penworks
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Ask Oldies (or Mike), penworks, but I think the line you just set apart in bold are Mike's words.
Oh, yes, I see that now. Looks like Mike's comment at the end...not RG's. Thanks :)
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Wow. I'm surprised at Research Geek's comment from his above quote dated October 04, 2002:
"Dr not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done for anyone. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate."
Maybe Research Geek has changed his mind since then.
For me, that's an impossible claim to believe anymore.
peace,
penworks
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I think one of the top 10 favorite phrases VPW popularized in twi was, "You have no friends when it comes to the Word." I believe "the Word" was defined by VPW, so if you disagreed with that you were WRONG.
When I left HQ in '87 after 17 years of involvement in twi, several people that I thought had been my closest friends, chose twi and its doctrines over remaining in touch with me...one told me to my face I was deceived by the devil.
But a few stood by me and are still my friends today.
Cheers!
penworks
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A reliable source (IMO) within the last month told me they are back in the USA.
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oops, Happy belated b/day, Socks. It's wonderful to "see" you again after all these years!
Sending peace, joy, and love your way today and every day,
Penworks
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Nothing makes the whole Bible fit together ... the bible history has a very shady history ...
Silly TWI thought my research paper should be in GMIR ... it was just a rehash of Bullinger with a VPW variation (which made no sense ... except to distinguish him from Bullinger) ... and Rear hard or someone stole my intro for a SNS teaching, or did I steal it and he stole it from the same source, I forget. (I asked him and he said he never read my paper that he quoted almost verbatim)
THE Bible history is best studied with books penworks has suggested ... she researched and then went to college to find out what went wrong in her quest for TRUTH.
I respect that ... I came up with something without bothering to check academia ... but "THE BIBLE" is not what we were led to believe ... and if you want to bother with that line of inquisition, I'm pointing to her advice. (and she was second corps I think, if that helps ... )
Since I'm being referred to here, I thought I'd chime in.
Just to clarify: I returned to college post-twi to get a liberal arts education (the word "liberal" in this case does not refer to any political left wing stance or religious stance, but that's another topic). I did read lots of English literature and philosophy etc. that helped me think clearly and logically and exercised my critical thinking capacities. I earned a B.A. in English. I did not get a degree in early Church history or Semetic languages, etc.
I just like to read. I've read things pertaining to the history of the Bible, etc. during and after college.
For a good overview I'd recommend Karen Armstrong's The Bible - A Biography, and her A History of God. Also, for those interested in what interpretation of texts, including the Bible, involves, pick up a copy of A Short Introduction to Hermeneutics by David Jasper. Hermenuetics is just a fancy word to describe our understanding of the nature of texts and how we interpret and use them.
Happy reading/learning/living,
penworks
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Great news! I'll be watching.
peace
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I have been reading Bart Ehrman's works for a couple of years, and have been listening to his lectures. I have to say that I find little to disagree with him about, which has messed with my faith considerably. My faith was based largely on logic and facts that I found in TWI. Now that I've stepped outside the premises, I struggle with the lack of either in the face of historical evidence when combined with the largely dishonest approach to scripture that TWI embraced.
Now I understand why ignorance is bliss and why Christians are told to avoid certain things.
I would argue that ignorance is NOT bliss...ignorance has only hindered me in being a more fulfilled person or one who could better weigh options before making informed decisions. But I'm an obsessed reader and knowledge junkie so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Perhaps this will shed some light, although I can only speak for myself here...For me, reading about the history of Bible texts or any other texts considered sacred in the world is separate from what I feel is an internal spiritual life. I have come to the place that spirituality or "faith" in an unseen creator does not have to depend on knowledge from a book, any book, including the Hebrew scriptures or the diverse collection of documents in the N.T. or the Koran or any Buddhist writings or Shakespeare for that matter.
If it did, we'd be in the soup. Why? We don't have any originals and even if we did, what we'd have are originals of the Hebrew people's mythology (that is not a derogatory term) and the originals of letters in the N.T. to specific groups of people who understood them in a different context and culture than the one we live in. The events surrounding why they were written are long lost to us. In addition, they were understood by people with a world view vastly different than ours (one small example is that they thought the earth was flat) and so their meaning is not necessarily one we would relate to. But that's another huge topic...
For me, the more I explored different religions, the clearer it became that generally people from all cultures throughout time have been using religion as a way to express their understanding of a Creator, to record their perceptions of it, and not to define it accurately or know it completely (well, maybe Paul thought he was doing that but I'm not sure about his agenda). It's the extremists that have made the problems, made the US vs. THEM a problematic attitude about one's religion.
Karen Armstrong is a wonderful writer on this topic. Check out her work on Amazon, especially The Battle for God - The History of Fundamentalism.
So is Joseph Campbell, author of The Power of Myth. Of course, they are not writing from a "Christian" point of view, but from an historian's point of view, just as Bart Ehrman is doing about the history of N.T. texts - and where and how the canon was decided upon. But perhaps this post does not fit into this thread. If a person wants to stick with the Christian frame of reference, which includes that the Bible is God's Word and there's no other way to know Him (or It) than from the Bible and through Jesus Christ, then reading theologically-based works by Christians would be of more interest...
It seems to me that most religions are all pointing to the same star but from different directions. For me, it became important to understand how and why I came to take the Bible as the authority over anything else such as other religious writings, and more importantly, over what I knew was right inside myself.
In this process spanning 20 years since leaving twi, I feel I've gained a more appropriate view about the Bible and so appreciate it differently than I did while in twi. But I'm no scholar or expert. And I'm sure enjoying the journey post-twi.
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One of the things I found intriguing about TWI was its (supposed) slant on research. I've never seen the TWI research library, so I would be interested in what exactly was in the library.
Well, this is a huge can of worms. Many topics here at gsc already have been written on this, so I'm sure you can do a search and find them. Since I worked on the Research Team at HQ from 1984 - 1986, I'll just add a few notes here in bold:
In the research library were some of vpw' old books, both what he read and what he published, various concordances, Greek texts, and books on O.T. history, archaeology etc. The ironic thing is that most of the time the research library went unused by the Way Corps, at least while I was there, and the research team was kept so busy on projects that they only focused on their area of responsibility. In the Rare Book Room there were also some microfilms of Aramaic manuscripts from the British Museum, etc. I've read somewhere lately that there was a copy of J.E. Stiles book on the Holy Spirit which vpw copied extensively from, although I never noticed it there...I was too "busy." Geez...
Did researchers go and visit libraries that contained some of the ancient texts?
Walt#r Cummins, the head of research, was sent to Germany at least once (I think twice) to look at Greek manuscripts in an attempt to discover variants in Greek texts that would back up what vpw believed had to "be the original" according to his own "scope of the Word." Also, one team member went to the Near East to search Syriac texts.
Were different texts used for comparative purposes when arriving at conclusions, or did they simply study texts that were bought for purposes of research?
During 1984-1986 when I was on the team, there were members of the team trained in Greek and Syriac who had been educated at the University of Chicago (I was not one of them, I was merely helping with the Aramaic concordance). Various Greek texts, as well as the Syriac version, which most scholars believe is a translation of the Greek (vpw referred to it as "Estrangelo Aramaic") were consulted. These sources, as well as info about customs and biblical archaeology, etc. were drawn from when putting together the "Literal translations according to usage" under the direction of Wal#er Cummins, the head of Research at the time. These literals were taught to the Way Corps on Corps night each week.
Here is one of the premises that I wonder about:
The Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God, therefore any inconsistencies can be explained by errors in translation or transmission.
That is the typical approach of Bible fundamentalists who argue for inerrancy.
What I saw happen in TWI was the Bible being given an extreme makeover to satisfy the above premise, which included the genealogy sections, 5 crucified, how many times the cock crowed, and most of the events leading up to the crucifixion, the crucifixion, the burial, and the resurrection; namely because not one of these accounts in the 4 gospels agree (completely) with the others.
..."the Bible being given an extreme makeover"... IMO, this is the understatement of the century.
...included the genealogy sections, 5 crucified, how many times the cock crowed, and most of the events leading up to the crucifixion, the crucifixion, the burial, and the resurrection;
And there are reasons for this...vpw used the works of E.W. Bullinger, etc. as the basis of his theology. Note: You probably know this, but the gospels were written by different people, at different times, with different interpretations of who/what JC was. Scholars agree that Mark was used as a source for Matthew and Luke. John was written last. A good source for info on the first century mess that is called Christianity, and on the history of the texts that were put together and called The Bible, is Bart Ehrman who has written extensively on this topic.
While it was obvious (mostly after the fact) that no real research was going on, what were the researchers actually doing?
Well, I can tell you this from my own observations and experience that from 1984 - 86 research projects included:
1) doing the research for the Bible Lands Tour which launched in October 1985.
2) collaborating as a team with Walt@r Cummins to produce "literal translations according to usage" of scriptures that were taught to the Way Corps
3) advising in-resident Way Corps members on the research papers they had to produce in order to graduate
4) producing the Aramaic (Syriac) concordance and interlinear, which had gone on for many many many years
5) answering letters from people "on the field" who had questions about research, some of which were published in the Way Magazine
6) writing articles for the Way Magazine in the biblical research section called GMIR (that word is the transliteration of the Syriac letters for the word meaning "to perfect, accomplish, complete' arithmetically to be divisible without any remainder." This was to support vpw's idea that the scripture could be "rightly divided" and fit with a "mathmatical exactness and scientific precision."
7) those with college degrees taught research classes on various topics at the College of Emporia, Indiana Campus, and to the in-rez Corps at HQ in Ohio.
8) and dealing with a myriad of other things that led me to resign in 1986.
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...No! It can't be! You mean I was tricked?![/color][/i][/b] But I think that phase is a normal reaction – part of our defense mechanism to deny thoughts & feelings that could cause more anxiety – making things even worse. Maybe it buys us some time – to let our heads "catch up" and fully process what actually happened.
A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: “Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information.” Pg. 107. Our task, it seems to me, is to first be aware these exist and then try and offset them with reality checks. For me, reality checks include listening to other people, reading a lot, and making more time for contemplation and reflection on my life than modern society normally allows. Hey, no one said it's easy.
Cheers,
Your neighborhood book hound, Penworks
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... I thought the whole point of the ministry was to RESEARCH and FIX stuff if they found something wrong - not just keep the same stagnant crud year after year. Ugh.
Right. I thought that was the point, too, back in 1970 when someone talked me into taking PFAL. I admit, they didn't have to twist my arm too hard, since I was so hungry for "answers."
Too bad VP did not allow for much FIXING...especially after the PFAL class was filmed. Couldn't redo it after all that $$ was spent!
Oakspear - congrats on your 7th anniversary. My 21st is this month.
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Ever since I have been in ex-way communities, I am absolutely fascinated that people can take or leave many Way doctrines but they hold on for dear life to JCING. Here's a thought, what if that book is wrong? It's just like believing. The Way really made it out to be telling God what to do, instead of the more humble approach of asking. Similarly, I think an honest look at JCING is worth doing. Just a few years prior to that book, where did VP stand?
Paw - Someone who might be able to shed light on your question about where vp might have stood just prior to JCNG being published is DWBH. My own 2 cents:
When I was about 12 yrs. old, (yeah yeah back in the dark ages
) my mother and I sat in a pew on Good Friday at St. Francis de Sales Catholic Church. We were supposed to contemplate on the crucifixtion and what it meant for Jesus to die for us. Jesus, who of course was the second person of the Trinity, was also fully man, and fully God. As expected, I was also taking catechism classes at Catholic school and had it pounded into my pea brain that God was the creator who kept the universe in order, for instance He was busy preventing Earth from crashing into Mars, etc. So out of boredom or a trouble making impulse, or something, I leaned over and asked my mom, if JC was God, but he died and was dead for three days and three nights, who kept the universe in order while he was dead since that was his job as God? She frowned and said it was a mystery. Did not make sense to me.
Then in high school, I got involved with Young Life. My local leader made a point, for some reason, of pointing out the word "trinity" was not found in the N.T. and so wasn't "true." He made that claim on the basis that the N.T. (at least his copy of Good News for Modern Man) contains the entire truth of God's Word, so if the trinity ain't in there, it ain't true. Made sense to me
By then I was starting to question the authority of my Catholic church. Mmm...not unlike in the tradition of someone named Martin Luther, but of course I was too young, too uneducated, and too shy to nail anything on any front door of any cathedral and cause an uproar. But then of course I had never heard of Martin Luther yet, either.
Then, in Dec. 1970 I took PFAL and don't remember hearing the word "trinity", only that JC was the son of God. Made sense to me. (Of course, vp had a way of making many things seem as if they made sense, since you barely had time to think about what he was saying nor the implications of what he said.)
Then, I left twi in 1987 and decided I didn't know anything for sure.
Most people here probably know that the trinity was "invented" long after Jesus died and this "trinity" became a major church doctrine. It was an attempt to identify just who or what JC was since there were so many conflicting ideas floating around (ref. books like Lost Christianities - The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew and you'll get a good overview). The debate continues to this day, obviously. Makes it up in the air for me.
I'm inclined to think JC was a man, although an enlightened one and definitely worth reading about in the N.T. and other documents.
But then you should know that I'm a person who does not hold to the idea that the Bible is "perfect" nor contains everything we might ever learn about what people call "God." BTW - Has anyone read The History of God by Karen Armstrong? I know Socks has.
Cheers!
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I would be interested to know if those professional counselors are still in TWI ... or if they left and are in a splinter ... or when they left ... since you mentioned the comments from penworks, which are indeed helpful, i was wondering about this ...The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that.
Does TWI allow some of those professionals to help? Or are they still using holy water and silver bullets? Or are those professionals still in TWI, putting on bandaids, as they compromise their "secular/worldy" training to "make it accurate" according to da wuhrd?
The splinters have maybe progressed a little, how could they exist without some changes? ... But given the spiders in the noses type rev' that was reported ... it seems some ministers have their own schizophrenia ... or whatever ...
Since I'm getting quoted here, I figured I'd respond to this. In my comments about people in twi getting college degrees: vpw's comments that I heard were specifically in reference to the ECU guys finishing their degrees before they went in the Corps so that they'd have a worldly credential along with their Way training. He thought this would give them entry into leadership circles out in the world where they could witness and win people for twi. Without a degree, there would be a more limited way of reaching people. I venture to say that this idea continued well into the future. It also included gaining "sense knowledge" that could be evaluated and "made accurate" and useful to twi (like he used to change words in songs to make them more accurate with his version of the Bible).
That said, I would never, I repeat never, mean to say that anyone who got any degree accomplished that ONLY to serve twi's purposes. Knowing some of the people DBWH mentioned (in the thread about TWI vs Therapeutic Relationships), I'm venture to say that in their hearts they genuinely wanted to help people. Who knows what is in a man or woman's heart anyway? The problem is that because twi was a closed system, these trained people in counseling were in a very odd situation when counseling, to say the least. DWBH outlined those issues already.
Peace,
Penworks
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hi greasespotters!
many posts through the years here at the spot, have detailed the spotty "doctrines and practices" of the approved methodology of "pastoral" or "christian" counseling employed and promoted by twi and its "leadership" during its various incarnations
imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?.................................................peace.
Hello DWBH and everyone here,
I've been on vacation so am just now catching up. Boy, this is a critical topic to any discussion of twi, IMO. It is a CRITICAL area of ANY ministry.
I was in an early Corps, before DWBH, and had no focused teaching on counseling people other than using the Dale Carnegie class principles mixed with the Bible. Like when you're counseling a person, "Try to see things honestly from the other person's point of view" and tell them things like, "Live in day tight compartments" to overcome worry. To that, we'd add things like, "Think the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word." The idea was to keep people focused on positive not negative thoughts and we'd point out appropriate Bible verses for them to "renew their mind" in whatever catagory they had a problem. That, of course, fosters denial of stupendous proportions. In that scenario, problems are not really addressed and resolved, only covered over with a bandaid. I can testify to that!
When I graduated from the Corps in 1973, got married, and went to L.A. for our first assignment, I was scared to death of counseling. It was not clear how to go about handling people's problems except to encourage them to renew their mind to the Way teachings and love one another - and use those Carnegie keys. It's a shame, really. I shudder to think how many people I tried to "help" with these pitiful tools and hope I didn't do too much damage, telling people to just "get committed to the Word" or "let go and let God" so that their problems would be solved. Geez. I did all that myself and I KNOW my problems many times were not solved!
I do remember that any counseling by "outsiders" like psychologists or psychiatrists was definitely "off the Word." You couldn't forbid anyone from gaining that help, but it was labeled as "sense knowledge" and even worse, as DWBH mentioned, vpw said it had its roots in spiritualism (the devil's country), not the accuracy of The Word. So I never suggested that to anyone; we just tried to discern any devil spirits and pray for people.
One thing I was confused about was regarding the manifestations of the spirit, like discerning of devil spirits, which we were supposed to "operate" in order to help people. If, for instance, being homosexual automatically meant a person had a devil spirit of homosexuality, but the only way you (as their leader) could know whether that person had such a devil spirit was by "operating discerning of spirits" then how come by just looking at them or being around them you could tell they were gay? What do I need discerning of spirits for? My 5 senses told me the situation clear enough. I didn't need to "operate" a manifestation of the spirit. I just didn't understand how to tell the difference. I often felt weak spiritually because I was unsure. It just did not add up. BTW - I had a family member who was gay and I resented this whole teaching! I loved that person and accepted her the way she was. I could not accept that she was possessed.
The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that.
Let's all hope people get the kind of help they need when they need it...it's not always easy and sometimes it takes awhile to find the right sort of counsel. But for heaven's sake, who can honestly think Jesus or God or Buddha, or anyone spiritually minded would label people who are trying to provide mental health solutions to others as "of the devil." Let's crawl out of the dark ages...
Peace
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Krysilis,
I, too, am terribly sorry to hear this happened. Thanks for telling us. And thanks to Skyrider, also. My heart just aches for you all and your families.
Perhaps knowing you have supportive people here helps a bit. For me, having known these top "leaders," I am especially terribly sad over all the corruption and hurt through the years that was kept in the shadows from so many of us.
I left HQ in 1987 and have known little about things that happened after that until coming here to gsc. It's about time these stories are told and listened to.
One question: can you tell us what action, if any, you know of that Rev. WC might have taken after this incident? Did he leave HQ then? You can PM me with the answer if you want.
Peace to you.
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I find it quite remarkable that there's still so many (especially in The States) that subscribe to the concept.
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I honestly think that, had we not been given an incredibly forceful a-priori belief at a very early age that there was something really special about The Bible , we wouldn't give any of it a second thought today - if we even knew of it's existence. I think the reverence and abject obeisance to it is stark evidence of the power of a "meme".
Well said, George. And IMO it's quite correct that the poll question frames inerrancy as a "belief." Beliefs can often NOT be proven. Beliefs are powerful, though, as we know from our own experiences in twi.
Anyhow, any good book on the history of the N.T. texts (and Hebrew Bible) describes how and when the canon was formed. It does not seem clear that inerrancy was a claim they made back then - they just figured those documents were inspired and authored by either the original apostles or disciples who were followers of the original apostles. Nor did they think the books were historically "correct" as far as I can find out.
There's much scholarly doubt today that Paul wrote all the N.T. books that are ascribed to him, i.e. I and II Timothy and Titus were NOT written by him, and II Peter was not written by the apostle Peter, etc. There's a lot more of that info out there...
Seems to me that inerrancy is farcical. About 20 years ago I never dreamed I'd ever think this!!!
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For those who did not get this info in college (or anywhere else) but are interested in the first few centuries of "church" history, IMO here is a site worth investigating. The info on the site is in connection with a video documentary put out by Frontline on PBS:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...religion/jesus/
From my local library, I borrowed and watched these videos. I daresay they provide a source of info on this topic that most of us did not get while in twi. Maybe there was a reason...
After gaining this sort of education, some of us pause to question the claim that vpw taught the Word since it had not been known since the first century...
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Has anyone gotten the book yet?
I did. One thing: Because she writes it in present tense, I think the snippets of conversation at the start of each chapter are a good way to show the reader the thoughts of the "present day" Kristen. The story moves along fast, except for the times I have to put it down and mourn over her ordeal for a few minutes.
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Although late, I send you best wishes on your birthday. Hope it was wonderful for you. You've come a long way, lady!
Cheers,
penworks
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My thoughts and prayers are with them all, too. Thanks for these updates.
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For those of us who were around vpw, I think we can verify that the following info written by Dr. Sam Vaknin is a pretty good description of the way vpw (and some other twi leaders) acted much of the time. The court's findings referenced above make a distinction between belief and actions. Actions that betray the trust people put in their religious leaders are WRONG. Actions like the ones described below, IMO, are in this catagory.
Regardless of what vpw or others like him have taught about the Bible, I think it's safe to say it's more than wise to avoid the company of a person who behaves in ways described below, and at the very least we should regard as suspect anything they might teach. Keep in mind that vpw's teachings and the teachings of twi at present are founded on a way of interpreting the Bible that is fabricated by Christian fundamentalists and are not the ONLY or right way to view the books of the Bible... and some of vpw's teachings IMO are downright manipulation of the scriptures, such as 4 crucified, Eli Eli, spiritual adultery, etc. etc. There are many references to these sorts of teachings here at gsc, like the article called Actual errors in PFAL, etc
Info source: http://www.meadowhaven.org/psychissues/cultofnarcissist.html
The Cult of the Narcissist
By: Dr. Sam Vaknin
Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com ) is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Central Europe Review, PopMatters, E-BookWeb, and Bellaonline, and as a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent. He is the the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.
The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock: his spouse, his offspring, other family members, friends and colleagues. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals. The less accomplished he is in reality – the more stringent his mastery and the more pervasive the brainwashing.
The – often involuntary – members of the narcissist’s mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, “enemies”, mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted.
The narcissist’s control is based on ambiguity, unpredictability, fuzziness, and ambient abuse. His ever-shifting whims exclusively define right versus wrong, desirable and unwanted, what is to be pursued and what to be avoided. He alone determines the rights and obligations of his disciples and alters them at will.
The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviors. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals.
The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification. He seeks to control both situations and people compulsively.
He strongly disapproves of others’ personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one’s family require his permission. Gradually, he isolates his nearest and dearest until they are fully dependent on him emotionally, sexually, financially, and socially.
He acts in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes often. He alternates between emphasizing the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the talents, traits and skills (idealizes) of the members of his cult. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations – which legitimizes his subsequent abusive conduct.
The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skillful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.
His thinking is dogmatic, rigid, and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn’t brook criticism and disagreement. He demands – and often gets – complete trust and the relegation to his capable hands of all decision-making.
He forced the participants in his cult to be hostile to critics, the authorities, institutions, his personal enemies, or the media – if they try to uncover his actions and reveal the truth. He closely monitors and censors information from the outside, exposing his captive audience only to selective data and analyses.
The narcissist’s cult is “missionary” and “imperialistic”. He is always on the lookout for new recruits – his spouse’s friends, his daughter’s girlfriends, his neighbors, and new colleagues at work. He immediately attempts to “convert” them to his “creed” – to convince them how wonderful and admirable he is. In other words, he tries to render them Sources of Narcissistic Supply.
Often, his behavior on these “recruiting missions” is different to his conduct within the “cult”. In the first phases on wooing new admirers and proselytizing to potential “conscripts” – the narcissist is attentive, compassionate, empathic, flexible, self-effacing, and helpful. At home, among the “veterans” he is tyrannical, demanding, willful, opinionated, aggressive and exploitive.
As the leader of his congregation, the narcissist feels entitled to special amenities and benefits not accorded the “rank and file”. He expects to be waited on hand and foot, to make free use of everyone’s money and dispose of their assets liberally, and to be cynically exempt from the rules that he himself established (if such violation is pleasurable or gainful).
In extreme cases, the narcissist feels above the law – any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities.
Hence the narcissist’s panicky and sometimes violent reactions to “dropouts” from his cult. There’s a lot going on that the narcissist wants kept under wraps. Moreover, the narcissist stabilizes his fluctuating sense of self-worth by deriving Narcissistic Supply from his victims. Abandonment threatens the narcissist’s precariously balanced personality.
Add to that the narcissist’s paranoid and schizoid tendencies, his lack of introspective self-awareness, and his stunted sense of humor (lack of self-deprecation) and the risks to the grudging members of his cult are clear.
The narcissist sees enemies and conspiracies everywhere. He often casts himself as the heroic victim (martyr) of dark and stupendous forces. In every deviation from his tenets he espies malevolent and ominous subversion. He, therefore, is bent on disempowering his devotees. By any and all means.
The narcissist is dangerous.
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Back to the thread's topic regarding this second interview... Thanks again to Paw and Kristen. I can hardly imagine how challenging it must be to "go on the record" with your story, Kristen. And as difficult as it may be for some people to stomach listening to this sad story, I think it is important to listen. It speaks to many issues surrounding how something like this happens, denial being one of the most powerful ones.
As humans, when we invest our hearts in a cause we believe to be true, we want so badly for it to be true that we'll avoid considering any doubts about its value, often to our own disadvantage, or even our own destruction. Take any intro psychology class and you'll probably learn this or browse the aisle of the self-help section at Borders and you'll see dozens of books on this topic of denial, not to mention cult awareness books...
BTW: Other sources of info that happend to help me leave The Way in 1987:
The Way International and Victor Paul Wierwille published in 1979 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, written by J.L. Williams, ISBN 0-8024-9233-9. It's a little paperback of 159 pages including cult info references, notes, bibliography etc. I first found it in a used bookstore in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1986. It helped me get out of The Way and understand some major issues, and although some of the theological points discussed are not ones I necessarily agreed with, the writer helped open my eyes to some things.
In 1987, a friend recommended reading From Ashes to Gold by Patti Roberts, which tells of her experiences at Oral Roberts University (there are some similarities with The Way Corps training, etc.). She describes her disillusionment with the cause and her eventual divorce from Oral Robert's son, Richard. Although I did not (nor do now) espouse many of her religious beliefs, her understanding of the power that Oral Roberts had over her life and how the groupthink of the organization controlled her were things I could relate to first-hand. To her credit, she began questioning and stood up for herself, got out and started a new life.
Needless to say, I'm surely thankful you did, too, Kristen.
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Penworks you said:
"Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it."
Yet now, you are shutting down the conversation. May I ask why? Is it coming too close to home? Let me assure you, there is nothing "heretical" about questioning God, for the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY is not afraid of your questions, Penworks. HE loves to prove HIMSELF true. Please respond to this. Thanks.
Since this post, much of what Oakspear and Lindy have said pretty much reflect my feelings and thoughts, too. I have no intention [nor the power] of "shutting down the conversation." What I have to add, I feel, is just repetitive of what I've already offered. And besides, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to myself
I'm truly glad you've found a path for you that "works," brideofjc, and ask that you understand I need to be on my way. Let the conversation continue, ya'll!
besides that...we have a family member who is near dying, so I probably won't be around here for awhile.
peace
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Well, thanks everyone for taking the time you have with this topic.
Guess all I have left to say is that I vote for the Golden Rule...
as far as a spiritual journey goes, it's clear each of us has a unique path...
peace
The Renewed Mind
in About The Way
Posted · Edited by penworks
No, you were not the only one with attention that wandered from the tiresome propaganda...
The notion that people can apply this verse is more complicated than I imagined when I took the Renewed Mind class at TWI when I was 19 yrs. It seems to me that TWI used the verse Romans 12:2 (and hundreds more) to justify the claim that by accepting twi teachings, which was equal to thinking "the word," a person would prove the will of God in this world:
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." etc. etc.
This version of this verse, which is a version of a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy etc., is one that most scholars believe was originally written by Paul, unlike other epistles that seem as if he was author, such as the pastoral epistles.
IMO, Paul had something in mind when he wrote this verse, but it's not clear to me what he was referring to, but the people he was writing to probably understood him.
IMO "the world" is a vague term. It's hard to know what he meant since he lived in a vastly different culture than mine --- and a very long time ago: about 2,000 years ago. At any rate, he was often telling people what to do [note: if you believe the bible is the word of God that was sort of dictated to the writers, then I guess that what I have to say doesn't mean anything to you. We'll just agree to disagree on that point].
My point is that TWI wanted us to apply this verse, like many many more, to our modern-day situations without our knowing how or when to do so. Oh, yeah, I forgot. Our spiritual leaders would tell us when and how. Like, telling us that a new person in our fellowship who was asking questions all the time... well, he's "of the world," he's not hungry for the Word, he just wants to argue, so cross him off your list of referrals and don't waste God's time on him.
If I'm going to renew my mind to this verse, what do I identify as "the world"? It sometimes became a matter of shunning things like participating in Halloween, listening to pop music, etc. But then it got confusing when we were supposed to put God's word in culture, too. How would I know when I was really not conforming to the world but somehow re-making the world by re-interpreting it, getting God's Word in it, into the culture, blah blah blah. It became very confusing when I stopped to think about it. So I didn't think about it. I did not really do that until about 15 years into the ministry. Yikes. Then I left.
IMO, this verse also assumes we are sort of like blank slates that can be written on and changed. It only addresses the mind. I have nothing against changing my mind in an effort to be more loving, more patient, etc. But clearly this dictate from Paul does not consider emotions, the complex nature of the brain, concepts like nature vs. nurture, etc.
To be fair, how could Paul address these things? Which is part of my point. I have found that this book, the Bible, [which is an anthology, which carries its own issues, as such] is rarely relevant to my life. I soul searched this question: What value is this ancient text to my daily life now? Well, if I cherry-pick some "positive" verses like ones about love that are used at weddings all the time, I feel good. But is that necessary? [i'll refrain from expanding on this].
Here's a link to a talk by someone who IMO has something to add to the conversation about behavior and what makes us the way we are:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/steven_...lank_slate.html
peace,
penworks