionate, empathic, flexible, self-effacing, and helpful. At home, among the “veterans” he is tyrannical, demanding, willful, opinionated, aggressive and exploitive.

As the leader of his congregation, the narcissist feels entitled to special amenities and benefits not accorded the “rank and file”. He expects to be waited on hand and foot, to make free use of everyone’s money and dispose of their assets liberally, and to be cynically exempt from the rules that he himself established (if such violation is pleasurable or gainful).

In extreme cases, the narcissist feels above the law – any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities.

Hence the narcissist’s panicky and sometimes violent reactions to “dropouts” from his cult. There’s a lot going on that the narcissist wants kept under wraps. Moreover, the narcissist stabilizes his fluctuating sense of self-worth by deriving Narcissistic Supply from his victims. Abandonment threatens the narcissist’s precariously balanced personality.

Add to that the narcissist’s paranoid and schizoid tendencies, his lack of introspective self-awareness, and his stunted sense of humor (lack of self-deprecation) and the risks to the grudging members of his cult are clear.

The narcissist sees enemies and conspiracies everywhere. He often casts himself as the heroic victim (martyr) of dark and stupendous forces. In every deviation from his tenets he espies malevolent and ominous subversion. He, therefore, is bent on disempowering his devotees. By any and all means.

The narcissist is dangerous.

Back to the thread's topic regarding this second interview... Thanks again to Paw and Kristen. I can hardly imagine how challenging it must be to "go on the record" with your story, Kristen. And as difficult as it may be for some people to stomach listening to this sad story, I think it is important to listen. It speaks to many issues surrounding how something like this happens, denial being one of the most powerful ones.

As humans, when we invest our hearts in a cause we believe to be true, we want so badly for it to be true that we'll avoid considering any doubts about its value, often to our own disadvantage, or even our own destruction. Take any intro psychology class and you'll probably learn this or browse the aisle of the self-help section at Borders and you'll see dozens of books on this topic of denial, not to mention cult awareness books...

BTW: Other sources of info that happend to help me leave The Way in 1987:

The Way International and Victor Paul Wierwille published in 1979 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, written by J.L. Williams, ISBN 0-8024-9233-9. It's a little paperback of 159 pages including cult info references, notes, bibliography etc. I first found it in a used bookstore in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1986. It helped me get out of The Way and understand some major issues, and although some of the theological points discussed are not ones I necessarily agreed with, the writer helped open my eyes to some things.

In 1987, a friend recommended reading From Ashes to Gold by Patti Roberts, which tells of her experiences at Oral Roberts University (there are some similarities with The Way Corps training, etc.). She describes her disillusionment with the cause and her eventual divorce from Oral Robert's son, Richard. Although I did not (nor do now) espouse many of her religious beliefs, her understanding of the power that Oral Roberts had over her life and how the groupthink of the organization controlled her were things I could relate to first-hand. To her credit, she began questioning and stood up for herself, got out and started a new life.

Needless to say, I'm surely thankful you did, too, Kristen.

Penworks you said:

"Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it."

Yet now, you are shutting down the conversation. May I ask why? Is it coming too close to home? Let me assure you, there is nothing "heretical" about questioning God, for the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY is not afraid of your questions, Penworks. HE loves to prove HIMSELF true. Please respond to this. Thanks.

Since this post, much of what Oakspear and Lindy have said pretty much reflect my feelings and thoughts, too. I have no intention [nor the power] of "shutting down the conversation." What I have to add, I feel, is just repetitive of what I've already offered. And besides, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to myself

I'm truly glad you've found a path for you that "works," brideofjc, and ask that you understand I need to be on my way. Let the conversation continue, ya'll!

besides that...we have a family member who is near dying, so I probably won't be around here for awhile.

peace

Well, thanks everyone for taking the time you have with this topic.

Guess all I have left to say is that I vote for the Golden Rule...

as far as a spiritual journey goes, it's clear each of us has a unique path...

peace

Very interesting turns this topic takes...

Just one comment [and I know it's not popular] and I give it with respect, as I trust my viewpoint will be respected, about the following belief which brideofjc shared:

"While Matthew, Mark et al may have been penned by those names, the true author is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY"

Although for years I would have agreed with you, my quest for understanding of this book called the Bible has led me to the place of questioning this assumption. Many people have various understandings about what or who God is [even in the O.T. different names were used and some say they refer to different "gods"]. For me, this affects the idea of an "authorship" by God of the Bible.

Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it.

IMO, humankind has tried to relate to the unseen power around it since developing consciousness and has come up with various ways. May I be so bold as to suggest reading something like A History of God for further enlightenment for those interested?

From what I know, when monotheism developed, it ruled out other ideas of God, at least this seems to have happened in the area of the world we know of as the Near East today. Monotheism is one way of relating to the creative universe. There are other ways, too, just as good and productive, and creative and loving...

just a few thoughts...now I need to get back to yard work...how mundane... <_<

Hi everyone,

First, Lindy, I love what you said, "A light in total darkened emptiness doesn't illuminate anything. There needs to be something there to absorb and reflect it." Gonna think about that one for while. Sometimes your writing is very poetic...

Anyhow, getting back to the first question about how "scripture" was taught in twi to mean the Bible (KJV canon) Here's just a bit of info about where this idea came from: that the scriptures, i.e. the Bible, is The Word of God and the "only rule of faith and practice" (as pointed out by a post in this thread by DontWorryBeHappy) .

I realize vpw credited Rosalind Rinker as the person who influenced him to believe this, but this idea has a long history starting pretty much with Luther's 95 thesis, the first item on his list pitted the authority of the Bible against tradition found in the Catholic Church [not a bad idea, but he became extreme about it IMO]. Some of you may know how vpw loved Luther. Luther claimed that no church tradition could claim divine sanction unless it was supported by scripture. So he decided scripture (which version? which translation?) was the only godly authority over our lives. This set in motion a wild chain of events...

"In his public debate in Leipzig with Johann Eck, theology professor at Ingolstadt (1519), Luther made his controversial new doctrine sola scripture ('scripture alone') explicit for the first time. How could Luther understand the Bible, Eck asked, without the popes, councils and universities? Luther replied: 'A simple layman armed with scripture is to be believed above a pople or council without it.' This was an unprecendented claim. Jews and Christians had always upheld the sacred importance of inherited tradition." The Bible - A Biography by Karen Armstrong, pg. 165.

IMO, its good idea to question tradition; however, this stance, because of ignorance of so many things about the Bible, has led to all the conflicting interpretations, sects, denominations, and yes - cults - in the world, and caused monstrous bloodshed, bigotry, mark and avoid tactics, hateful speech, bad behavior, etc. you name it, promulgated by people who believe they are "right" in their interpretation and application of scripture in our modern world.

Read about Luther and his life; you may begin to question his ideas, ideas which some of us inherited from twi.

I've cited Armstrong's work here before. But any history of the Bible could provide this same information. What I like about her book is that it is so concise . It's a very easy read. Read a few pages on your lunch hour.

It is only 229 pages. The are extensive notes with other works cited that you can read, too, if you're interested.

Publishers Weekly wrote: "...Armstrong not only describes how, when, and by whom the Bible was written, she also examines some two thousand years of biblical interpretation by rabbis and bishops, scholars and mystics, pietists and critics, thus opening up a myriad of exegetical [exegesis is the interpretation and understanding of a text on the basis of the text itself] approaches and dispelling any fundamentalist notion that only one view can be correct."

Also, Wide as the Waters - the History of the English Bible and the Revolution it Inspired by historian Benson Bobrick is great. It blew my mind! I saw how some of us have not only repeated the gross mistakes of others because of our ignorance but also out of our deliberate narrow-mindedness.

I'm on a campaign (can you tell ) to stamp out ignorance of the history of this text. It has influenced our lives in such profound ways - some good, some bad. The Golden Rule, as many have suggested, can help us get past old forms of narrow thinking about how we treat others; that "rule" may be the only hope we have of surviving in this crazy world.

Okay, enough from the book nerd...

Yesterday, Beth Ricks Lowder, 2nd Corps, passed away. We are very saddened by this news. She was a sweet, loving sister to me during those in rez-years and endeavored to make art live in a world that needs it.

She will be sorely missed.

I'm not at liberty to post her husband's email address here, but he has a page on the Way Corps site to receive messages...

GSC for me is a place to learn from other people and, as a result, clarify my thinking a bit more about my twi experience.

Sometimes, it's a place to share some of my twi experience when I feel it'll help.

It's a place where I can offer info that'll throw light on some topics of interest.

It's also a place where, in doing these things, I believe I can extend some compassion and understanding to others sometimes...hey what can I say? I once was a girl scout I think they brainwashed me It's a tall order, for sure...but hey, shoot for the stars and you might hit the fence. I confess - I often have trouble with the "respect authority" item...

Here's what I found on the web:

The Girl Scout Promise

On my honor, I will try:

To serve God* and my country,

To help people at all times,

And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

The Girl Scout Law

I will do my best to be

honest and fair,

friendly and helpful,

considerate and caring,

courageous and strong, and

responsible for what I say and do,

and to

respect myself and others,

respect authority,

use resources wisely,

make the world a better place, and

be a sister to every Girl Scout.

* The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate.

Indeed, patience is sorely lacking nowadays when it comes to Bible topics, I've found.

In response to this thread's title, Wierwille's *research* I can add a few comments, which I've posted elsewhere on gsc, but they may shed some light for readers of this thread, also.

A common sentiment of many former twi followers seems to be "too bad twi turned sour, it could've been so great," or similar wishes. I felt that myself for a little while [very little] back in 84-86 when I was struggling. It was not easy to face my dream's disintegration.

The assumptions on which vpw built his ministry were not clear or understandable to me when I first took PFAL as a teenager. And I wasn't aware of what questions to ask, etc. Years later, I came to understand the system was a closed one from the beginning. He based his ministry on the "truth" that the Bible was perfect and it was God's Word from Genesis to Revelation. He said he threw out all his textbooks (probably including textual criticism, etc.) and decided Rosalind Rinker had the truth: that The Bible was the Word of God, and the Word of God was the Will of God. Info on her is available on the Internet.

IMO the religious context of a group like twi is part Fundamentalism and part Evangelicalism, neither of which leaves much wiggle room for questions like we've been asking over in the post, "what does 'scripture' refer to."

In general, the questions there are in the catagory of what's known as textual and historical criticism which is NOT encouraged in twi or similar groups. Why? Those questions seem to undercut the assumptions that the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, has to be perfect, without contradictions, historically accurate, etc. etc. and be the only truth in the universe in order to make life worth living. Seems to me people found life worth living for YEARS before the Bible was around, but that's just me.

When I got involved (during the dinosaur era of 1970 ) this ministry promoted itself as one devoted to biblical research. The people who witnessed to me claimed that if "we" learned more, we would teach it, that if "we" discovered that "we" were wrong in something we already had taught, we could change as "we" learned new things in research. Sounded good to me. I think vp tried this approach back in Van Wert when he first left the organized church but after the PFAL class was recorded, changing anything in it would have been pretty hard. Even now, although the current twi group no longer runs this original class, I've heard that the teachings are very similar, and the same is pretty much true for some of the twi "offshoot ministries" as they are called. I could be wrong, but that's what I've seen so far on their web sites.

Anyway, some folks seem to like the framework of Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism, but some of us eventually realized that wasn't for us. The sad part for me was that in the end, it became clear that twi had an agenda different than those words I initially heard long ago [not to mention that I discovered how some of the teachings were copied from other people, etc. even though they were claimed to be original twi teachings.]

The Word over the World was the goal, and to my understanding that came to be defined as letting everyone in the world say yes or no to The Word that twi taught. The "accuracy of the Word" was for the most part defined in the PFAL class and other twi teachings.

Perhaps this sheds some light on the topic of this thread...

Life is short. Follow your bliss, as Joseph Campbell would say.

I'm going to do some more gardening while the weather is lovely.

What does it mean-

the destruction of Jerusalem

other 'prophecies' are questioned as to their meaning

why not this one?

A bit on this topic from Karen Armstrong's The Bible, a Biography pg 41:

"[Daniel] was particularly preoccupied by Jeremiah's prediction of the number of years that must pass 'before the successive devastations of Jerusalem would come to an end, namely seventy years.' [refer to Jeremiah 25:11-12 and Daniel 9:3]. The second-century [bCE] author [Daniel] was clearly not interested in the original meaning of the text: Jeremiah had obviously prophesied, in a round figure, the length of the Babylonian exile. He [Daniel] wanted to find an entirely new significance in the ancient oracle that would bring comfort to the Jews who were anxiously awaiting the outcome of the Maccabean wars. This would become typical of Jewish exegesis. Instead of looking back to uncover its historical meaning, the interpreter would make the text speak to the present and the future."

ex-twi folks: Does that last line sound familiar?

~ Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. ~ George Santayana

~ Those who are not curious about the past are never enlightened by it ~ penworks :unsure:

Mmm...this thread has taken several interesting turns! It's fun to see the thinking going on.

Yesterday I attended a graduation at which the commencement speaker encouraged the graduates to continue...are you ready?...READING. It seems to be a lost art. I do feel it is an art....an art of the inquisitive mind.

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a site with textual info and stuff on topics we've been discussing here. For the past 20 years, he's conducted group discussions at his "sunday school" about these topics and found these tapes helpful. Granted, they cost something, but then, doesn't everything?

For free, you read the summaries of the tapes' contents and see what scholar or author is on the tape. Some of them have books you can check out in the library.

Visit www.Teach12.com. On the left, click "Religion" and you'll see a list of topics pertinent to this thread.

See you 'round the forums!

Welcome to the gsc, Ghost, where there's lots of people with lots of ideas, jokes, and well...just plain common sense.

Enjoy!