penworks

I think that this is an extension of the concept of "expanded literal translation according to usage."

<_<

George

On the "Research" team, I used to help write those "literal translations according to usage." Did we think about the fact that a process like that actually contradicted VP's idea that the Word "meant what it said and said what it meant, the order of the words must be perfect...etc.?

We were making ANOTHER TRANSLATION to throw on the pile of a hundred ones already out there.

Okay, I'll pipe down now. Sister Margaret Mary always said I talked too much.

Yes, I still have dreams. Lately, I attribute that to the fact I am writing about my TWI days for a book.

The one the other night: VP wanted 3x5 cards. Anothr girl and I went searching for them desperately and didn't find them...maybe we were looking for those darn missing "originals"...they were printed on 3x5 cards, right? Oh yeah, nobody knows for sure cuz THEY WERE LOST OR DESTROYED!!!

Okay, no more coffee for me...

Peace,

Charlene

If you're doing good, then I, for one, salute you.

But since you're "not asking for anyone's blessing or permission, nor will be persuaded or dissuaded from an endeavor that [you] think is right..." it seems you're merely concerned about perception, or PR, as another poster put it.

That being said, if you're building your "ministry" on PFAL foundations, in my book, you're an offshoot/splinter.

Agree. I retract my comment that you are "asking an honest question" until you show otherwise. It now seems a loaded question, which IMO is not USUALLY honest...

Commentator's notation: I seem to have fallen into the habit of qualifying everything I say recently. That's what a few knee-jerk responses to anything you say can push a person into doing. Oh well, for what my opinions are worth, good luck with your doing-good endeavor, Patriot.

Upside: A box in which all answers were found.

Downside: A box in which all answers were found.

Yes, I heard those recordings. And yes, that was some bad ..... It happened. So, what's your point?

Why are you here?

Yup, the "accuracy & integrity of the Word" was never any more or less than what Wierwille said it was.

I have long thought that PFAL, for all it's sloppy scholarship and kindergarten research, was a master work at getting us to buy into Wierwille's theology.

Wierwille starts off by hammering on the theme of The Word is true, is faithful, is without error etc. Then he shows you that in modern translations there are errors, but then miraculously, through the power of research, solves the problem and voila! no errors. He spends a lot of time contrasting what mainstream churches teach with what he reads for us in black and white, all the while deriding the priests, popes and theologians for teaching otherwise, undermining our trust in anyone other than him! We hardly notice when he stops reading exactly what is written and starts slipping in his own interpretations, and most of us never realize that he's making up definitions and referring to texts and documents that exist only in his mind.

That was my experience with TWI research! Well put.

Here's one example:

Now, turn to your PFAL books to verse - oops I mean page, 127, "Now I said that no translation, let along a version, may properly be called the Word of God."

WHOA. Then what CAN be called the Word of God?

Have you ever wondered what good is *the movement of God`s word*? I mean seriously, isn`t it the folks doin that who seem to feel the most entitled to ensnare, enslave, steal from, and violate using the name of God as their power source and the scriptures to justify their behavior?

Doesn`t it seem like people keep trying to do the same thing most of the time with the best of intentions, whether it be twi of stfi over and over using the same formula and innocent people keep getting hurt?

Maybe we have the formula wrong, or maybe the focus on US *moving the word* is misplaced.

Take one look at this site about John Hagee's ministry and notice how much like TWI it is. They are "moving God's Word" etc. Scary to me how imperative he makes it sound and how twisted The Word of God sounds in this guy's teachings...

BTW - I have a reliable source (I won't reveal who that is) who told me a person very involved with the Bible Lands Tours for this Hagee outfit is a former TWI follower who studied and taught Old Testament history, etc. in TWI.

Can anyone here provide a second source for this info?

Part of losing waybrain is getting to the point that you can actually hear disagreeable things without the "truth alarm" ringing in your head.

I remember when I first started posting on GSC back in 2002 before I left TWI, there was a poster who was a minister of a church. He challenged thoughts ex-wayfers were having. He asked something to this effect: Could you think it was OK for your best friend or family to be Jewish, gay, Pagan, or anything non-Christian without having the "need" to correct them on their beliefs.

At the time I read it, I was thought "No effin way! If someone doesn't want to be Christian, they are screwed spiritually." I don't necessary believe that way anymore. I think everyone should believe how they want to without prejudice as long as they aren't threatening to those around them. There are plenty of Christian types who fit in to the dangerous category.

If we look at history, wars have been based on the need to kill those who lack of acceptance of others' beliefs. Look how many years Israel and the Middle East have been at it. And now we fear for our own soil because the extremist islamics want to see us dead because we are infidels to them whether we are Christian or not. I realize this puts us in the position that we HAVE NO OTHER choice but to kick their arses to protect ourselves.

America was founded on freedom of religion, yet we are so quick to judge if someone isn't of the "norm". If we learned to walk around with less judgment on people, we might learn something.

Tolerance is a scarey word for some people. It raises extreme emotions in quite a few actually. I have to say I have a lot less stress in my life since I've stopped the waybrain train of insanity.

:eusa_clap:

Fascinating thread. Have to say I've come across a lot of these similarities regarding creation myths across cultures, too...

Regarding resurrection stories, have any of you read The Passover Plot by Hugh J. Schoenfield, published in 1965? It was banned in the U.S. for some time. It's a fun and original (I think) way of interpreting the very same verses of the gospel that are used to prove the opposite explanation of the death and resurrection events of Jesus recorded in the gospels.

The paper book jacket states, "...Jesus...sincerely believed himself to be the Messiah of Israel foretold by the prophets, and deliberately plotted his actions - which were to culminate in the events of the Passion Week with his crucifixtion and subsequent resurrection - to bear out the Messianic prophecies.

I won't spoil the ending but...oh heck why not...

Continued from the dust cover:

"...Jesus contrived to be arrested the night before Passover, fully aware that he would be nailed to the cross the following day, but taken down before the onset of the Sabbath in accordance with Jewish law.

Here's where it gets fun:

He would survive the agony of but three hours on the cross. To ensure his safe removal, he arranged to be given, while on the cross, not the traditional vinegar but a drug that would render him unconscious and make him appear dead....he would be nursed back to health and then "resurrected." In the end, he escapes out of the country to continue his revolution...

The Messianic Legacy book is another one along these lines. Fun reading on a rainy night.

Peace,

Penworks

It's always interesting to watch the double standard of people who want us silenced.

"I don't feel bad that twi ruined lives. I was treated nicely in twi.

If vpw went around and drugged and raped women, I don't see why I should have

any emotional response to that at all. After all, I got what I wanted,

why should I care if anyone else's life was ruined?"

So, to them, it's perfectly FINE to ruin lives.

But TALK ABOUT someone ruining lives, oh, and you've committed The Cardinal Sin.

Do ANYTHING but TALK ABOUT someone ruining lives, that's a lot worse than

actually RUINING THE LIVES.

Or is it just that vpw gets a special pass and can ruin lives and do whatever

he wants, but even bringing it up prompts a hypocritical double-standard that

finally triggers outrage?

BTW, if you hear that your sisters in Christ, for whom Christ died,

were assaulted, raped, drugged, molested, or otherwise victimized,

and their assailant used the cloak of religion (like twi) to justify himself,

and your response is APATHY,

Then SHAME ON YOU.

SHAME ON YOU, and shame on the family that failed to teach you proper values as

you grew up.

Jesus was outraged at the exploitation of MONEY in the name of God.

What do you think his response will be when he judges these rapists/molesters/evil-doers?

Thank you for obviating this. Apathy about the seriousness of these matters is beyond belief.

If any of us has knowledge that can help someone else who is in pain but we withhold it, then shame on us.

If any of us has knowledge that sheds light on past events to reveal their nature or their lessons, than I think most would agree that it is our moral obligation to speak up.

Here is one:

I was involved in TWI, and during my time, was Corps and held some different levels of leadership positions. Obviously, I've declared independence, but am still & want to remain zealous for God. Life is really good for us.

Recently, its been on my heart to focus some attention in a specific category of life, and how to apply some Biblical principles in it. Obviously, it starts for my own benefit, but I would really enjoy helping others (whether they were with twi or not) in this category. Am I looking for self-glory or promotion....seriously, NO! Yet, I do not know of anyone else's ministry or church that focuses solely on this category (so it would be kind of a specialty ministry - not to replace other's community church or fellowship, but to provide resources and focus on one important category of life).

I'm not asking for anyone's blessing or permission, nor will be persuaded or dissuaded from an endeavor that I think is right...and may be what God my Father wants me to do.

Question - since I once had involvement with TWI - if I did this, would I then be a 'splinter group'? In such a case, is there any way one could start something, in godly sincerity, that wouldn't be derided as such?

Since you asked an honest question, I'll throw in my two cents along with the others here.

Since you are asking how to avoid being "derided" as an offshoot of TWI just because you at one time were affiliated with it, the advice already given to not charge money and lose the "way-speak" vocabulary is great advice.

I would also add the following:

First, I would seriously ask myself some tough questions about the "biblical principles" you were taught (You didn't say from where, so I don't really know). Ask yourself what they really mean, what you understand about them, how you think they are to be interpreted, how do you apply them, how do you know you're applying them appropriately, and why you think they are good to begin with.

Next, I absolutely caution you about being "zealous for God" and encourage you, again, to question what that means and the effects it produces. Keep in mind some people's concept of God and what He or She does is not the same as yours. Too much zealousness leads to problems I think we're all very familiar with.

Next, If you're basing your ideas at all on TWI's style of research, (which you may not be) just remember TWI research led to teachings founded on the idea that there are originals of the Bible to "get back to," - they do not exist anywhere in the world except in people's minds. Therefore we can't make claims about them, since we've never seen them nor has anyone else.

Lastly, my experience after TWI when approached to join up with other ex-TWI people and start a group was to reject the idea. I discovered the basis for TWI research was the same as most other Christian groups within the framework of Fundamentalism. If I were you, I'd try and find a way outside this framework to "help people."

If you are interested, there are several topics being discussed here at the moment on this topic of offshoots. I suggest you give yourself the chance to read them. One is a discussion on my article currently on the front page, Nostalgia for TWI Research... . Since you are trying to avoid being in that camp, perhaps getting as much info about it as you can would help.

Best wishes for doing good in the world. IMO, we all need to ask ourselves, "what is the good we can do?"

Peace,

Charlene

From these stories it is amazing to me that anyone at all ever works there.

It sounds like anyone would be better off being a convenience store clerk, a pizza tosser, slinging beers at the local pub or doing anything at all rather than putting up with all that nonsense.

In my case, the irony of ironies, was that our limb leader recommended my husband and I apply for jobs at HQ to get a "spiritual boost." He thought we needed that. I knew I needed some sort of change, and in those days, HQ was thought to be the "spiritual center" of the org. That was 1984.

1984, mmm...isn't there a frightening novel by that title?

For more on that "spiritual boost" I got working at HQ, you can read my memoir here on the front page, An Affinity for Windows.

Enjoy!

Charlene

I think that one of the reasons people "rehash the negatives" is because when they were in TWI they were either afraid or conditioned to not to speak their minds about their negative experiences. Many of these experiences are vile and gutwrenching to read about. It is here that they feel safe to say that the emperor had no clothes, if you recall that cute story from childhood.

I was just thinking of that Emperor story today! Especially in regards to the fact there are no "originals" of the Bible texts to "refer back to." I for one was too intimidated to point that out!

Cheers,

Charlene

They'll have a hard time getting rid of it. The guys that run the site are all about free speech and freedom of information.

http://www.archive.org/about/about.php

Good

Sometimes I think there are a few of you here who must have worked as writers for Saturday Night Live or Monty Python.

If we couldn't laugh at some of the past...

Must be why I like M*A*S*H reruns. I've have war vets tell me that's what it takes to survive in that insane environment...a little silly harmless spoofing...

So, thanks.

TWI is too internet stupid to know it's there. Be interesting to see if they try and get their lawyers to take it down. I believe all the relevant documents are at GSC but I have enjoyed seeing the original...lol

Uh, excuse me, but TWI will know about it NOW. You realize they have at least one designated reader of this site, right?

That's one of the nicest things anyone's said!!! Kinda like "I didn't know Paul McCartney was in the Beatles!"

Yeah, some people miss going to the Home page of this site and just log into the Forums all the time. They miss stuff like the list of all the Waydale stuff that's there... :unsure:

Charlene, you are right. Since we don't have any forensic evidence of the writer's/author's cyligaphy(?) or hand writing(notice how Paul loops certaing semetic letters or Issaiah has a certain visual slant) to compare nor their own non-scriptural comment, much less anything from Josephus or early 2nd Cent. Church Fathers to collaborate such matters. Even George Lamsa and Rocco Errico implied that the original manuscript penned by the Biblical writers were often treated as toilet paper or to start fires as kindling shows that the physical papyrus was not worshiped(biblioidolatry)as fundamentalists tend to do.

It is unfortunate all this happened. We're lucky we have translations of versions that are copies of copies of copies of copies, etc. The documents we DO still have are records of a time many people are interested in, to say the least.

I'm wondering, though, about the tendency to downplay the significance of all those fly specs and extra comments in the margins. They can make the difference when it comes to translations.

Any one else have this concern? Is anyone out there reading this who has worked with translating any of the scriptures?

My take on the "good old days" is that each individual sees them as from the beginning of their relationship with TWI.

Gradually, however, people with any brains at all continue to become wiser about the whole TWI thing over time. And as they do, things SEEM to become less and less WONDERFUL, making the "early years" seem like they were better than the present ones.

Some take quite a while to leave TWI. After having done so, eventually (and this can take quite some time) they must admit that the only reason ANY OF IT ever seemed so darned nice was only because of their level of ignorance at the time.

If they actually had known what they were getting into, they would not even have become involved AT ALL!

Remember the old addage, "Hindsight is 20-20"? I believe that fits here.

But now for "the truth" (as I see it):

Ec 7:10 Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.

According to this, supposing that ANY TIME IN THE PAST (the former days) was better than the present is not thinking wisely.

If we are truly living vitally, then things should generally be improving. We are getting wiser all the time when we stay involved and keep our eyes and ears open.

Let us all remember that each day we live is one day closer to the return of Jesus Christ. That alone makes each day BETTER than the ones before. At least that's the way I see it.

In the words of Carly Simon, in his song Anticipation (1971), "... these are the good old days."

SPEC

:)

For me, the interest I had over time became the research of TWI and to me there's nostalgia for that which is driving the creation of the TWI offshoots.

At the risk of tooting my own horn (which I'll go ahead and do as all my writer friends tell me to do), there is a new topic that Pawtucket started for discussion of my article posted on the Home page here.

The name of the post contains the name of the article, Nostalgia for TWI Biblical Research Raises Questions.

Enjoy!

Charlene

Hold everything. Some people can believe that they are not sure they believe in God.

That is another topic that belongs in a different thread, IMO.

I appreciate these lessons in mathmatics and logic lately, but I'd like to drag the conversation back to point of the article:

To show that inerrancy is a premise that disallows genuine research to be done. Why? Because a person who thinks the scriptures must be perfect will only look at evidence to back up their claim.

Part of the post I made last night, which is #38 in this thread)reminded us that:

There are no originals of the text(s) of the Bible to make this claim about.

Fundamentalist are making a claim about something that does not exist. No one has seen the original(s), they were destroyed long ago.

Get it?

I cannot overstate the importance of this point.

I'll use VPW's quote here because we are dicussing TWI and its offshoots that adopt the same premises he did for researching the Bible:

PFAL book, pg.128:

"What students or scholars refer to as originals really date from 430 and later. These manuscripts are not originals [he's right about that]...at best we have copies of the originals. [most scholars say we have copies of copies of copies of copies etc. of the originals]. When I refer to the Word of God, I do not mean a copy or a translation or a version; I mean that Word of God which was originally given by revelation to holy men."

Did VPW ever show us these originals? NO. He did not have them. Nobody does.

When he refered to "the Word of God" he refered to what he THOUGHT the Word of God must be.

The claim of inerrancy is an assumption made about something that does not exist.

No one can point to the originals and say, "See these are perfect, without contradiction, they are inerrant."

Why? Because no one has them. Cough, cough. They should be embarrassed if nothing else about making such a claim.

It is easy to make a claim about something that does not exist.

I can claim the "original" moon was made of cheese and no one can prove me wrong. There's no original moon for anyone to examine who might want to prove me wrong.

The amazing thing is that I could get some people to BELIEVE my claim about the original moon made of cheese or something else that does not exist.

There are always people, given certain circumstances, who will believe (and I was one in TWI and may very well be one again some other time) even the most outrageous claims made by the most sincere and kind people.

I suspect we all can think of examples...

Topic Disclaimer:

What this post is NOT:

This post is not intended to destroy anyone's belief in God or the sacredness of the scriptures, or any religious beliefs or lack of them.

This post is not an attack on God or a way to dispute His (or Her) existence or non-existence.

These ideas IMO would be

What this post IS:

An attempt to use critical thinking regarding the physical texts of the Bible and to remind everyone of the fact - which most of us already know - that there are no original texts of the scriptures about which we can even make a claim of inerrancy. Most people seem to forget this.

Why remind us of this?

Because inerrancy is the cornerstone of TWI research and is till being perpetuated in offshoot groups who claim their beliefs as THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD. This has been proven time and time again to lead people into making bad decisions for their lives and families. That's what I find a problem with. If you want examples, roam around the topics here at GSC and you'll find them aplenty.

If some people still want to BELIEVE in inerrancy, fine, they have that choice.

I simply ask those people one thing:

Please have the courtesy to say inerrancy is your BELIEF, and not say it is THE TRUTH which everyone else must accept.

Peace,

Charlene

Now, back to the "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" shared with us on the previous page...now THAT'S funny!

"Is the Spanish Inquisition next on the calendar?"

:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Ha, I edited that out just as you commented on it...but glad you liked it. I felt it was too snippy but since you liked it, enjoy! Thanks and good night.

Charlene

Also, a lot of the young folks today in twi, who were born in the 80s and 90s, seem to be nostalgic for the 70s. They weren't there. . . . Don't know what to think about that . . . My word is as good as theirs.

This is a major reason I wrote my article. Some of my daughter's friends who were raised in twi still believe VPW is their father in "the word." They have no idea of the meaning of these terms, or rather the FALSITY of them.

These people are now more than 30 years old and swimming around in a fog believing this hideous assertion of VP as their spiritual Father in The Word and are clueless as to what the term "The Word" means, which I was too because I didn't stop and realize it refers to something that does not exist: the originals of the Bible texts.

VPW himself pointed this out in PFAL. I just didn't THINK about the implications back then when I was only 18 years old.

PFAL book, pg.128: "What students or scholars refer to as originals really date from 430 and later. These manuscripts are not originals [he's right about that]...at best we have copies of the originals. [most scholars say we have copies of copies of copies of copies etc. of the originals]. When I refer to the Word of God, I do not mean a copy or a translation or a version; I mean that Word of God which was originally given by revelation to holy men."

BUT NO ONE HAS THEM. ORIGINALS DO NOT EXIST. How do you refer to something that does not exist? The term "the Word of God" does not refer to any thing in our possession.

These kids have no knowledge of the fact that there are no originals of the Bible texts about which the claim of "perfect" was made by VPW and is made by Fundamentalists. It's made about something THAT DOES NOT EXIST. Am I repeating myself? Yes. On purpose.

My daughter struggles with how to penetrate this thinking her friends have, that NEVER was addressed by their own parents. For various reasons, I'm sure.

As a parent, I felt it imperative that I try and sort out what the heck I had been believing all those years so I could explain to my child why I left such a system and just why it was not good for me or for her. She was 12 years old when we left. It's an ongoing process but thankfully has not held us back from creating new, productive lives.

BTW - I'm sure some readers will not agree with me about the non-existence of "The Word" but I welcome their ideas. But I'll say right off that I think most of those "keys to research" that VPW preached in order to "get back to the original" don't fit the locks. They are subjective tools used to create someone's interpretation of whatever version they're using. That's another thread or topic or article, though...

For this second generation, there are sources of Way history and practices that cover the 1970s like The Cult that Snapped, Losing The Way, 2 books by TheWritingMachine, a couple of other memoirs, and tons of information written here at GSC by people who were around in the 70s.

Of course, the problem is, as I have heard it, may of these kids (who are adults now) would NEVER DARE read any of it for fear of getting possessed by devil spirits or something. Has anyone else heard this fear they have? Good grief. Are we still living in the dark ages?

I've heard rumors that these kids (again, they're actually adults now) think GSC is full of "negatives" about twi and that's just not "acceptable" to say the least. On the other hand, I had a professor from Rollins write me today and say how civil the dicussion on this thread was and complimented the people here at GSC on that. Kudos to ya'll.

It's my hope that somehow this second generation can start thinking for themselves...it may take more work than they expect, so I suggest they start ASAP.

That's it for tonight. Thanks everyone for listening and contributing to this thread. I've learned so much from you.

Charlene

Okay, one last book recommendation and I'm done for now.

Emotional Awareness - A Conversation Between the Dalai Lama and Paul Ekman, PhD. Forward by Daniel Goleman.

It's about overcoming the obstacles to psychological balance and compassion. I read it because religious issues are often emotional ones and I needed help in dealing with them. I'm still working on it.

I found it HELPFUL, just sayin'...

Cheers,

Penworks

I normally steer clear of these discussions, careful to not discourage any questions that were suppressed in the first place. Nobody wants to hear that they were wrong and told years of their lives were wasted in smoke and mirrors. That is clear in your doctrinal forums. I read there and will post on occasion.

What is it about an article written by another ex-cult member who obviously leans heavily on someone else's insight, Karen Armstrong, that has you questioning the very basis of your faith? The resurrection of Jesus.

That is not a judgment it is a question. What are Penwork's qualifications in this area? Is He/she a bible scholar?

How are you so easily swayed?

Maybe you never believed it or understood it in the first place? Fine. If that is the case, wouldn't you go to the experts, like William Lane Craig who has for years studied the evidence for the resurrection and is a qualified and credentialed scholar? No, we have been taught to distrust them.

In six weeks it could be someone else here and their opinion and will that make you question this?

Wierwille trained us well. He trained us to follow people and their "new light."

I am surprised that in 72 hours you can question the basis of your faith on the basis of a few people's opinons. Every author I read on that list is refuted by another scholar. Are you going to read them all?

There is always Oprah, Eckhart Tolle, or Doctor Oz. Long after this crop of pop culture critics is gone the bible will still be here and Jesus will still have been raised from the dead.

Thanks for chiming in here. You raise important issues. I would like to refer back to the statements I made in post #25 above as a reminder that I am asking questions, just like everyone else. That's what led me to the place where I am in now.

I lean heavily on the still small voice and find inspiration in the words of many writers on these topics, and as I said in the statement above the booklist, " Here is a reading list that may be useful."

If it is not useful to you, don't read them.

That list and the article were intended to be my personal contributions to the conversations here at GSC.

I'd like to point out that even though you might not have intended this, when the following types of statements are made they come across as trying to intimidate the reader:

"I am surprised that in 72 hours you can question the basis of your faith on the basis of a few people's opinons. Every author I read on that list is refuted by another scholar. Are you going to read them all?"

Maybe she is going to read them all. She's a grown up, she can make up her own mind. It's safe to say she's on her own journey like the rest of us who are sorting things out.

At this point, I'd like to remind everyone of the opening line of my article which makes it clear who my intended audience was:

"Are you someone questioning the value of Biblical research done by The Way International (TWI) or groups run by former Way followers? I am. If you are, then what I have to say may interest you."

If you're not questioning, then disregard my article in good old File 13. It's only my contribution, one person's opinion, not the "truth" of the matter certainly nor the end of my own "reading" life certainly.

No, I'm not a bible scholar. That's clear from my memoir and bio at the end.

I just ask questions. I just like to think and read...

Cheers!

Now I'm pretty angry.

I'd like to have the money I handed over......I thought it would be a blessing used for teaching others about God Almighty. Instead, much of it is feathering rfr's mattress (figuratively).

I would like to have some of the time back too. I would have loved working with my handbell choir, continuing my own music lessons, being at my children's games etc on a more consistent basis. And I surely would have been better all around if I had more than 4 1/2 hours sleep half the time.

But the past is the past. It's on the other side of the gate and I can't go there again. But what I can do is learn a better way.

So I have some questions:

What do we do now with speaking in tongues?

what about some of the manifestations?

Was there even a resurrection?

These are honest questions and since I started all this whirlwind, I'll try to say something here...

I think each person would want to address them on their own. They are, IMO, matters of faith not reason. I venture to say that some people form beliefs about them without necessarily accepting the idea that the Bible is "perfect." To me, they are matters to which theology poses answers.

Theology (the study of the nature of God and religious issues) is a big topic with a long history, and since I am not a theologian, I can't offer answers to these questions.

What I can offer is my view: that there are no pat answers.

The challenge is to admit we're always taking someone's word (for the most part) for whatever "answers" come our way about anything.

We trust a lot of things for which we do not have "proof" or understand (except maybe you scientists out there) - like electricity. We can't see it, hear it, smell it, taste it or touch it (hope not) but it is real and we rely on it.

For me, trusting what even VPW used to call "the still small voice" inside (isn't it ironic that even HE used to encourage us to do that?) is what's been the best help to me over the years post-TWI.

Willima James masterpiece, The Varieties of Religious Experience, is a good source for thinking about these issues, too. It's huge, though. I've only read some of it but found it helpful...and comforting.

Enjoy life! We only get one (as far as I know )

Cheers!

Charlene

For me, a fundamentalist, it is not only reasonable but also makes the Bible more than just a bunch of short stories. It makes more sense to me to believe ALL of it than to pick and choose.

George

I've been thinking about these sorts of things a long time, myself. One thing I found is that there are other ways to value the Bible besides thinkig it is has to be either "God's Word" (thereby it has to be perfect because God is perfect) or a "bunch of stories" like you said. When someone says "a bunch of stories" to me it seems to belittle the documents in the Bible. I don't think we need to do that. I don't think you intended that, right?

There are other good options to valuing the literature of the Bible that respect the culture and writers of these documents. After all, it's a book of rich imagery, myth, cultural viewpoints, personal accounts, and yes, there are stories - good ones that teach interesting lessons - and there is much wisdom to be found between those two covers, in my view it is mostly found in Ecclesiates and parts of Proverbs, for instance. But IMO it should not be my only rule of faith and practice, nor should I attribute to it qualities it does not have. And it is unfair of me to expect it to apply to me today in most instances. That's where we run into trouble accusing people of not being believers like they did in the epistles of Paul. But that's another long story...

Anyway, I think one thing we face in this discussion is VPW's tendency to pose EITHER/OR questions. That thinking forces us to make a choice between only those two ways of looking at the Bible. It rules out FOR US any other ways. I know one thing, it certainly intimidated me from investigating other ways and making up my own mind.

This is a big topic, so I'll stop for now.

My intention here is just to shed a little more light on this subject than I did in the article on the front page.

Cheers!