penworks

WHOA!......."under lcm they really were not a 'research ministry' as they claimed"...

What about UNDER WIERWILLE they really were not a research ministry? Even a GS-poster who was ON twi's research team claimed that wierwille stifled or skewed the 'research.' Or, what about the wholesale plagairism? Is that 'research?'

Could it be that some are STILL trying to sell the wierwille-adulation?

Add a couple of words...."under lcm"....and the agenda becomes clear.

:blink:

Hi everyone,

This is Charlene (Bishop) Edge, former Research Team member 1984-1986 (Aramaic projects). The discussion Skyrider cites can be found at this GSC topic, "what scripture refers to" at:

VPW research methods

minicorpse...

Thanks so much for sharing your story! You will never know how many other lives you will impact because you did... an amazing amount of people come here and read and learn and heal, and your story tells a side we don't hear as often: the kids' point of view.

I'm so sorry for what you went through, but so glad to hear you are making a great life for yourself. I hope the therapy helps you put all the crap behind you for good.

THW

Dear Minicorpse,

I, too, thank you for writing your story here and am deeply saddened by what happened to you by people who claimed to love you.

You are brave. I admire you and cheer you on in your recovery!

Charlene a.k.a. Penworks here at GSC

Today I can add another name of a contributor to the work on the Aramaic Concordance: Gertrude Paulson. 8th Corps graduate.

Charlene,

Thank you for the clarification and your hard work. I still own all of the volumes and have used them on many occasions. One of your fellow 2nd corps grads was a friend and filled me in on the hard work that went into the project. One great use I found was to read parts of it to my kids when they were younger. King James is a bit much for kids but your translations were so much more approachable.

JT

Dear JT,

Thanks for your comment. I'm glad you enjoy using the Interlinear, although I think we're talking about two different publications. You are referring to the Interlinear, I'm talking about the Concordance.

The Concordance was not the translation of the N.T. but the other one-book publication that came out in 1985 several years before the line-by-line Interlinear translation that you have in several volumes. It's like Strong's or Young's Concordance that lists words, their definition, and where they appear in the text. There's a companion volumne that is English to Syriac (Aramaic) that we also produced that would help people use the Concordance.

Now, the translation that appears in the Interlinear you have began in full force after the Concordance came out in August 1985. Joe Wise did all the translation for it except of the Book of Revelation. I only helped in minor ways by checking and editing a little bit.

So why did he stop at the Book of Revelation in the translation for the Interlinear?

In March 1986 LCM told Walter Cummins to tell Joe he must discontinue working on the project; that as of August 1986 he would no longer have a job at HQ because he was "too academic." At the time, the ministry was in an uproar after Chris Geer read his Passing of the Patriarch in April and everything was being - how would you say - challenged? In my opinion, this was a terrible mistake.

Keep in mind, this is my view of what happened. But I was in the research dept. from Aug 1984- Aug 1986 and worked on this project.

When Joe had to leave in August 1986, I resigned from research. This is a long story I do not plan to write on this web site. Suffice it to say, another Corps grad was brought on staff to finish the translation for the Interlinear. I personally do not know whether that person made any changes to the translation that Joe had already written.

So the lawsuit cited at the beginning of this post that TWI is bringing against the group in Texas asserts that they stole the translation (the one you have in several volumes) that we originally worked on. What that final translation that was published contains exactly, I do not know because I was not there to see whether the other Corps person who came after us changed Joe's translation or not. And I do not have a copy of Joe's original translation.

Hope this clarifies things for you. Contact me any time.

Editorial comment on my original post's comments on the first page:

I covered many topics in that post. Reviewing it now, it's clear I covered too many. I failed to explain each one enough. Please keep in mind I do not always do my best writing when I'm addressing emotionally charged topics, so in retrospect I'd try and not to come off so snippy in some of my remarks. I apologize for the tone of it in some places, but that does not mean I do not stand by my opinions or my views.

Karen Armstrong said something that I try to keep in mind when I speak or write, but I am guilty of doing it over and over. She said something like, "Some people would rather be right than compassionate." I do not want to be one of those people. My hope is to become a person who can do both at the same time. It ain't always easy.

Cheers,

Charlene L. Edge

a.k.a. Penworks

ps - Today, in the thread "A New Lawsuit" I gave my name and will from now on.

VPW, as far as working on these Aramaic projects himself, had NOTHING to do them - not with the translation, interlinear, or concordance. He was interested in producing them, however, because George Lamsa steered him in that direction, claiming Aramaic was the original written language of the scriptures. Other than supporting the work with his interest and using ministry funds to pay Corps people to work on these projects, VPW was not directly involved.

I know. I helped work on these projects in minor ways, doing editing and checking, and was part of the group who completed the Concordance in 1985. My training was primarily from Bernita Jess, the woman who "coordinated" Aramaic studies for years in TWI. There are other threads here on GSC about all this...

Dan Mc*&(%$, who is mentioned above, did not work on these projects while I was involved. He does have a degree from Unvi. of Chicago and focused on Aramaic, but did other textual research and was "stationed" at the Emporia campus, not HQ where these projects were done.

The other people besides me who did work on the Aramaic projects are people I'm not sure want their identies mentioned here. They had degrees and training in Syriac from the Univ. of Chicago. The translation involved in this lawsuit, as far as I know (it was completed after I resigned from the Research Team at HQ in 1986), was not plagiarized. From what I've seen on the Internet at various sites, it is respected as a decent research tool for those interested in such things.

Cheers!

I'm writing this additional bit to clarify what I said above. First, I'd like to say my name is Charlene Edge. While in The Way, my maiden name was Charlene Lamy; my married name was Charlene Bishop. I graduated from the Second Way Corps in 1973.

Credits: In the above post, I did not state the names of those who worked on the this Concordance because I did not feel comfortable doing so. My reason was NOT because they are trying to hide their identities or are not proud of their work. On the contrary! It is a work to be proud of! I simply did not have their consent on hand to name them.

First, many of us know that Bernita Jess began the Aramaic/Syriac work for The Way in the early 1970s. Over the years, beginning in 1972 while in the Way Corps when VPW assigned me to work with Bernita, I began to help her in minor ways. As the Corps groups grew in numbers, so did Bernita's helpers.

The Concordance published in August 1985. By this time, the primary person responsible for bringing this Concordance to completion was Joe Wise, an 8th Way Corps graduate. He told me I could release his name here. Joe earned his Masters Degree in Near Eastern Studies from the University of Chicago, gaining this specific academic training in order to work on the Aramaic/Syriac projects at The Way International. An article came out in The Way Magazine, July/August 1985 that describes the project and states the names of contributors.

Frankly, it was painful to find out that so many people, both in and out of The Way, do not know who is responsible for that research publication other than the fact that The Way International published it. To the best of my remembrance, The Way ministry put no names on their book publications other than VPW's or Walter Cummins's, at least while I was there. In the front matter of the Concordance, it simply states, "Edited by The Way International Research Team." Since members of the team changed over the years, no one would know which members did the work.

A little more background: About a year before its publication, Bernita had some family issues that took her away from the project for awhile, namely the unfortunate death of her husband, George Jess. Then Joe Wise, because of his academic training and ability, assumed the leading role.

I hope this helps the discussion. You can contact me through my profile on this web site if you have any further questions.

Cheers!

Charlene a.k.a. Penworks

The CRIME of "Threatening and Intimidating" is, in many instances a felony.

Arizona Criminal Code on Threatening or Intimidating

Arizona Revised Statutes cover this in Title 13 (Criminal Code), in Chapter 12 (Assault and related offenses). In other words, legally speaking, it is considered violent crime.

Wow.

Not only did I make grave errors in judgment when getting involved with TWI, but I was seduced by big fat claims about the nature of the system I was in. It claimed to be a biblical research ministry but it is extreme fundamentalism. I suggest more of us get informed not only about how cults function but what fundamentalism is and the history of its development. It’s not only a way of interpreting the bible but a way of existing in the world.

I thought this was a good video dealing with fundamentalism in support of your statement that "it is a way of existing in the world".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsAbgfAGzlE

Wow.

Thanks for the kind reply! How long have you been out?

Since 1987.

Dear Penworks,

... I do not agree with you that the TWI/offshoot experience is simply wrong or bad.

Dear Bishop,

My intention is to show that nostalgia for the "old days" does not serve us well. Also, I hoped to point out what many people miss and that is: that the foundation of the TWI/offshoot groups is Fundamentalism. If people don't know that, it sometimes makes it harder to understand the experience. Understanding my experience and creating a new life - not thinking "the old days" were so good when they were built on a faulty foundation which I think Fundamentalism provides - was my intention in this post.

If you feel your experience was good for you, great. For many others theirs was not. Mine was a mix. Sometimes it helps to know more information that can clear up foggy issues about the past. For me, understanding Fundamentalism was a huge relief...it made it possible for me to explore more of the history of the kind of thinking and the kind of bible study I had been caught up in. That system puts people at a disadavantage by keeping them locked in from considering other valid and wonderful ways of being in the world. These are only a few of my many thoughts on this, so I feel it's best to let this go for now. If you are interested, I would be happy to provide you with some book titles on the subject.

I wish you the best in your journey. It's yours. Cherish it.

Peace,

Penworks

So many things.....but when I reflected back on some of these things, this is what struck me:

Transition and Transference

Thanks for this well put explanation.

It surely is important to remember that many younger people are vulnerable during transition times...I'll dare say people at any age in various stages of change are especially vulnerable. My story is a little like what you described...in college, away from home, looking for answers, etc.

While in TWI, in regards to methods for witnessing: I remember being encouraged to check newspaper obituaries and contact the families of the deceased. The reason: they would need to know the truth about death, etc. and so might be very open to taking PFAL. Their obvious vulnerability was a red flag. Their broken hearts feed for preying upon.

I shudder to remember such things. I never followed that marketing advice, thank goodness. It was and is a repulsive and inhumane idea to me.

Linda......I think Kevlar is referring to 1982.

Weren't you on hq staff at the time? Perhaps, that is why you didn't get that letter or albums?

Just saying.....

The auditorium was still being built when I got to HQ in August 1984.

Thanks for the comment but I have a question: does possessing a gun and using it to intimidate, as you say, mean a person is violent or has the potential for being violent?

I don't doubt that there were some gun toting folks, waysider; I knew of certain bodyguards back in 1976-1977 who carried firearms to protect VP when a bunch of us went to Minnesota for a meeting.

Now if my friend had asked whether TWI PROMOTES violence publically as part of their dogma which thinking back on the context of our conversation is really what she meant, my "No" seems accurate not only regarding "the old VP days" but also for the version of TWI that exists today.

I do remember there were teachings (1970-1987) that included something like this: If we lived in Old Testament times, we could execute the unbelievers like Israel did.

I find that alarming and disgusting at best.

On TV I hear similar allusions cited on the fundamentalist/evangelist megachurch channels. Tomorrow is Sunday...maybe I'll tune in and get a few examples...maybe I won't. I have other things to do.

Today a friend of mine asked me why anyone who never heard of The Way (she was one before she met me) would care about what goes on in groups like that...are they violent? No, I said. Should I be afraid of them? she wondered. Well, that depends on a lot of things...

Her questions gave me pause. She asked me whether this group or groups like it were extreme like the Islamic Extremists she sees on T.V. Well, I said, the same kind of extreme us vs. them thinking goes on, and there are some extreme ideas about theology and behavior modification techniques, and other features you find in cults. But personally I never heard violence promoted in twi, although others say they did. Some members also witnessed some gun waving (I didn't)and I experienced emotional and verbal violence. I'm still thinking of ways to answer her initial question about whether she should fear them...I personally think since she's educated about cults she shouldn't...but then, if enough extremists register to vote and gain politial power to make decisions that affect the rest of us, well...then...

Anyhow, there's a web site called T.E.D. I go to for "ideas worth spreading." I came across this one about violence and thought some of you might find it pertinent to this topic. Enjoy.

I tried to embed the video but that feature didn't work.

Here's the link.

Thanks Waysider. Does that mean he doesn't have his own operation? Only licenses his class to others? As an aside, is gun ownership a requirement for taking his class? ;-)

JT

It means he still palms himself off as the last true defender of the true VP doctrine...

http://wordcentered.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=133&Itemid=28

Good grief. Another offshoot. I remember this guy.

This just is another example of the downside of religious freedom in this country...start a non-profit (although looks like a for-profit outfit) and you too can "hold forth" your version of The Word.

What's the answer to this madness? Education. Education. Education. But that takes time and effort. Few seem to want to make that investment.

"Just seems like very few SHOUT FROM THE HOUSETOPS the twisting of scripture, the deceitful doctrines, the lewd behavior, the secret agendas, the wierwille idolatry, the pyramid of power, the raping and abortions, the wholesale plagiarism, the cult mentality and isolation, the use and abuse of way corps, the grooming of lcm/geer in the image of wierwille, etc..

How many splinter groups/ wierwille-imposters are there nowadays, anyway>??????"

Penworks response: One is too many.

Yes, I remember it when it was built. How could I forget it? I was there opening night. Oh the drama.

It originally was supposed to have a research library in it but that got scrapped. I noticed huge paintings of VP in there on the wall, though.

I remember the Corps night we got locked in there to listen to Chris Geer spout his stuff he said that VP said that he said ...blah blah blah

I remember the gross Athletes of the Spirit performance on that high priced technical stage.

I remember the ... oh forget it.

There was a real reason why there were so few mature adults that bought into WayWorld dogma. A modicum of wisdom was all that was needed to decern the B.S. It really was pretty obvious to most anyone but inexperienced kids.

Well I suspect it might be more complicated than that. I don't think the human mind is as strong as we'd like to believe. There was some pretty intense indoctrination going on even with adults.

Over the years I've thought about those adults (over 35 yrs. old :-) who got involved while I was in. That was 1970-1987. There were several entire families in together; some of the parents ended up in the Corps. Because of their presence, I've hesitated to say it would be easier to spot falacies in logic, etc. if we'd been older. Older doesn't seem to matter. There were highly skilled professionals active in the ministry: i.e. a surgeon, teachers, etc. and even in the second Corps someone over 30 had a PhD in Literature!

In my view, whatever deep needs people had in their hearts, no matter what their age (and there were plenty of old timers around by the time I left) drew them to TWI and kept them there. Most of us have heard this before: the need for belonging, for simple answers from the Bible which was held to be the Word of God, etc. People's particular needs combined with the certainty of answers given spells committment to the one handing out the answers, it seems...

I'm not sure people's comments are showing up on the blog.

If you think comments made here are missing, I guess you need to contact the administrators.

Penworks, Thanks so much for posting this. I read it on another web site as well. I would like to copy and paste this if it's okay with you. I know a young 26 year old man who seems to think the adversary has just recently infiltrated TWI (his words not mine) and he's involved with a splinter group that celebrates Wierwille's life, teachings, message.

It's okay with me if you want to send the post to someone to help them out.

Good morning everyone. Just checking in with my morning cup of coffee in hand and was shocked to read what's been going on while I snoozed away here in sunny Florida.

A quick update from my chair: Everything I write or say I take responsibility for, as we all do. My intent is to speak my mind on things which may be useful to others and do it not with the intention to harm. Then let the chips fall where they may. After reading all these recent posts, I signed into the other site and read those as well.

After much thought, I deleted this pesky post from the other site and sent a polite message to the owner. I did that out of respect for the owner's rules which before this incident were not so clear to me. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted this material there to begin with.

Anyway, it's wonderful to read such thoughtful replies both here and from people there who left comments. In both places there are some insightful and informative things said about the topics in the post. Believe me, I've put a lot of thought into these matters for more than 20 years and feel compelled to share what I've learned. About our lives, no one can speak for us other than our own voices. I'll leave you with my favorite quote on this theme:

"If we refuse to do the work of creating this personal version of the past, someone else will do it for us. That is the scary political fact. 'The struggle of man against power,' Milan Kundera's hero in The Book of Laughter and Forgetting says, 'is the struggle of memory against forgetting.' He refers to willful political forgetting, the habit of nations and those in power to deny the truth of memory in order to disarm moral and ethical power. It is an efficient way of controlling masses of people." From the book, I Could Tell You Stories by Patricia Hampl, pg.32.

Cheers! Enjoy your day!

Penworks

I agree . . . . It wasn't until the later corp people started to rule that TWI became completely nuts . . . . I think there was a lot of value in the whole thing before this points. I think there is a lot of value in many of the offshoots who went back to the good old days too.

I disagree. Here's why.

I understand how some people may think The Way was good “in the old days” and somehow “got off track” in later years. But I take issue with this line of thinking. I call it deluded nostalgia: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition. What exactly is that condition people are craving? I was involved from 1971-1987 and I don’t crave any of it. But I figure I’d pitch in my two cents here.

Frankly, I think it appears to be nostalgia for small fellowships with rock music or old hymns “corrected to be accurate” with Way doctrine, simple teachings (I guess), and camaraderie with others who thought like we did, and learning “what the Bible says.” On the surface, these things seem fairly harmless. But when I really think about the “old TWI days,” and these activities, I come up with some concerns:

1. The simplistic idealism that we could save the world with cut and dry Bible answers

2. The lack of mature dealings in the world. I was addressed as a child and kept from growing up while in the Corps and afterwards,

3. The gross neglect of my critical thinking faculty

4. The fact we were supposed to sell the PFAL class to people in order for VP to approve of our lives

5. The issue of whether we were “helping people” by using tools belonging to VP’s brand of fundamentalism

6. As far as I know, some still think they helped people with “the Word.” But what exactly is “The Word?” It’s very vague to me. My understanding is that when a phrase is used, there’s a definition for it somewhere. I don’t know of one for “The Word.” It is a phrase thrown around as if we all know what it means. This reminds me of the fairytale about the Emperor’s new clothes. The fact was: Emperor was not wearing any clothes. I don’t think anyone knows what The Word is.

7. Suffice it to say here, the usual explanation by TWI people and former TWI people for what “The Word” is goes something like this: you have to “use certain keys to research to discover what the original Word was.” Whose keys to research? How come we so readily accepted VP’s which he took from various other people who were fundamentalists? If it were so simple to know “The Word,” how come so many diverse interpretations persist?

But back to the good old days. Let’s say the “good old Way days” were good after all, although this is hard for me to fathom. What exactly is being referred to by this claim? IMO, VP created some sense of community with some people for awhile, but what was that based upon? The way I see it, it was based on an agreement that VP’s teachings were God’s Word, on the commitment to the common cause of VP’s delusion of “moving The Word over the World,” and on a simple love for other people - as long as they obeyed what VP said was The Word. If they didn’t, at the very least they were not as spiritual as we were; at the very worst they were “born of the seed of the devil.”

Let’s not forget, however, that this conditional camaraderie came at a price: It was held together by a patriarchal system fraught with deception and power struggles, not to mention rampant sexual, fiscal, and emotional abuse.

In my view, wishing for “the good old days of The Way” denies the nature of the group itself – a fundamentalist, narrow-minded, anti-Christian movement. Why do I say it is anti-Christian? Because people were used as a means to an end. What was the end? Believe that what VP taught was the truth. Evangelize. Sell PFAL classes. Behave according to what The Way leadership dictated.

Nostalgia for the old days also seems to deny the fact that from its inception, the cult was engineered by V.P. Wierwille, who claimed, like Paul in the New Testament, that he heard an audible voice from a monotheistic God adopted from another culture from thousands of years ago (or the voice of Jesus, as in Paul’s case) that no one else heard. This raises all sorts of issues too complex to get into here I think.

While I met many good people whose kindness made me feel loved, during my TWI years, VP’s teachings, such as telling me I was “more than a conqueror” did not help me resolve problems I brought into The Way with me. For awhile, it engendered a positive attitude in me but it did not produce a healthy self image or tolerance, understanding and compassion for others who might not agree with what I believed. I think the doctrines in many instances only instilled a good deal of denial about myself, the good in the world, other cultures, and denial about what it means to be human.

When I first took PFAL, at 18 years old, I certainly was gullible to The Way’s “answers” but the human brain is not even fully developed until 23 or 24 years old so that’s part of this scenario, too. But I also readily admit that I consciously turned a deaf ear to people who warned me not to get involved.

Not only did I make grave errors in judgment when getting involved with TWI, but I was seduced by big fat claims about the nature of the system I was in. It claimed to be a biblical research ministry but it is extreme fundamentalism. I suggest more of us get informed not only about how cults function but what fundamentalism is and the history of its development. It’s not only a way of interpreting the bible but a way of existing in the world.

... when you've been in TWI for decades and you've heard both explicitly and implicitly that the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word, then you've got a much narrower scope of who you are and who you can be and what you can do.

Indeed! I hope this web site can open some former members' eyes (and current ones) about other options for a good, ethical, and productive life. Self confidence is the first step...I know it was for me.

Thanks for the updates.

Geer's unquestioning dedication to VP doctrine is astounding...but not so suprising...as is most of the splinter groups' promoters. They show how powerful indoctrination can be. When critics scoff at the idea of mind control being a real issue in extremist groups, I think they're missing out on a good long look at examples like this...

Does anyone know whether Geer's class is still being conducted? Not that I hope so...

For info about him and his PFAL spin-off class refer to:

Chris Geer's TWI offshoot class

I agree that the so-called Law of Believing is a major problem that keeps being propounded. But I would go further than that. IMO it's the underlying assumption that the Bible has all the answers to life's problems and must be without error.

Due to the preliferation of spin-off groups based on VPW's research, I'd say the indoctrination techniques in TWI, particularly regarding research, were more powerful than some people might think.

Here's a good example: From The Cult that Snapped by Karl Kahler:

Bible Lands research issues