penworks

"Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship"

We happened to be in the corps with this guy and his family and for what it's worth, he/they were good-hearted people who weren't on the take. They seemed to really want to help other people. We haven't communicated with them in over 20 years, so who knows how they've changed and whether or not they ever sat down and took a hard look at vp & co. Either way, it's still hard to believe that there are so many groups out there still doing this.

While it's possible to be good hearted, not abusive, not "on the take," which the people running this group very well may be, that is beside the point IMO. It is still possible to be misled, and then, although you didn't originate the doctrines you perpetuate, be held responsible for continuing to propound those doctrines as "truth."

My questions about doing this are many. Some are:

Is this the best way to help people?

Is "The Word" so plainly obvious for all to see?

If so, why are there so many divergent groups and interpretations?

These are old questions, I know.

IMO, it's important to keep in mind that just because people start a spin-off of TWI does not imply they are bad people. What I do think it does show or seem to indicate is that are still convinced they were taught "the accuracy of the Bible" by VPW. To me that fact is important to know when considering how to evaluate a spin-off or whether or not to "join" it.

Can't find it?

Here ya go...

The splinter group business

Thanks for the warning geez is this ever gonna stop! Offshoots teaching the same lame lies.

Refer to the topic, The Slinter Group Business, for three more named groups involving Way Corps grads.

Does it ever occur to anyone (other than me, I guess), that maybe, just maybe, there's a finite amount of wisdom that can be gleaned from The Bible? What, 66 books, a lot of which are nothing more than letters - and not even particularly long letters, and the Jewish and Christian communities have dedicated CENTURIES, nay MILLENNIA, and untold resources, Universities, Institutes, countless committees and groups, and even more individuals, to examining every jot and tittle (quite literally) of this one manuscript? You'd think that maybe we'd have gotten a handle on it by now, wouldn't you? But NOOOOOO!

We have to have a whole bunch more pencil-necked geeks to instruct us in what The Bible REALLY says! And, evidently, we need more every few days!

Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...

You might be interested in reading, The End of Biblical Studies by Hector Avalos.

The End of Biblical Studies

Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship

Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship

This one is run by a Family Corps grad but he was not a part of the Research Team.

Two more spin-off groups involving Way Corps graduates, each of whom were on the Way's Research Team in the 1980s:

Light of the Word Ministry

and

Christian Leadership Training

Like all things twi.....more hoops were continually added to the "training" process.

Take pfal....then intermediate....and later, the advanced class to be "fully instructed." THEN.....you really need to take other "advanced studies" classes ie The Renewed Mind, Witnessing and Undershepherding, The Way Tree, Keys to Biblical Research, Dealing with the Adversary, etc.

Go WOW.....grow 10 years in 1 year. You've got to go, to know.

Go WOW again....this time, do it better. Do it right.

Go Corps....spiritual training for God's best twig coordinators. Upon graduation, go forth to serve.

BUT......many 3rd, 4th and 5th corps were "invited" back for another inresidence block.

The first and second corps were also brought back in for another year of indoctrination.

I'm posting this link because I've been asked about this group. It is a spinoff group of twi.

Capital Area Biblical Studies Fellowship

I too am very distressed - to say the least - to read this topic and my heart goes out to you, Brainfixed. This is a shocking thing you said, "how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives."

I joined twi in 1970 and left in 1987. Never did I hear this. It's an understatement to say this is a hideous and dangerous belief. And twi said it was Christian??!!!

I think you've raised an excellent point - the fear used to keep members from questioning twi teachings. It's an important one especially for anyone wrestling with old twi doctrines and trying to decide which ones are "accurate" and which ones to toss out (I say begin by learning how documents in the bible became scripture in the first place, who wrote them and when, etc. but that's another topic).

IMO opinion, the problem persists even post-twi. Many twi splinter groups seem to miss this point entirely because they continue to propound twi teachings.

Anyhow, thanks for the effort you put into describing this process of fear motivation used to get people to stick with twi's interpretation of the bible. Nothing like using the boogy man to make people afraid and keep 'em in line. It's an old method used by plenty of religions and groups around the world but becoming aware of it is the first step up to enlightenment, in my view.

Hi everyone,

I came across this article in the NY Times archives today and thought some of you might want to read it. It's an older one, from 1982, but some newbies here might benefit from it especially.

The Psychology of the Cult Experience

Cheers!

"they [TWI leaders] must apologize to and ask forgiveness from all those whom they have despitefully used, made merchandise of, lied to, and stolen from, and they must do so publicly! no more hiding behind their walls of zion!"

This is a wonderful wish. If only wishes came true.

I also looked at the Susan Blackmore presentation.

It gives additional credence to the rewiring theory.

Just some thoughts:

I also viewed Susan Blackmore's talk and she surely has a point about immitating being powerful. But it is a theory. Theories are not written in stone. In a way I think she lends credence to the rewiring theory, but she also left me wondering how stedfast the effects of immitation really are since people change and thinking and believing are mysterious things, influenced by many forces.

I'm no professional on this topic, but it seems true that we are complex humans who have all sorts of ways to "weed out" some kinds of information and latch onto others that suit us at any given time; we don't always fit the theories. As we all seem to realize, each person is different and got into and out of twi for different reasons and often in vastly different circumstances.

A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy...

So what does it take? For me, the system showed itself broken and I had to face the fact there were better ways of thinking and living that would help me...that's an understatement for those of you who wonder...

Visit this T.E.D. talk by former moonie & deprogrammer, Diane Benscoter, about how the human brain is changed by the circular logic, etc. of extreme dogmatic groups.

Diane Benscoter's T.E.D. talk

I think she may be right about how impenetrable circular logic can be, although for many of us who left TWI, for example, somehow we found a way to break through that firewall so it is not impossible to do. Critical thinking is the method of release, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, this topic is not new to many of you here, but her talk is concise. She has also written a memoir.

It's food for thought and debate.

T.E.D. is a site for "Ideas worth spreading" as it says.

Cheers!

All righty, then... :)

George

Didn't mean to be abrupt. Was short on time when answering, but that's no excuse for sounding rude, if I did. Sorry...

Cheers!

Okay I was on the thread about the guy pilferig TWI's aramaic work and this was semi refered to and I didn't want to derail that thread so any input would be appreciated.

If that is so What actually did he say?? Was I spared for this Purpose??? or My God why have you left me???

Sorry probably needs to be another thread.

As in star Trek I will make it so!

Yeah, too bad there's no tape...

I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...

Didn't Mike G*d*** work on this project too? I seem to remember him going back to school at U of Chicago for Aramaiac studies prior to him leaving twi. Sorry if I'm asking about someone who might not want their name associated. But those are cool interlinears, and some of that work influenced other stuff that's finding it's way into good Bible software now.

He did go to Univ. of Chicago but focused mostly on Greek. He did not work on these Aramaic projects.

If that is so What actually did he say?? Was I spared for this Purpose??? or My God why have you left me???

Sorry probably needs to be another thread.

As in star Trek I will make it so!

I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...

If I'm not mistaken, the GS poster who goes by "Research Geek" was responsible for a large part of the work.

George

I know who "Research Geek" is and he did work in Greek, he did not work on these Aramaic projects.

VPW, as far as working on these Aramaic projects himself, had NOTHING to do them - not with the translation, interlinear, or concordance. He was interested in producing them, however, because George Lamsa steered him in that direction, claiming Aramaic was the original written language of the scriptures. Other than supporting the work with his interest and using ministry funds to pay Corps people to work on these projects, VPW was not directly involved.

I know. I helped work on these projects in minor ways, doing editing and checking, and was part of the group who completed the Concordance in 1985. My training was primarily from Bernita Jess, the woman who "coordinated" Aramaic studies for years in TWI. There are other threads here on GSC about all this...

Dan Mc*&(%$, who is mentioned above, did not work on these projects while I was involved. He does have a degree from Unvi. of Chicago and focused on Aramaic, but did other textual research and was "stationed" at the Emporia campus, not HQ where these projects were done.

The other people besides me who did work on the Aramaic projects are people I'm not sure want their identies mentioned here. They had degrees and training in Syriac from the Univ. of Chicago. The translation involved in this lawsuit, as far as I know (it was completed after I resigned from the Research Team at HQ in 1986), was not plagiarized. From what I've seen on the Internet at various sites, it is respected as a decent research tool for those interested in such things.

Cheers!

...but i also told her if I went i would like her to come to my church with me and she replied "well since I know they won't be speaking truth, i don't know what I would benefit from it". golly, she is so hard to talk to. it is so stressful!

and when i told her i would go to see her side of things she said "there is no side, this is the truth and the only way" blah!!

but i wasn't saying anything mean towards her , but just listened and asked questions. it is really hard to talk to her anyway with anything regarding God, because she always has to give her two cents and "there is no debating the word" so I can never have a stress free conversation with her about God.

This is a sad commentary, but a common one in fundamentalism. These groups claim to have the only truth. It's hard to admit you might not. I know. I was just like the friend you described until one day I cracked open.

Check out www.TED.com for quick 3 minute talks on the subject by Karen Armstrong. Just type her name in the Search field. You might be surprised at what you discover.

Good night and good luck.

Is there a way to know more about that paper? just from a curious former 8th corps.

From vpw's 6 pg. letter to the Corps dated October 20, 1978: "They got seriously involved and "hooked" into a subject known as eschatology, which is far too advanced for their abilities in research at this time."

fyi - For those interested, here's some info from http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm

"Eschatology is a Christian term that means the study of the end of history from a religious perspective. Probably more obscure theological text has been written on this topic than on any other belief in Christendom. The Bible contains many prophecies about the future. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) in particular talks extensively about the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. This is usually called his "second coming," or "parousia." The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 24, is devoted to this topic, as is much of the book of Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18."

IMO, although vpw went ahead and later invited some of us to be on the team, the clamp down from this episode had lasting effects...

M&A as a term didn't get used when I was involved 1970-1987, but the practice sure was in place. After I left, I first heard the term in 1998 from someone who would know about it.

***************

“I say that religion isn’t about believing things. It’s ethical alchemy. It’s about behaving in a way that changes you, that gives you intimations of holiness and sacredness.” Karen Armstrong, authority on comparative religions

Karen Armstrong’s Wish “I wish that you would help with the creation, launch and propagation of a Charter for Compassion, crafted by a group of leading inspirational thinkers from the three Abrahamic traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and based on the fundamental principles of universal justice and respect.”

Happy belated b/day ex10. Many happy wishes to you for a great year ahead.

Love and hugs,

penworks

Happy belated birthday, Paw. Hope you enjoyed it! Many good wishes for your continued health and happiness and many many thanks for helping us all here at Greasespot by providing this site!

Cheers!

penworks