rascal

Groucho, I wasn`t thinking of you when I made my post. I remember you all the way back to way dale. You have never wavered in your denouncement of wierwille and twi...lol It just took a few years for some of us to catch on is all :)

Well Ben, I am not so sure about God always loving us. I mean doesn`t he talk about those he has turned over to darkness? What about those with a seared conscience? Seared means they are burned ...damaged....no? Isn`t there such a thing as an unforgivable sin? How many twi people are seared and don`t even know it...our arrogance in our knowledge being the ticket that we think is going to get us into heaven?

I don`t know t&o, I didn`t see Jesus exhorting folks to do that to the pharacees that hurt people in God`s name. He called them vipers, and whited sepulchers filled with death and disease. It seems to me like there was a different standard or criteria for what we were supposed to do.

Thanks Ben, I guess that I have seen and read of great evil practiced by VPW and those he taught, including LCM. When the harm is deliberate and malicious, perpetrated in God`s name. These guys were confronted with the evil that they were doing, and instead of sorrow and Godly repentance....threw out and maligned those who tried to hold them accountable for their actions. I wonder if that is what *seared conscience* means...obviously these people were too arrogant in their self rightiousness to think that they needed to change. Apparently God does give up onn people at some point and turns them over to darkness. I don`t remember Jesus showing great compassion to the pharacees. Were they any doing any differently than lcm and vpw?

Wow Skyrider, Very interesting observation. I know that it was in the advanced class that I came to the realization that I had to decide if I really believed this stuff, and that IF I did, that it behooved me to commit myself and my life to being the best I could be for God in the spiritual battle. I wanted to help him any way I could. I didn`t have natural leadership ability, which is what kept k,me from entering the corpes before that. I came to the firm conclusion that if he needed me on the front lines spiritually, then he would darned well have to develop some within me. It dawns on me that up until the advanced class, I probably still had doubts and could have left.

Trust and obey, I could agree with you as far as normal people who screw up, repent, seek and receive forgiveness. What about the people who don`t give a damn who they hurt, and in their arrogance don`t see the need to change or repent? I agree mstar, I think that wierwille and martindale hid their sins behind their religions and the religious organizations. Whether they started out with this in mind...I don`t know...wierwille it is pretty certain judging from history...I think he might have seduc4ed martindale who seems to have just been a big dumb jock. Great point about Paul Mr. Ham...about given the chance to change and doing great things, or saying f u. LOL OCW, UN witnessing. I once had a very vivid dream where I found myself on the wow field again...only THIS time I was just sick to realize that I didn`t believe any of it any more, but I had committed myself to one years and must follow through with my vow. In my dream just when I was the most desperate... God said to me...yohhhh your going to witness for me alright......it`s just that you are going to get people out of twi without being caught...lol undercover wow I guess :) ihrleben...Can I call you ben for short?? Welcome to greasespot! Thanks for your reply. So martindale starts out with good intentions, he learns arrogance and pride from wierwille...they both reject the Godly councel and reproof of any who were sent....In their arrogance they not only hurt others, but they taught others to abuse as well. Would you say that the difference between a screw up and evil...is defined by who seeks repentance? Why is it that some people are moved with sorrow and compassion when confronted by God like David and Paul who repented and changed? Why did some others engender great anger and vehement denouncment like the pharacees and money changers...or even God help us, the instantanious death of Annanias and Saphira? There seems to be a difference in the regard, treatment and punishment of a screw up, and the condemnation of one who is just plain evil. What is it that constitutes evil...a seared conscience that God turns his back on? Is it the arrogance, the refusal to recognize that we are wrong when confronted that differentiates between screw up and needs to be forgiven, or evil and needs to be condemned?? Is it when we move from practicing evil, to actively harming others that sets us apart? Is it when we lie or cheat or steal as in Annanias and Saphiras case? Is this a definition of what we encountered in twi?

You know? in formulating an answer for another thread, I got to thinking about something. People for the longest time have been excusing or understanding the atrocities of what vpw, and his buddies did in light of ...well everyone sins and falls short...who are we to judge? Why did Jesus have two markedly different approaches to people and the sins they committed? on the one hand, he showed great compassion to the woman caught in adultery, or the father who needed help because of his unbelief, for his disciples when they screwed up, even for Judas who betrayed him. Where as with the pharacees he condemned them, called them vile names, he chased the money changers out of the temple turning over tables in his anger. It seems there is a definite difference between being a screw up, and being evil. It seems to me that when you use God`s name and the scriptures to blackmail or coerce people into obedience, into accepting abuse and outragious treatment, to expect them to accept degradation and humiliation because the man of God claims this is God`s will.... I think THERE is where you cross the line from being a sinner that has fallen short...and move into pure unbridled evil. You know when vp or lcm did not recieve what they wanted...they set out to completely destroy the person who dissapointed them. They made sure that person, their reputation, their world was utterly and completely destroyed. That they had no access to the body of believers, tried to destroy any relationship they might have with their family....even if that person was in the right....tried to convince them that they were possessed and working for satan....tried to convince them that even God can`t stand them.... When they do these things, using their title as a man of God for power, and the scriptures to facilitate and enable them to usurp someone elses freedom of will....to cause great harm in God`s name, I think you have the difference between simply *falling short* and a *seared conscience* Come to think about it...even GOD turns his back on those who have a seared conscience. This is an evil that goes beyond the pale of simply falling short imo.

Well, I certainly don`t see a lack of people taking responsibility for their own foolishness. Geemany who doesn`t feel stupid? But maybe, just maybe there were folks that were doing their very best to love God, and were naieve enough to believe that was everyone elses motive. Maybe, part of being ....ed off at leaders isn`t because they sinned and were under greater scrutiny, but at the leader who took that which wasn`t theirs, that which they desired, in the name of the God that we were trying to love and serve. They said God requires this, and You have to do this, and you have to do that , give this, eschew that, endure this brutality, suffer this shame and degradation in silence, jump when we say jump.... in order to love God, in order to be under his protection, in order to grow and become spiritual. What we were required to do for God, we what was done to us in the name of God would have NEVER been tolerated from a man. We were told that these men spoke for God, to disobey them, was to disobey God. I am telling you, it isn`t about personal sins for me any way. Shoot, I could care less...that`s between them and God. It is when a leader seduced, broke up families, forced abortions, physically and sexually abused women and children, extorted money, and time, etc..under the guise of being GOD`S minister. I am the man of God, do this or you won`t have access to God.... Call me simplistic, or thinking in black and white, but I think that is the line of demarkation, the difference if you will between simply being *sinful* and down right evil. I think THAT is the difference between the compassion that Jesus showed people and understanding of sin, like the woman caught in adultery, and the complete disgust with which he condemned the saducees and pharacees. Pray for em if you want, but I hope they get whats coming to them for what they used God`s name to steal, and scriptures to facilitate and justify the sating of their lusts and perversions.

I see that I am in good company, and can hold my head up with pride....:)

Yes, here is part of the story that I posted under *testimonies* in the open forum. Most here have read it, but here it is again. I was very young when I got involved in the ministry. I went out wow as soon as I turned 18. I was discouraged from going back home because I was told there weren`t any fellowships and that I would die *spiritually* if I returned. I moved into a way home with the city coordinator who was interim corp. I had a wonderful year being gently taught. The hardships of an Alabama girl learning to live in the brutal North Dakota climate were made bearable by the wonderful lady who lovingly cared for all of the believers under her watch. At the end of her year, She asked would I keep the house and accept the new interim leaders family as my room mates. I eagerly agreed, thinking that God had another year of action packed adventure and growth in store for me by allowing me to live once again with leaders. Whew, what a dissapointment. The new leaders arrived and were immediately dissatisfied with every aspect of the house, the town and the believers. Our home that had been so carefully chosen with fellowship and classes in mind had a huge great room, it was centrally located to all of the believers, it was in one of the nicer sections of town. The Wife hated it, she hated Fargo and most of all she REALLY hated me. The dishes weren`t to her liking, the cooking utensils not complete to her satisfaction...Though I paid one third of the rent, I was required to share a bed room with their 6 yr old daughter. Whatever I did, it was done wrong, why hadn`t I done it thus and such way. I was 18 maybe 19 yrs old at this time, and jobs in Fargo were scarce, especially for someone who had only been a waitress. There were two restaurants in town and I fortunately had a job on 3rd shift at one of them. Well, my job was evil because I was out after midnight, I was a loser because I couldn`t find anything better. She wanted the entire house vaccumed by 8 am every morning. I would vaccume every night before I would leave for work, but then they would eat pop corn and make a mess all evening. Well, I got off at 4 or 5 am and would come home and sleep. She would then wake me up at 8 snarling at me for not having taken care of my daily responsibility. It isn`t like I could vaccume at 5 am and wake everyone up. I would be harangued about my laziness and being a sluggard and my lack of believing in not having a job during decent hours....I would numbly vaccume, exhausted mutely bearing the brunt of her criticizm. Broken because I had been taught that leadership spoke for God. That God told leadership how to best help us...and this lady let me know just what a screw up I was I couldn`t figure out how I had become such a bad person so quickly. I tried desperately to be the believer that God wanted me to be. It all came to a head one morning after about three months of meanness. I had once again vaccumed the house gone to work and put in a full shift/ i had returned home and only slept an hour when the morning routine began. Something snapped inside and I told the woman to please leave me alone, that I would take care of my responsibility when I got up at noon. What was this? the lowly peon dared to talk back?Huh Oh my goodness, the woman went ballistic, she was incensed, and grabbed my leg and hauled until she pulled me off of the bed and I landed on the floor with a jolt. I jumped up and told her to leave me the he ll alone! OH geeeze The woman started shrieking hysterically to her terrified 6 year old daughter standing there to *leave the room* *This person was POSESSED*!!! Something died right then and there in side of me.....I was absolutely sickened with shame and horror. I will never forget the look of terror in the little girls eyes as she fled. Hell, I wished that I could have run away from me too. It of course never occured to me to doubt what this leader said. She was rebuking Satan and swearing at me. It was all surreal...like a night mare. I brokenly just started packing my things up. I started loading my car. I had some vague half formed plan of driving myself and my two dogs off of the red river bridge and drowning. I know that this sounds nuts...but I didn`t WANT to live if I had darkness inside of me. I did NOT want to be alive if I was possessed. I did NOT want to hurt any body with my evilness. Most of all I couldn`t live with the shame of all of the people who so lovingly nurtured me as a young Christian knowing how vile I had become. I cried brokenly, not understanding how I could go from a beloved valuable family member in the body of Christ in three short months to being possessed by satan. It took me an hour to gather my most important belongings. I left them the house, rented in my name with all of the deposits, the utilities and their deposits, the phone, the furniture, dishes etc. I took my most personal belongings while she followed me screamimg, rebuking, darned near frothing in her rage. I took my two dogs and got in my car and left. Broken ... I did not know how I had become possessed. I couldn`t understand how to not be possessed. I couldn`t go to anybody and TELL them that I was possessed. I was so desperatly alone...I couldn`t even turn to God...how dare I, if I were possessed? I was just a stench in his nostrils, a disapointment, a spiritually nasty vile being. I was horrified, I was ashamed, I loathed myself, I couldn`t live with being evil and not even knowing that I was evil and not having a clue as to how I had gotten that way ...when I had done my very best to be a doulos to God...what if I inadvertently infected someone else?? You can read the rest of the account in the open forum, as it turned out that the bc`s wife was simply just ....ed because she had informed God that she was to be sent to California on her assignment, I suppose that I was just the most convenient target. It was unjust and very cruel, and many years before I could tell the story for fear that someone might agree with her.

Bumped...as per requested. Thanks guys. I think that was what was so humbling, the fact that God cared enough that I recieved the message, that he made darned sure that the self doubt, the recriminations, the self loathing couldn`t return and steal that peace from me.

That is so sad...so sick. I remember how staunchly I defended the ministry and these guys. How offended I was when anyone tried to tell me that the ministry was a cult...or that vp was anything other than the most kindest, generous, noble, gallant hero in the world... God what a fool I was. Not only was he fornicating his brains out, committing adultery...but pushing perversions on mothers daughters and grand daughters...it was so much worse than anyone...even the most vehement of twi attackers ever realized :(

:)

What about these guys who thought that their way corpes education really did make them capable of diagnoing and treating mental illness. I remember one time....a wtf? moment. When I had to deal with John Townsend over something...there were some serious issues with stuff going on on the wow field in our group....... I was fc, ap c and so was my bu tt was the one being questioned.. Well anyway, we had never really spent time one on one or talked much. But he goes into describing me as someone that went along for long periods of time really really high and up beat...but then when I crashed I was very very low....that I needed to recognize this in myself.....and I am thinking..WHAT??? When have we EVER spoken, that you would get that impression??? I think I had only been there a month or so. Now...I understand that files were kept on all of us...I am guessing in hindsight, that some dufus had apparently taken it upon themselves to diagnose me...what kills me, is I never spent any amount of time with any OTHER state leader in order to have that determined either. Maybe it was be revelation or something..lol I don`t know It is my understanding that licensed, legitimate health care professionals that are qualified to make that sort of assertion, generally spend time with a person in order to correctly diagnose these problems... Shoot and once diagnosing one...wouldn`t it be prudent at least let the person in question KNOW that they are sick?? My point is, that in going through the corpes, people I knew seemed to think that they were competent to diagnose and treat people....I know someone that died because the warning signs were ignored, his problems not addressed. It is very dangerous to think and act as if you are qualified. To discourage people from getting the real help that they need. Get the wrong person trying to make themselves look impressive in their reports...and you have some pretty nasty insinuations that can follow you from state to state.

Well I did to, rejoice, until kiddo number 7 and 40 hit...lol there just isn`t much you can do after that. Today, I am a pudgy middle aged woman, and I am good with that. :) Isn`t it ironic that the fellows were permitted to get fat, abusive, alcoholic, loose their hair and treat their spouses abominably...and there were no dark threats or dire consequences....if we were better wives...that just never was going to happen What a sick broken system. I am mortified that I was in complete agreement. Hi, my name is Cathy and I....am a koolaid drinker :(

Not stupid...no I can`t answer because it all seems repugnant to me. I can only surmise that as with anything in twi...if the moggy liked it...it was ok. All things lawfull to them which are in christ....blah blah...all parts of the body equal...not sin if both parties can handle it... For some reason women together, (and I have noticed it with supporters of vp as well) were not as offensive as men. I have seen the same guys who were not particularly bothered by women being required to submit sexually or getting raped...get highly indignant when asked what if the moggy had liked young teen aged boys and THEY had been bent over a chair and told that God required it. That is a whole nother kettle of fish in their mind.

Thanks Krys. You and Jane are correct. I will delete my posts now that they are on a new thread. I just didn`t want to horn in or deflect from your already heart wrenching account. It needs to stand on it`s own, alone.

Sometimes they messed up...miscalculated like with the person who related this story, and Dot, and a few others. People who stood up and said NO, and that they were wrong.... My point is that they were very very good at what they did. Many times, one would feel like they had no way out.... Whether it was concerning sexual servitude, physical abuse, leaders abusing ones children, forced abortions, families divided ... one felt powerless to resist. It was all viewed as the obedience required by God.

Ok...factor in the drugging that went on...you wake up in the middle of the night in bed with the mog...the next day damage control moves into congratulate you for your spiritual maturity, for having a special ministry.... How about the fact that these predators had birth to corpes papers...they knew who had been sexually abused, who had been raped who had been neglected...who had no clear example or boundaries....they knew which buttons to push. Their indoctrination was finely tuned to appeal ...to offer that which was the most ardently desired by the targeted victim....peace...healing...acceptance...value.... They were chosen, they were groomed, and they were closely monitored afterwards.

Done.

The question arose on the ten year thread if one knew how young women were recruited to sexual servitude in twi. SOmeone once told me about her experience, and I shared it here. I was asked to take my reply there and start a new thread. There was a poster who once shared with a group of us, how she went into the way corpes, young idealistic with every intention of learning to be her best for God. I can only hope that she wouldn`t mind me sharing some of the points that I remember. She said that shortly after her arrival, that she was surrounded by highly placed individuals. Her twig coordinator and her work coordinator, the people in her fellowship... began including her in a pretty exclusive group...the details on this are fuzzy to me now...but When relating the story....she told of how everyone around her was always sharing stuff about how a mog needed his needs to be met so that he could minister to the rest of the body. How that it was an honorable thing...to ensure that there were no distractions to keep him from being his best. Like I said...sometimes the stories jumble together in my head....but it seems like there were talks about all parts of the body being the same...etc...anyway...this girl shared with us, that in her naievety, she never dreamed that these people that had surrounded and isolated her were referring to sex. It finally came to a head one day when her work or tc (I cant` remember which) informed her that lcm desired her for a threesome. I don`t know if this was when lcm was there...or if she was then brought to him. When telling this story, it had the feel to me of her being prepared like a well seasoned dish cooked to perfection and served up to the mog on a silver platter....She was told that this was what her long suit was...yadda yadda....well this poor girl freaked...having not had a clue as to what all of the previous insinuations and teachings were anything other than what they appeared to be on the surface....FREAKED...and declined. She was escorted back to her room, not allowed to speak to anyone, required to pack under their watchful eye, and escorted off grounds. It took her a while to get back to her home state...in which time everyone she ever knew had been told that she was possessed with devil spirits and were they not to speak to her. She had nobody. She said that she darned near didn`t survive. Put yourself in this girls shoes....Surrounded by the most spiritual people you know. The people who have complete control and direction in your life, your tc, whom you must obey, your work boss whom you are accustomed to obeying...all of your new friends, you have no others because you were separated from the rest of your group early on...you have no family or support system outside of this because you have been told to burn all of your bridges....you are then presented to the man of God the man chosen by God to present the light of God to the world...the most important man in your universe....the fate of the ministry, your brothers and sister, the entire world and everything you care about requires this little thing of you in order to be his best fro everyone else....you have been instructed for months on why this is ok and how necessary.... Now it is all on your shoulders....How many would have had the courage to look into the mon of God`s face with your tc standing right beside you and say NO! How many can see themselves numb with shock ... led unresisting as the realization of what all of those teachings really meant....come crashing back in understanding.....who has time to think..time to formulate objections.... Who would numbly comply? Shock and disbelief suspended...afraid...unable to resist... Throw in possibly being plied with drinks..... OK, now imagine afterwards... after the numbness and the shock wear off, as it begins dawning on you what has been done...you have your special friends surrounding you, congratulating you on what a little hero you are for taking care of the man of God. You are patted on the back and congratulated for your spiritualit maturity, and ability to handle these deeper truths about the freedom we have in Christ....Assured that this is YOUR special ministry.... Wouldn`t you WANT to believe that ?? Would you not try to convince yourself that the voice inside your head screaming denial and repugnance is simply just your 5 senses trying to decieve you?? Would you smother the protest, mask your feelings of revulsion...try to believe what they were telling you....rather than consider the alternative??? That the ministry and everything that you have based your life and belief in, that you have given up family and friends, college and career ...that you have decided to commit your life in service to ...is nothing more than a viscious little cult that exploits people for money and sex sad.gif I know in my heart what I would have done. Is it any wonder that there were so many suicides?? Is it any wonder why the women who succumbed would do anything to retain that image of themselves as special and on a Godly mission...even now years after the fact??? I know sad.gif If you think I ought to, I could move all of this to a new thread about how the people were manipulated and seduced. Your call, I don`t want to monopolize this already important thread.

Geemany, I don`t know how I did this....double thread, I am very sorry. Moderators, could you please delete this for me??

moved

moved to new thread to avoid derail.

Chockfull, I don`t want to answer for Krys` dil, but I can tell you what a girl shared with me about being recruited. Just let me know if it is appropriate here on Krys` thread.